Anyone else feel sorry for Lysa Arryn?

[Josquius]

With Lysa: where was it said she poisoned Jon? I can't recall this being mentioned.

Samwell: Roughly the equivielnt of being born a geek in a family of sports legends. His fathers rutheless attempts to "toughen him up" only serve to make him a quivering jelly of fear. He is also denied the obvious real alternative that he would be best suited for (Maestership) by his father to save family honor.

I can't recall that bit. Is being a maester considered dishonorable? Why was he sent to the knights watch instead of to the citadel? Dad just wanted him a thousand miles away?

[Fireball07]

With Lysa: where was it said she poisoned Jon? I can't recall this being mentioned.

I can't recall that bit. Is being a maester considered dishonorable? Why was he sent to the knights watch instead of to the citadel? Dad just wanted him a thousand miles away?

It's in AFFC in one of Sansa's chapters. Kind of a big plot point really, not the kinda thing you want to miss. :P It shows the extent of Littlefinger's scheming imo.

As for Sam being a maester, I dunno if it ever arose as an option before. It's not dishonourable but maybe to Randyll Tarly it is. It's more visible to the common people, and people would see his heir was a bookish maester rather than a ruthless fighter like him. At least if he's in the NW, he can say my son is a man and fighting against wildlings and things like that. I'm not too certain though.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

It's in AFFC in one of Sansa's chapters. Kind of a big plot point really, not the kinda thing you want to miss. :P It shows the extent of Littlefinger's scheming imo.

Nope, it's in the last Sansa chapter in ASoS, right before Littlefinger pushes her out the moon door.

Lysa's dead in aFfC.

[Nukelavee]

Sam tells us it's because maesters "serve".

[Ealasaid]

Yes, I do feel for Lysa Arryn.

She was probably eaten up with jealousy during the kissing games she, Catelyn and LF played.

LF challenged Brandon for Catelyn's hand, but not Jon Arryn for hers.

Lf whispered Cat's name when Lysa gave it up.

Catelyn was a breeder. Lysa had one sickly child that lived.

LF was there for her to see in KL all those years.

I don't know the name for the mental hurt and physical hurt she went though.

She certainly felt entitled. What help could anyone have given her? She suffered all alone, and picked those scabs everyday. I think it was probably impossible for her to think in any rational way after a while. But it doesn't make me like her character.

[Ser Kevan Raley]

I cheered when Littlefinger shoved her out!

Just because she got her sandbox paved, figuratively speaking, when she was younger does in no way excuse her later behaviour. It can explain it, but that's different. A lot of other people had a screwy upbringing and they learned right from wrong.

The sad thing is that I don't really care for Sweetrobin either. And who will inherit the Vale?

[Fireball07]

Nope, it's in the last Sansa chapter in ASoS, right before Littlefinger pushes her out the moon door.

Lysa's dead in aFfC.

Of course...

[Elrick]

While the last two years of Catelyn's life were a horror and the way she died was worse than the way Lysa died, I think that overall Lysa had it much worse. Catelyn was married to a man close to her in age. She didn't know him but they were able to develop love and a close bond. And she had five children that she loved.

I really have to disagree with this one. Catelyn HAD a good husband and 5 children but was forced to endure losing everything she loved one by one. This is a far worse fate than if you never had it before at least in my opinion.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I really have to disagree with this one. Catelyn HAD a good husband and 5 children but was forced to endure losing everything she loved one by one. This is a far worse fate than if you never had it before at least in my opinion.

Catelyn had at least 15 years of almost 100% happiness with Ned, and before that, she had a very happy childhood where she was respected, loved, and was the favorite child of her uncle and father. Then she lost her family.

Lysa had a relatively unhappy childhood, never receiving the respect Cat received, followed by a horrifying experience as a teenager, culiminating in 15 years of a loveless, lifeless marriage including multiple pregnancies that led to miscarriage. Then, she was murdered by the man she loved.

