Anyone else feel sorry for Lysa Arryn?

[Alexia]

Again you're looking at it solely from Lysa's eyes-not that of her family. They thought she would feel bad/be ashamed of being married to some 2nd son of a bannermans family in an obvious "poor you" gesture (she wouldn't have gotten an heir or a lord as a non-virgin). And considering how most of the river folk faired in this book she would have suffered even more.

Second I don't think Lysa would have been happy with anyone except LF, who never was interested in her except what she could give him.

I am looking at from Lysa's point of view; no argument there. But, no way did her dad think that she would prefer Jon Arryn. He told her (snottily) that she should be grateful such a high lord would take her soiled. He told her she could either marry Jon or he would throw her out. That marriage had absolutely nothing to do with what was good for Lysa and everything to do with Lord Hoster's lust for power.

You may be right that Lysa wouldn't have been happy with anyone but LF but I'm not sure. It's pretty common for teens to get their crushes and obsessions, which burn out after a while. If she had married someone where she didn't cringe with disgust every time he touched her, it's very possible that she would have gotten over LF and lived a, if not happy, decent life. As it is, I'm not surprised that she carried on an affair through her entire marriage and I think that being given into that marriage pretty much solidified the obsession and broke her mentally.

[The Hand]

See my responses above. For the last, I don't think she was evil. Selfish and without honor, I'll concede. Also, Lysa Arryn wasn't happy a day in her life. She was nothing but a tool that got used and abused by everyone around her from her father, to her husband, to the lords of the Vale, to Littlefinger. Even Cersei had some happiness in her life, Lysa had nothing.

Yes, granted she had an unhappy life and couldn't be with one she loved... that's sad and pathetic in a way but it doesn't excuse her behavior in the books. She might been in a loveless marriage but she still was the Lady of the Vale, Wife to Warden of the East (or was it West?) and Hand of the King, and had a son. Considering she was "soiled" by LF, she could have had a much worse life if she was forced to marry a commoner or a crippled noble of a tiny house or something. Jon Arryn might have been old and gross to her but it seems like he was a decent man that was kind to her. It's not like LF really wanted to be with her anyway... its not like he wanted to marry her and her father sent him away. He fought Brandon for Catelyn not Lysa. She knew deep down that he loved Cat not her, but didn't care and was happy to be in denial about it. Even to the point where she let Westeros and her family go to hell so she could continue believing in her delusional dreams about LF loving her.

Regardless of how cruel life had been for her, the way she acted required a cold, heartless and selfish person to sit back and watch innocent people, including friends and family, die so you can be with your "true love." Can't feel sorry for a person like that.

Sorry but her dying by LF's hand was poetic justice.

[Krafus]

So yes, I do pity Lysa (especially her death scene...yikes), although, as many people have mentioned, some characters do have it worse. But interesting, it seems that only among male characters we have complete monsters, like Gregor or Ramsey. All females have some sort of excuses. Yet still, it's them who get bashed worst by the fandom (the amount of Lysa/Catelyn hate I've seen is certainly overwhelming).

Could it be precisely because those female characters have some sort of redeeming features/backstories that they get bashed? The practically unambiguous evil of people like Gregor, Ramsay or Joffrey is self-evident and agreed upon by nearly everyone, and so need not be debated. But with Lysa and Catelyn, their positive attributes mean that those who dislike them feel compelled to explain/justify their position.

Mind you, some do IMO take it too far. ;)

[Ser Howsmelly]

But with Lysa and Catelyn, their positive attributes mean that those who dislike them feel compelled to explain/justify their position.

Lysa? Positive attributes? Name three off the top of your head.

[Alexia]

Sorry but her dying by LF's hand was poetic justice.

No it wasn't, it was domestic violence and spousal abuse. And it was really sad, everything about that scene was sad.

[Krafus]

Lysa? Positive attributes? Name three off the top of your head.

I admit, that wasn't a good choice of words. What I meant was for "positive attributes" to also mean "extenuating circumstances." And on the latter, I can indeed name three off the top of my head:

- Unhappy childhood

- Unhappy marriage

- A series of stillbirths and miscarriages leading to a single, sickly child

Mind you, this doesn't mean that I feel any more positive about Lysa, but she wasn't an unambiguous monster like Gregor, Ramsay or Joffrey.

[Dreadwolf]

May be it is also worth considering about that:

Brynden was claimed to be the black goat of the family for his denial to marry in accordance with the Patriarch will.

In result he proclaimed hs self as a Blackfish, lived in exile of a kind. But at least he received that he wanted. (Or was not forced to do wat he never liked).

Lysa has never got even a slightest chance of a similar development.

She was forced to obey, to discrad the calls of her heart and to serve better to her (original) family.

The tragic outcome is well known she discard her (original) family motto (Family, Duty, Honor) in a way - sacrificing her own life to the man she beloved (in fact betraying her syster and land).

... love is the bane of honor, the death of duty... sounds like familiar and rude and escpecially harsh in a men ruled society.

