Anyone else feel sorry for Lysa Arryn?

[baxus]

first off, i find lysa arryn one of the most irritating characters in the series and she is one of the few whose death i eagerly awaited.

while the reasons for her actions can be understood, she took it way too far, caused so much misery and death there is absolutely no excuse (at least in my eyes)

i don't think being forced to marry jon arryn was a bad thing for her. she didn't love him, so what? did ned love catelyn (or the other way around) when they got married? were daenerys and drogo in love, or cersei and robert? did robb and edmure want to marry frey wives? sansa and tyrion were no lovebirds either, now that i think of it, nor would have sansa and that tyrrell guy (can't remember the name) have been. i was trying to make a point about arranged marriages being the norm among nobles, not about how good those marriages turn out to be.

[edit]but it does seem those who make an effort to get their marriage to work manage just fine, while those who cling on to their previous lovers and/or some injustice done to them by their spouse don't.[/edit]

lysa must have known her father would determine who she will get to marry and that she will have no say in it. it's not as if it were such a big secret which was suddenly revealed when she fell in love.

By all accounts, she spent almost the entirety of her life deeply unhappy and lacking in human affection. She married a man who was emotionally distant, who took her to a secluded place where there were few people she could befriend.

he took her to king's landing as well, which is far from secluded.

what's her reason for not fitting in there? yes, many people in court are backstabbers, but sure there were some she could have befriended. anyway, it's not like she was raised by wolves and had no idea of how courts worked and all the intrigues behind the scenes.

I have been laboring under the idea Hoster Tully was not the best of fathers. We don't have much information. Since there was some squabble with the Blackfish that caused him to live in the Vale all those years, it seems Edmure must have been the hier. Why wasn't Edmure safely married off when Hoster discovered he was ill?

hoster and blackfish argued over blackfish's repeated refusals to get married.

and edmure would be the heir regardless of whether those two argued or not.

How far along was Lysa when she was married off? And how would Hoster Tully have known that Lysa had sex with LF and that she was pregnant? Unless Lysa told him in hopes that Hoster would then let them marry? So she had to be several months along.

if i'm not mistaken, lysa had an abortion before she was married to jon arryn.

[iamthedave]

By all accounts, she spent almost the entirety of her life deeply unhappy and lacking in human affection. She married a man who was emotionally distant, who took her to a secluded place where there were few people she could befriend. It seems the only outlet for affection she found was her son, after repeated miscarriages of children she must have wanted desperately. I wish I could remember the scene where Cat muses over the fact that Lysa's being sent to the Eyrie must have been horribly lonely (and could not have come at a worse time). I find her to be a deeply tragic character.

So please don't counter with "But she killed her husband!" "She would have killed her niece!" "She breastfed for too long, OMG!" No one is trying to justify Lysa's actions; we all know she's selfish, mentally unstable, childish. She's a nasty piece of work. The question is whether we should pity her.

Lol. I'm afraid that's the only response.

You rule out Lysa's disgusting, objectionable, morally repugnant actions as a valid argument for why not to pity her?

But okay, I'll come up with something new. How about her ALLOWING Robert to respond to the idea of people going out the Moon door with 'I want to see him fly, mother'? How about allowing that horrible fate to become something entertaining, something funny, instead of a somber deliverance of judgement (which is what it's meant to be)? It's completely monstrous on every conceivable level, and is a damning indication of the woman Lysa Arryn is.

Do you see any evidence at all that Lysa attempted to put anything approaching a moral heart into her son, that she tried even vaguely to act like an actual parent?

Lysa is pathetic. You MAY pity her if you will, that's your right. But the amount of pain, misery and suffering Lysa actively creates pushes her out of that category as far as I'm concerned.

[Horza]

Whenever she crops up in the books I start hearing Zappa or Hendrix coz she got playyyed.

[amore]

Lol. I'm afraid that's the only response.

You rule out Lysa's disgusting, objectionable, morally repugnant actions as a valid argument for why not to pity her?

But okay, I'll come up with something new. How about her ALLOWING Robert to respond to the idea of people going out the Moon door with 'I want to see him fly, mother'? How about allowing that horrible fate to become something entertaining, something funny, instead of a somber deliverance of judgement (which is what it's meant to be)? It's completely monstrous on every conceivable level, and is a damning indication of the woman Lysa Arryn is.

Do you see any evidence at all that Lysa attempted to put anything approaching a moral heart into her son, that she tried even vaguely to act like an actual parent?

Lysa is pathetic. You MAY pity her if you will, that's your right. But the amount of pain, misery and suffering Lysa actively creates pushes her out of that category as far as I'm concerned.

I'm totally with iamthedave on this.

Arranged marriage and high rate of infant mortality would have been the norm in the medieval society portrayed. A high born woman would expect to live wherever her husband's station took him and not with the family she grew up with. None of this would have been a surprise to her. Also neither the Eyrie or Kings Landing were deserted hovels, they were populated regional or national capitals.

As for her relationship with Jon Arryn. There is no proof that he did not try hard to make her happy. Maybe he become cold and aloof from her when he realised what a cold hearted psycho she was.