There's no comparison here.

Catelyn had 30 unusually happy years followed by one horrible year where she lost it all.

Lysa suffered 30 unusually unhappy years, and when she finally had what she wanted for two weeks, she was murdered.

[iamthedave]

Catelyn had at least 15 years of almost 100% happiness with Ned, and before that, she had a very happy childhood where she was respected, loved, and was the favorite child of her uncle and father. Then she lost her family.

Lysa had a relatively unhappy childhood, never receiving the respect Cat received, followed by a horrifying experience as a teenager, culiminating in 15 years of a loveless, lifeless marriage including multiple pregnancies that led to miscarriage. Then, she was murdered by the man she loved.

There's no comparison here.

Catelyn had 30 unusually happy years followed by one horrible year where she lost it all.

Lysa suffered 30 unusually unhappy years, and when she finally had what she wanted for two weeks, she was murdered.

Lysa gets none of my sympathy. And her years were not 'unusually' unhappy, barring the multiple miscarriages. Most women in this setting marry early. Sansa Stark has already gone through worse as a youngster than Lysa did, and she's already showing signs of becoming a better person.

Lysa does not get a free pass because she had a bad time. She's a weak, pathetic person who came to a weak, pathetic end. Her obsession with Robert destroyed what little chance of a decent or long life Robert could have had, and her weakness contributed to the war of the five kings.

Many characters in this setting deserve sympathy. Lysa bloody Arryn isn't one of them.

I give her the base empathy I'd give any human being in pain. But that coin doesn't go far when you tot up the things she's done and the way she's been twisted. In the end, the way events twist a person is a judge of the person, not the events, because you can always find someone who suffered more and turned out better.

[nevermore]

i feel sorry for Randyll Tarlly :crying: , all he wanted was a warmonger son who would bring death to many people but he got a wimpy fat boy who wanted to read books :ack:

Lysa too, all she wanted was some LF dick through her hole, but what she got was the Little finger pushing her into 'a hole'. :crying:

all jokes aside, she got my pity, i didn't feel sorry for her, if you can see the difference there.

[mcbigski]

I don't think we necessarily can conclude that Hoster Tully married Lysa off to Jon Arryn solely because of a lust for power. The narrative pushes us to conclude that Hoster saw an opportunity in Arryn because he was so old and heirless, and Lysa was proven fertile. Ironically the way Hoster handled the situation all but nullified Lysa's advantage.

I feel very sorry for Lysa. She is not an admirable person, but her life was too hard for her, and I've sympathized with worse people in the series in some way or other.

Hoster married Lysa off because that's what he decided was best for his house politically. Lysa's entire job description as a younger daughter is to allow for a favorable alliance for her house. Really Lysa is entirely to blame for being 'damaged' goods by Westerosi standards. She could have kept her legs shut before she was bethrothed like she was supposed to and would likely have been much happier in the end. Her name was Lysa Tully, not Lysa Rivers, she should have acted according to Family, Duty, Honor in the first place.

And she still spent almost 15 years living in almost unimaginable luxury as the wife of the King's Hand, arguably the greatest non royal Lord in the realm. Boo fucking hoo.

[Nukelavee]

The issue with Lyssa is.....outside of the castles and knights and winter and...

I KNOW people like that, a lot of them. We all do. I know plenty of women who had bastards, or an abortion, and didn't go her route. I know lots of women with miscarriages, and loveless relationships, and they didn't kill people off.

Plus, I know a lot of people with that professional victim stance, and I generally intensely dislike all of them.

[Gurkhal]

Myself I really tried to feel sorry for Lysa and her son, but it always came back to loathing and hate when I read about it. So no, I don't feel very sorry even if I figure that I probably should.

[shadow catlady]

I find Lysa one of the most utterly unlikeable characters in this novel, but I love how her characterization is executed. I do feel sorry for her, but just barely, and for the very reasons Alexia's listed in the topic. There is something extremely uncomfortable about the idea that being a horny little teenager has such drastically different consequences for a noble woman than a noble man, and I like to think GRRM did that on purpose.