[Alexia]

May be it is also worth considering about that:

Brynden was claimed to be the black goat of the family for his denial to marry in accordance with the Patriarch will.

In result he proclaimed hs self as a Blackfish, lived in exile of a kind. But at least he received that he wanted. (Or was not forced to do wat he never liked).

Lysa has never got even a slightest chance of a similar development.

I love this point and now that I think of it, I wonder if that's what Martin was trying to convey through the Blackfish's story as compared with Lysa.

[Ser Howsmelly]

I admit, that wasn't a good choice of words. What I meant was for "positive attributes" to also mean "extenuating circumstances." And on the latter, I can indeed name three off the top of my head:

- Unhappy childhood

- Unhappy marriage

- A series of stillbirths and miscarriages leading to a single, sickly child

Mind you, this doesn't mean that I feel any more positive about Lysa, but she wasn't an unambiguous monster like Gregor, Ramsay or Joffrey.

The crux of your last post I quoted was built around your claim that Cat and Lysa possess "positive attributes" or redeeming qualities. The three extenuating circumstances that you have listed are all definitely negative rather then positive so the two are definitely not interchangeable terms.

Although Joff definitely does not handle power or status well I think it is interesting to note his reaction to Robert's drunken tirade when Cersei says he cannot participate in the tourney melee. As well as his statements to Lord Tywin regarding Robert's prowess in battle as compared with his Grandfather's. I think this evidences a child with a lot of conflicting ideals and emotions.

I think the comparison between Lysa and the Blackfish was put in to show that Lysa's unhappy-ness at her station in life - or unwillingness to conform to the lot dealt her - is not a unique situation, especially in a family as honour bound as the Tullys.

[Krafus]

The crux of your last post I quoted was built around your claim that Cat and Lysa possess "positive attributes" or redeeming qualities. The three extenuating circumstances that you have listed are all definitely negative rather then positive so the two are definitely not interchangeable terms.

I meant positive in the sense of getting people to sympathize/empathize with Lysa, not that they are positive in and of themselves. As I said before, I chose my words poorly - I should have stated "positive attributes/extenuating circumstances" in my original post instead of assuming the former implied the latter. Mea culpa, English isn't my first language and I make mistakes from time to time.

[Silverstar]

The crux of your last post I quoted was built around your claim that Cat and Lysa possess "positive attributes" or redeeming qualities. The three extenuating circumstances that you have listed are all definitely negative rather then positive so the two are definitely not interchangeable terms.

It's difficult to see Lysa's positive qualities now, certainly, though it seems that she definitely used to have them, before the abortion and heartbreak. Catelyn has plenty, however.

[Alexia]

I think the comparison between Lysa and the Blackfish was put in to show that Lysa's unhappy-ness at her station in life - or unwillingness to conform to the lot dealt her - is not a unique situation, especially in a family as honour bound as the Tullys.

I would interpret it rather as showing the gender restrictions in Westeros - a man could successfully resist an unwanted marriage and live a happy life of his own choosing whereas a woman cannot. The Blackfish has many options open to him after Lord Hoster kicks him out and he chose to take service with the Arryns. Lysa's only other option was to become a septa.

[Lord Baelish]

I sympathise with Lysa after everything she's been through, but she was so annoying I still cheered when Littlefinger lobbed her off the cliff.

[Glow]

Being HighBorn implies being responsible: in a girls' case that means not fucking with people before you get married (or at least manage not to get pregnant). Lysa, who brought dishonor to her family and was lucky enough to get a suitable husband anyway (which proves her father was a good negotiator), had the chance to live a comfortable life, with no worries and knowing her son would be a High Lord, behaved like a bitch. I'm just sorry she died that fast.

I don't think the abortions had something to do with the moontea she took: I'm sure Cersei took more than one moontea during her marriage and she got three healthy babies with not that much of a problem, maybe the thing was about the Arryn dying out and her husband being old enough. I wouldn't swear on how old he was when they got married, I should check back. Anyway she made awful decisions and as a mother I guess she is even worse than Cersei: Joff might be a little sociopath but he gets to mingle with people and he looks like an able person while sweetrobin ... well, I think he is screwed up for good.

I totally dislike her and feel no sympathy, I don't think having a screwed up life works as a bonus to screw up everybody's life as soon as she could. Then trying to kill your niece because the man you feel the heat for is hot on her -while she really has no interest whatsoever- is just something I just can't believe some would consider a minor thing.

LF would have never married, unless that could guarantee him being close to Cat, and with Cat anyway getting to Winterfell that was not going to happen LF used her all the way, and I think he was as disgusted at her as I am :D

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I don't think the abortions had something to do with the moontea she took: I'm sure Cersei took more than one moontea during her marriage and she got three healthy babies with not that much of a problem, maybe the thing was about the Arryn dying out and her husband being old enough. I wouldn't swear on how old he was when they got married, I should check back. Anyway she made awful decisions and as a mother I guess she is even worse than Cersei: Joff might be a little sociopath but he gets to mingle with people and he looks like an able person while sweetrobin ... well, I think he is screwed up for good.