Her treatment of her son was child abuse and he will be very lucky to grow up into a normal person. He has my full sympathy because if he ends up showing the moral weakness of his mother it will be completely understandable and not at all his fault. His mother has warped him.

Lysa was a terrible person and any sympathy or pity sent her way would be wasted. I'd rather give mine to somebody who deserves it.

[Nukelavee]

Here's the thing - Jon wasn't what we'd consider old...he was in his 50's when he died.

[Glow]

I took a time to think it over again, wondering why she disgusted me so much. Maybe it was something personal, because I strongly disliked her and really can't get to relate with her actions.

I went through her story line, updating the tansy part (I got moon tea and tansy mixed up, shame on me) and there where things I couldn't get over with.

First the way she goes to LF. Letting him thing she was Cat was a nasty thing to do, and then a highborn girl KNOWS which is her life path (Cat grew up in the same place and she had ideas about what things may come) so that I read as something "planned". Maybe she thought she could have gotten away with marrying out someone her father wouldn't approve and that's already delusional from my point of view.

Then the thing that stroke me real bad (originally it was only dislike) was the way she handled her son. Forget about killing her husband, let's get to crippling your own son and teach him to play "fly the man out " games for amusing purposes. Someone who does something like that to a baby/toddler/boy is someone who'll never get my pity, whatever the background I just don't care. Killing your husband, starting a war (even if for futile reason) could have been politics, but abusing your own child? I can't get pass that thing.

I don't pity child abusers, in whatever form they might come, and the abuse Lysa perpetrated is ... there are no words. You might have ideas about why she behaves this way, but understanding why she does and justifying what she does are totally different things (anyway I just can't get to understand motivations without considering mental conditions).

[Hand of the Queen]

Yes. She did awful things, but like so many characters, she still didn't deserve everything that happened to her.

I think she is doubly despised because she is immoral, but not admired for her skill in doing bad things. But that doesn't make her worse than the talented, cunning people who do bad things, with greater malice aforethought. Lysa is less interesting, less wanted to stay around for future chapters... but not more deserving of suffering.

[Glow]

Yes. She did awful things, but like so many characters, she still didn't deserve everything that happened to her.

I think she is doubly despised because she is immoral, but not admired for her skill in doing bad things. But that doesn't make her worse than the talented, cunning people who do bad things, with greater malice aforethought. Lysa is less interesting, less wanted to stay around for future chapters... but not more deserving of suffering.

Is not about doing horrible things, as I said murdering your husband or starting a civil war could be political moves which made perfect sense in other contexts, the things which in my eyes make her disgusting are the way she deals with her son (actually crippling him from a physical, emotional and psychological point of view) and the flying game (one because she DOES it and instructs her son to ENJOY it. The only character I've remember as a kill for fun guy is Gregor and I don't like him a bit. I have no problem with people doing terrible thing for their own reasons and causes, I despise her because of the total lack of direction she has, unless you consider direction her sex driven compass pointing towards LF (who is not a saint either).

Pointing in the wrong direction even then, so little her attachment to reality is.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Is not about doing horrible things, as I said murdering your husband or starting a civil war could be political moves which made perfect sense in other contexts

wadatbahfogalsdogf????

So... you're saying committing murder and causing a war are totally sensible but only IF THEY ARE POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT?

Wtf???

I think she is doubly despised because she is immoral, but not admired for her skill in doing bad things. But that doesn't make her worse than the talented, cunning people who do bad things, with greater malice aforethought. Lysa is less interesting, less wanted to stay around for future chapters... but not more deserving of suffering.

I agree completely. Also it shows a lot that many readers despise Lysa but love Littlefinger, who is ultimately responsible for the worst of Lysa's actions.

[Reaper]

Littlefinger does not breast feed 5 year olds.

[Ealasaid]

Whenever she crops up in the books I start hearing Zappa or Hendrix coz she got playyyed.

Well said.

In light of all the Lysa Tully Arryn hate, a raven to GRRM may be in order. It seems he must stop writing these multi-faceted, life-like characters. It appears that characters must be all good or all bad. His great writing is leading to discord on the boards.

So, by the Seven, GRRM, write cardboard characters.

On a nice day in the seven hells.

[Glow]

wadatbahfogalsdogf????

So... you're saying committing murder and causing a war are totally sensible but only IF THEY ARE POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT?

Wtf???

Maybe I'm not able to express how I see her.

In the books many characters are devious, or what we'd call devious, they act that way to get a goal: murder is secondary to an "achievement", that would stand for being not moral, illegal, verging on treason, criminal and the like. Or sometimes it comes out of passion (as Ira not Lust) as when Loras loses it out of Renlys' death.

Lysa kills for show/amusement, teaching that to her son -that got me on a totally wrong spot, I admit. And attempting to murder Sansa, that wasn't good either.

Is not a moral double standard towards murder, which remains murder, is the mix of motivations and instability (plus the actual parenting which really pissed me off in a magnificent way), the futility in terms of result and the mindless lightness of her delusions chills me out.

