Why do people feel sorry for Theon Greyjoy?

[Dreadwolf]

My preferred view is that Theon's most morally reprehensible action (the killing of the Miller's kids) was subject to mitigating circumstances (namely desperation, remorse, and an evil counsellor). I do not, however, consider it irrelevant to bring up Tyrion having a man turned into stew. Essentially, Tyrion's most morally repugnant action* does, if you excuse the pun, arguably dwarf Theon's (Tyrion had, in my opinion, fewer mitigating circumstances). Yet Tyrion never gets the vicious condemnation that Theon does - people feel the need to start threads about why people feel sorry for Theon, yet anyone who expresses fondness for Tyrion is regarded as entirely normal.

*If we do consider this to be it, rather than, say, his murder of Tywin

If we want to be fair when placing Theon next to Tyrion we must look not only for their worst actions. I agree that no good deed can compensate the evil one but we are talking about peoples' hate and love. Moreover one of the first and as it seems outstanding argument to the benefit of the poor Greyjoy boy is that his life is very complex and so on.

Well let's then take a look at their good sides.( so as to say in their full complexity)

We have Tyrion:

- give a very good piece of advice to Jon for free,

- made a special riding saddle for Bran, (this matters much to me)

- behave as a real man shall behave himself in a situation like that with Sansa,

- trying (upto his best) to serve justice when he was a hand in KL.

what we have for the best of Theon

- demostrated an excellent shot by his favorit crossbow - saving Bran

- was ready to cross swords with Kingslayer

- feeling unhappy for he has harmed Rob's cause, and for that he must do some atrocity at Winterfell, at will and dreaming nighmares therafter

- something I have missed (Oh yes tried to appease lady Catelyn Stark promising her things he then ... well we know what happened)

IMHO all that tipped the ballance in the right direction...

If forcibly taking ten year old boys away and holding them hostage is OK because it's normal, then committing murder in the name of political expediency is OK too - because it is also certainly normal in Westeros. Normality doesn't necessarily imply that it's OK.

I would call this comparison hyperbole.

Like I said several times - many conquerors did 'the right thing' immediately after smashing the rebels (or taking sufficient adavantage over their political enemies). They call that Proscription (proscriptio) in Rome and Lucius Cornelius Sulla was claimed as the first who introduced the mass proscription in political life. Then it became very popular. There were no doubt other forms for political vengence before that time - some of them no less terrifying. So I think Robert and Ned must be admitted some dignity and valour for they had respected their brave enemy once he had been defeated.

[Krafus]

Roose;

My preferred view is that Theon's most morally reprehensible action (the killing of the Miller's kids) was subject to mitigating circumstances (namely desperation, remorse, and an evil counsellor). I do not, however, consider it irrelevant to bring up Tyrion having a man turned into stew. Essentially, Tyrion's most morally repugnant action* does, if you excuse the pun, arguably dwarf Theon's (Tyrion had, in my opinion, fewer mitigating circumstances). Yet Tyrion never gets the vicious condemnation that Theon does - people feel the need to start threads about why people feel sorry for Theon, yet anyone who expresses fondness for Tyrion is regarded as entirely normal.

Tyrion initially intended to give Symon Silver Tongue a bag of gold and have Bronn escort him to Duskendale. Tyrion intended to let Symon live. It was only after Symon made his threat to sing his song revealing to everyone that Shae was Tyrion's bedwarmer - in other words, after Symon directly threatened Shae, whom I believe Tyrion loved by that point, and indirectly threatened Tyrion himself - that Tyrion decided to have him killed.

In contrast, Theon had two innocent kids who had never done him any harm murdered, and he did that purely for his own benefit.

I'm not saying that what Tyrion did to Symon was noble and just, but what Theon did was IMO much worse in comparison. And this comparison ignores the other differences between Tyrion and Theon that, to many, make the former more sympathetic than the latter.

[Watcher]

My preferred view is that Theon's most morally reprehensible action (the killing of the Miller's kids) was subject to mitigating circumstances (namely desperation, remorse, and an evil counsellor). I do not, however, consider it irrelevant to bring up Tyrion having a man turned into stew. Essentially, Tyrion's most morally repugnant action* does, if you excuse the pun, arguably dwarf Theon's (Tyrion had, in my opinion, fewer mitigating circumstances). Yet Tyrion never gets the vicious condemnation that Theon does - people feel the need to start threads about why people feel sorry for Theon, yet anyone who expresses fondness for Tyrion is regarded as entirely normal.

*If we do consider this to be it, rather than, say, his murder of Tywin

Id' argue that Tyrion's most repugnant act was treason and the betrayal of the people in the Vale. His arming of the mountain clans is a direct violation of the feudal system and his role as the Hand to the realm. Despite that I can still respect Tyrion and feel nothing but contempt for Theon. You can name me a hypocrite if you want. atever. It does nothing to make me understand why I should change my opinion about Theon.

If forcibly taking ten year old boys away and holding them hostage is OK because it's normal, then committing murder in the name of political expediency is OK too - because it is also certainly normal in Westeros. Normality doesn't necessarily imply that it's OK.