A lot of characters face hardship, and before I lurked on this forum I assumed some were more designed to be likeable than others. I still think that in some cases but am always surprised by people who say, find Theon more sympathetic than Arya (post-Daeron murder.)

While few of these characters are blameless, I think some seem more sympathetic due to strength of character and how they handle the hardships dealt to them. I'd put Bran (after the initial whiny phase), Daenerys, Davos, Sansa, Jon (also minus the whiny phase), Margaery, Sandor, Brienne, Arya, and Barristan Selmy in that category, though I'm aware that not everyone would. I think it's harder to argue that some characters seem to respond with weak character and/ or selfishness like Theon, Dontos, Viserys, Edmure, and Cersei. Lysa Arryn definitely fits in that category. To me, these characters are less sympathetic. In this case, I may just feel more sorry for Lysa because she's a woman, and my own preferences. I think this is what makes all the characters so interesting--it's almost as if we were all reading different books because our sympathies are formed from our experience as well as from our reading.

[Ser Kevan Raley]

Lysa gets none of my sympathy. And her years were not 'unusually' unhappy, barring the multiple miscarriages. Most women in this setting marry early. Sansa Stark has already gone through worse as a youngster than Lysa did, and she's already showing signs of becoming a better person.

Lysa does not get a free pass because she had a bad time. She's a weak, pathetic person who came to a weak, pathetic end. Her obsession with Robert destroyed what little chance of a decent or long life Robert could have had, and her weakness contributed to the war of the five kings.

Many characters in this setting deserve sympathy. Lysa bloody Arryn isn't one of them.

I give her the base empathy I'd give any human being in pain. But that coin doesn't go far when you tot up the things she's done and the way she's been twisted. In the end, the way events twist a person is a judge of the person, not the events, because you can always find someone who suffered more and turned out better.

Very much agreed! I'm not too fond of Catelyn either, but it's clear who the better sister is.

When I first read about her in AGoT, I was prepared to like her for no other reason than her being a Tully. Even after her over the top treatment of Tyrion. But the biggest Whisky-Tango-Foxtrot movement that made me turn around was when she started breast-feeding Sweetrobin. Ugh! :ack:

[iamthedave]

But the biggest Whisky-Tango-Foxtrot movement that made me turn around was when she started breast-feeding Sweetrobin. Ugh! :ack:

Nod

Nod

BTW, if we're going to start crying 'woe is Lysa' why not spare a thought for poor Littlefinger, who loved Cat enough to valiantly fight a man about twice the size of him and... five years, ten years older was it, and nearly get killed duelling for the right to her hand?

Oh the pain and the misery he must have felt! It surely explains everything he's done since, how can you not support him in his efforts to finally attain some power and make peace with the pain he felt as a boy by loving Sansatelyn!

Go, Littlefinger, go with our dreams and hopes! *blows kisses*

[Reaper]

I'm unable to feel sorry for an ugly, old wench that breast feeds 5 year olds.

I feel gross typing about it.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I'm unable to feel sorry for an ugly, old wench that breast feeds 5 year olds.

I feel gross typing about it.

So you only sympathize with young, beautiful people. Awesome!

....

If your real problem was her behaviour, fine, say that. Her age, sex, and physical appearance have nothing to do with that. The fact that you list them as the first two sympathy reducing characteristics is very telling.

Also Lysa's not old. She is a few years younger than Cat who is probably 30-35 at the start of aGoT.

[Reaper]

Your inability to joke is very telling.

She's aged badly, both mentally and physically. Cat is older, and in far better condition.

My quote was supposed to strike up the image of an older lady with wrinkled, sagging tits, breast feeding a five year old. Martin himself conjures up a pretty disturbing image of the same thing ..

Congratulations on trying to be an intelligent, morally superior human being.