As I said before in many ways this character is a full compendium of people I really got not to like, so maybe I'm missing some good side of her.

Can anyone point out one thing she did which shows more than one selfish singleminded gal with not much depth or layers? Cause maybe I'm blinded by prejudice and that prevents me from seeing her good sides.

Is weird, I don't like Cat which looks like the opposite of her sister, like if the family words taking human form. Maybe I just don't like absolutes, but probably this disliking a character in a book has more deep roots.

[mcbigski]

I have been laboring under the idea Hoster Tully was not the best of fathers. We don't have much information. Since there was some squabble with the Blackfish that caused him to live in the Vale all those years, it seems Edmure must have been the hier. Why wasn't Edmure safely married off when Hoster discovered he was ill?

Most of what we know about Hoster as a father comes from Cat's PoV and that was almost uniformly positive. Granted that Cat was his heir for a while and Lysa was always just a second daughter, but most of Lysa's unhappiness was her own fault.

First, she killed Jon Arryn because LF promised they could be together once he was dead, and because she didn't want her son (one of only two people she cared about at all) sent to Dragonstone (where, to be honest, he wouldn't have been much better off considering how Stannis treats his daughter and what a sad place that is...!).

How does Stannis mistreat Shireen? He's not the most engaged father in Westeros, I suppose, but he certainly hasn't been less than dutiful.

[Sivin]

Lysa Arryn was fucking nuts, and that kid needed to get away from her. I mean, he was breastfeeding at like age 6! That's horrible... It's a sign that the woman is psychologically unable to allow the child to be independent from her, and as a result, the child becomes psychologically dependent on her to the point that he can't handle the separation...

[Rakka]

Shoo! Don't you know yet that any criticism at all about breastfeeding a six year old means you think breastfeeding and older women are "groooosss" and not, say, because you see it as a symptom of separation anxiety and desire to keep a child forever dependant on the mother. After all we can all see what a well balanced, strong and moral individual Sweetrobin is growing into.

[Jeejee]

I don't think there's been any study done that says that breastfeeding for years (and years and YEARS in this case) causes psychological damage - The American Academy of Pediatrics says that"there is no upper limit to the duration of breastfeeding and no evidence of psychological or developmental harm from breastfeeding into the third year of life or longer."

So I don't buy that this is sexually abusive toward Robert. I'll agree that it is unusual, and a sign of an unhealthy co-dependence.

Lysa is pathetic. You MAY pity her if you will, that's your right. But the amount of pain, misery and suffering Lysa actively creates pushes her out of that category as far as I'm concerned.

That's fine! I'm only arguing against the idea that we shouldn't pity her because she's a horrible person. I don't think terrible actions make a person any less a candidate for empathy - look at the Hound or Jaime. Truth be told, I also pity Viserys, while still thinking he completely deserved what he got.

[Kaitscralt]

Not only do I not feel sorry for her -- I was actively seeking her death as I read any chapters concerning her.

[Hand of the Queen]

Not only do I not feel sorry for her -- I was actively seeking her death as I read any chapters concerning her.

She may well have deserved death (insert Gandalf quote here) or needed to die for the sake of her son, of Sansa, of the realm in general. She still didn't deserve everything that happened to her, starting long before she was guilty of much of anything.

[Kaitscralt]

That's true. But I can't control what happened to her in her past. All I know is the person she became as a result of it, the choices she made, and that after all the good characters I had to endure dying, it was a small victory for someone like Lysa to bite the dust.

[Miang]

I don't think there's been any study done that says that breastfeeding for years (and years and YEARS in this case) causes psychological damage - The American Academy of Pediatrics says that"there is no upper limit to the duration of breastfeeding and no evidence of psychological or developmental harm from breastfeeding into the third year of life or longer."

So I don't buy that this is sexually abusive toward Robert. I'll agree that it is unusual, and a sign of an unhealthy co-dependence.

In order to definitively, scientifically determine there is psychological harm to breastfeeding a child past three years old it would have to be studied. Do you see a lot of people lining up to participate in that study? They've studied the effects of breastfeeding up to the three year mark to determine benefits as well as negative side effects, but somehow I'm doubtful anyone has studied it up to the six year mark. Now, in the middle ages women (high-born women in particular since low-born women simply did not have this luxury) were encouraged to breast feed a full two years to combat diseases; the bloody flux and the rickets among others. I think if Lysa had breastfed for two years or even three you wouldn't be seeing that as an argument against here. But Robbert Arryn was six years old and not weaned.

At some point you don't need a scientific study to determine something perfectly obvious. Some things are just apparent. The perversity of Lysa Arryn's relationship with her son is one of those things. I don't need a scientific study to tell me that if I stick my hand in a fire it's going to be burnt. I can tell from the heat.

Lysa Arryn's relationship with Robbert was abusive. It may not have been a sexually abusive relationship - although I think given the connotations had she survived it was likely to develop in that direction, but it was abusive. Any kind of a abuse of a child is a monstrous act. At that point, while sexual abuse would be worse, does it really matter that it hadn't gone that far or is it enough that she was abusive to her son in the first place?