No, you can't equate ending someone's life for political reasons with holding a sibling hostage after their family rebelled. But more to the point it still does nothing to make me like Theon better. My point was that hostage holding is common in Westoros. There was no stigma to it. But Theon is to self-absorbed to figure out how he could've used his time in Winterfell to his advantage and start to learn how to lead or simply be a decent human being.

So Theon is to suffer for Balon's faults?

Being a noble's son has some disadvantages. Life isn't always fair.

Theon did accuse his father of foolishness in terms of taking the crown. Balon had, however, settled on his choice, and to push things further by refusing to cooperate would, you know, have resulted in Theon's imprisonment or execution for treason and betraying his family.

Which, had he been caught, would have resulted in Theon's execution at the hands of his own family. God forbid that someone choose blood loyalty over the House that held them hostage for half their life.

Following his father's plan would lead to certain defeat. Taking a chance to help Robb would've given him a chance to live. It's ironic, the one time he should've been thinking what was the best path for his own long term interest he didn't do so.

There was several ways that Theon could've snuck a message to Robb. Bribe a sailor to carry a message, send a bird, escape once he hit the North and raced to the nearest keep. They would've taken him in and prepared what defenses they could against the Iron Men.

Had Asha been in Theon's place, she'd have torched Winterfell and taken Bran and Rickon as hostages back to Pyke. Would a Theon who did that be any more loved by the readers than the Theon who stupidly stayed and tried to hold Winterfell? Somehow I doubt it.

Nope, you're right I'd still hate him but he took the worse possible path and manage to sink even lower in my opinion. And they'll still lose the war.

[Alexia]

You know, if Theon despised the Starks and took Winterfell as revenge, razed it to the ground, and carried Bran and Rickon back to Pyke as hostages I might actually respect him a little more than I do now. But he was friends with Robb (told Balon that Robb was like his brother), one of his most trusted friends, and he really did betray him on a personal level. He did have a right to hate Starks, considering he'd been there hostage all his life, but he DID NOT hate Starks and he was very close with the current Lord Stark.

Sandor kills Mycah because he is Joffrey's bodyguard and was told that Mycah attacked Joffrey. Jaime threw Bran out a window to protect Cersei and her children. Theon killed two children and put their heads on spikes over a castle gate because...he might be embarrassed.

Sandor lied to protect Sansa and cut her loose from a riot. Jaime jumped into a bear pit to save Brienne. Theon does...what exactly?

[TrueMetis]

You know, if Theon despised the Starks and took Winterfell as revenge, razed it to the ground, and carried Bran and Rickon back to Pyke as hostages I might actually respect him a little more than I do now. But he was friends with Robb (told Balon that Robb was like his brother), one of his most trusted friends, and he really did betray him on a personal level. He did have a right to hate Starks, considering he'd been there hostage all his life, but he DID NOT hate Starks and he was very close with the current Lord Stark.

Sandor kills Mycah because he is Joffrey's bodyguard and was told that Mycah attacked Joffrey. Jaime threw Bran out a window to protect Cersei and her children. Theon killed two children and put their heads on spikes over a castle gate because...he might be embarrassed.

Sandor lied to protect Sansa and cut her loose from a riot. Jaime jumped into a bear pit to save Brienne. Theon does...what exactly?

Well to be fair he did save Brans life.

[Alexia]

Well to be fair he did save Brans life.

Where was the risk to himself in doing that? Jaime and Sandor both risked their own safety for Brienne and Sansa. For no reason other than that they felt it was the right thing to do and they cared about the girls.

Theon risked Bran when he took that shot (yes, I know it was necessary), started his usual bragging up, and then tried to blame Robb for Bran being endangered when Robb snapped at him. It was Theon's fault that the whole situation happened to begin with (he went after that turkey and took all the guards with him) but when someone says something, no, it's anyone's fault but his own.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Well to be fair he did save Brans life.

With no real personal risk. A fine, deftly deed, but not redeeming.

[TrueMetis]

Where was the risk to himself in doing that? Jaime and Sandor both risked their own safety for Brienne and Sansa. For no reason other than that they felt it was the right thing to do and they cared about the girls.

Theon risked Bran when he took that shot (yes, I know it was necessary), started his usual bragging up, and then tried to blame Robb for Bran being endangered when Robb snapped at him. It was Theon's fault that the whole situation happened to begin with (he went after that turkey and took all the guards with him) but when someone says something, no, it's anyone's fault but his own.

Not saying it makes it better (Not even close) just saying he did do something.

[Dreadwolf]

Sandor kills Mycah because he is Joffrey's bodyguard and was told that Mycah attacked Joffrey...

Like I have said several times I actually hate Sandor in that Mycah case. (Although the Hound did other things for which I do respect him).

And not that it really matters but Sandor was not only body-guard to Joffrey. He was him sworn-sword (if I am wrong please correct me). And IMHO it is a bit higher as regrrds to following orders.