You're getting Moon tea and Tansy tea mixed up. Moon Tea prevents pregnancy whereas Tansy tea is an abortant - it induces contractions to abort a fetus that's already done a lot of developing. Chemical abortants like this (unlike birth control) can cause difficulty with conception in the real world, so it's not too surprising the same is true in Westrosi medicine. I think it's clear that Tansy Tea was part of why Lysa can't become pregnant again, though Jon Arryn's age could also be a factor.

As for the whole "you're a highborn lady you shouldn't have sex" thing, give me a break. There are dozens of folks in the books, including other highborn ladies, that have sex before marriage and get much less scorn from readers. It's unfortunate that she happened to fall in love with a machiavellian manipulator - if it has been anyone but Littlefinger she loved, Lysa's actions wouldn't have made a ripple (I doubt very much she'd have killed Jon Arryn on her own).

That said, Lysa is incredibly unlikable. Almost laughably so.

[Merihathor]

I don't pity her entirely. I personally think she was mentally ill, and so feel badly for her that she was ill and therefore made a number of poor decisions as a result.

If she wasn't mentally ill, then I'd probably want to judge her a bit more harshly (although I would shy away from that--who am I to judge someone else?). I personally believe that regardless of how life is to you, you choose the attitude/response you have. I understand the desire to succumb to vengeance and other petty emotions, but I think other options are open to you, no matter how terrible and unjust the cards dealt to you.

Just personal opinion, of course.

[Glow]

You got me there MyDogIsNamedDanerys, I should after all get to read the books again :) anyway I don't think having more babies would have improved her attitude.

I never said "don't have sex" I said "don't get pregnant" there's a difference at that, probably I would have get along real bad with someone like her, many of her choices get on my nerves (even more than Cerseis', and that's a lot to say). On the other hand I can barely stand Catelyn, which is weird enough now that I think about it. Two sisters and no of them suiting my taste :D

Without Petyr at hand she would have found some other way to piss off her life, maybe I have some prejudices be cause she looks so much like someone I know well, someone who's death would really improve by far the wellbeing of people related to her (this one though, doesn't want babies and that is a great thing).

I'd go slowly with the mentally ill thing, she is maybe borderline but she knows the difference between good and evil so at court she would be totally guilty of murdering her husband (with poison, which is not oh well I got pissed off and flung him out).

If having a harsh life was a reason to poison your husband, teach your kid that flying people from a precipice is a nice thing to do, attempt the murder of your niece (always the flying game) because you're feeling she threatens your love affaire and other amenities then, well, judges will have to let tons of people out free, cause I know many people who had it a lot worse than her and did long years (for murder under special circumstances, as Monzon, an argentinian box champion). Jails are full of people who had harsh life times.

If for Westeros costumes and ethics and LF manipulating her I just think she was a bad person from the start, and right now I just can't find the words :) maybe I should browse some material which is not about work :D

[DizoakiusMaximus]

Short answer: "No"

Long answer: "Hell no."

[Miang]

Any sympathy I might have had for Lysa Arryn over the circumstances of her life evaporated when I saw the way she deals with her son. She's crippled the boy - Sweetrobin is six years old in AGOT and not weaned. She ruined any opportunity he has to be able to deal with the real world, let alone take over his responsibilities as Lord of the Vale should he survive to the age of majority. She's let him get a taste for throwing people out the Moon Door for fun, rather than as a penalty for severe crimes. Now, I'm not trying to compare her to other characters, mind you. I'm considering Lysa on her own merits - which are few.

Furthermore, while she's not the only person who should be held responsible for the War of the Five Kinds - there are many factors - Lysa's actions were like throwing a torch on the kindling. Would the war have come anyways? Possibly, but if she hadn't murdered Jon Arryn and gotten her sister's family wrapped up in the idea that the Lannisters were responsible, Ned would never have gone South to become the King's Hand. If war had come, the balance of power would have been very different.

I could have sympathized with her, even touching off the war the way she did, but there is no excuse for the way she has abused her son.

[Lady Blackfish]

I think the difficulty of conception/pregnancy definitely took its toll. Providing an heir is reason numero uno for these marriages, and I can't imagine life with old Jon was at its most comfortable during those nine long years when all she produced was miscarriages. Those can be pretty traumatic events, and lack of a sympathetic shoulder could exacerbate the stress.

I don't think we necessarily can conclude that Hoster Tully married Lysa off to Jon Arryn solely because of a lust for power. The narrative pushes us to conclude that Hoster saw an opportunity in Arryn because he was so old and heirless, and Lysa was proven fertile. Ironically the way Hoster handled the situation all but nullified Lysa's advantage.

I feel very sorry for Lysa. She is not an admirable person, but her life was too hard for her, and I've sympathized with worse people in the series in some way or other.