[fitheach]

Wow, I'm surprised that so many feel for Theon. It seems like he has no redeeming values, and there'll be no turn around for this character (unlike Jaime, Tyrion, and Sandor seem to have turned around). So what, he was taken in at 10 years- big deal. He wasn't treated badly, he was treated better than Jon Snow, if fact he was probably treated better than what he'd get in the Iron Isles as a native son. That's the aftermath of war and Theon and his father and people knew this... It wasn't unusual for fostering to happen in medieval Europe (obviously not Westeros, but still similar), and his staying with the Starks wasn't very different from this.

I think some readers are seeing more into this character than there really is. He's one of the few obvious bad guys (there are a few of them).

[Errant Bard]

there'll be no turn around for this character

How do you know? Gazed into the flames too long?

He wasn't treated badly, he was treated better than Jon Snow

No he was not. Seriously, where did you get this notion?

[spioraid na habhainn]

theon represents two different types of being- the good ward and the good son. when living with the Starks, he survived by bending the knee. when he went back to his father, he tried to survive by dealing out violence and conquest. in both personalities, theon is a man who wants to please others for his own good. that is a quality that i can certainly identify with. or with which i can identify.

perhaps, if we had seen Theon trying to please his father before trying to behave himself under Ned Stark's watch, it would be a little more difficult to feel bad for him?

s.

[Dreadwolf]

perhaps, if we had seen Theon trying to please his father before trying to behave himself under Ned Stark's watch, it would be a little more difficult to feel bad for him?

I guess you imply/ mean that if Theon had never been Winterfe ward we would percieve him differently. So we would have then one Asha more I guess (with some sexual distinguishing features) and probably with or without Theon characteristic ego... Would be much more boring and presumably there would never have been such hot points exchanged/ debates.

[spioraid na habhainn]

I guess you imply/ mean that if Theon had never been Winterfe ward we would percieve him differently. So we would have then one Asha more I guess (with some sexual distinguishing features) and probably with or without Theon characteristic ego... Would be much more boring and presumably there would never have been such hot points exchanged/ debates.

presuming that if Theon had been around then Asha would still have felt the need to fill a spot as a son, yes.

i was answering the question concerning sympathy with a theory about empathy- not trying to say that it would have better neccessarily if theon would have been raised exclusively on the Iron Islands. I was only saying that the justification of sympathy/empathy would have been much more difficult.

s.

[Roose Bolton]

I really think he's over-paying the price living in a dark cell eating rats that bite you will you sleep in complete darkness, while being tortured. I liked Theon on my first readthrough, I do admit, I did not want him to die, and to hear that he's being tortured to near-death for many months in darkness was an interesting price to pay for his actions against the fanatasy-cliche Starks. I am very interested in seeing how things develop, Martin doesn't dissapoint me for the most part with his writings.

[Mad Monkey]

I'm glad to see that someone called "Roose Bolton" is sympathizing with Theon Greyjoy's sojourn in the Dreadfort.

[Roose Bolton]

Even I don't always find my sons methods most pleasant, but his worth to my house has proven most immesurable.

[Dracunculus]

No he was not. Seriously, where did you get this notion?

Just look at where the two of them were sitting at the Winterfell feast at the beginning of AGoT. Theon may not have been trusted by Catelyn when growing up, but he didn't have to deal with her hatred, as Jon did. Even though Theon was a hostage, he was still afforded more respect and status than the bastard.

Theon is a self-absorbed and self-pitying jerk, as has been pretty well-established previously in this thread. He could have easily reclaimed his birthright when he returned to the Ironborn. If he had really wanted to get back into his father's graces, then all he needed to do was obey. He was even told so, in not so many words, by his uncle Aeron. Theon was given a command to harry the coastline, but allowed his unfounded sense of self worth and his impatient need for glory to overrule his orders. It was his own delusional notions of grandeur that caused him to dig his own hole in Winterfell.

I think the reason that a lot of the less savory characters are better liked is because it is a lot easier for people to relate to their actions, even the ones done rashly. Bronn may do some horrible things, but you can at least understand where he is coming from when doing them, and whether you like them or not, they do bring him some measure of success. Theon, on the other hand, is a fool. I can't think of any deliberate choice that Theon makes in any of the books where I would have chosen similarly. Almost all of them speak of his arrogance and stupidity. I can't really think of anything redeeming to his character, and nothing written in the books or in this forum so far has caused me to feel much sympathy for him.

[Rinso]

The place at the table during the feast in Winterfell means nothing. Theon was there because he was highborn. Jon wasn't because he was a bastard.

As for Catelyn's hatred for Jon, let's not open that can of worms, eh? Catelyn didn't hate Jon. She was just cold and distant. And don't bother to bring up the "It should have been you" line.

[Mad Monkey]

Maybe "hate" is a strong word. Let's say "resent". As in, Lady Catelyn resents that Ned cheated on her with another woman after they were betrothed, and brought home the bastard to show as a constant reminder of her humiliation. Eddard might have a great reason for doing it, but it's still incredibly bizarre and disrespectful from her perspective, which is why she displays emotions that -- to a little kid -- might be confused with hatred.