Anyone else feel sorry for Lysa Arryn?

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Your inability to joke is very telling.

She's aged badly, both mentally and physically. Cat is older, and in far better condition.

My quote was supposed to strike up the image of an older lady with wrinkled, sagging tits, breast feeding a five year old. Martin himself conjures up a pretty disturbing image of the same thing ..

Congratulations on trying to be an intelligent, morally superior human being.

I feel your post is similar to those bumper stickers that say "I don't trust anything that bleeds for a week every month". Which are horribly mysogynistic.

[shadow catlady]

She's aged badly, both mentally and physically. Cat is older, and in far better condition.

My quote was supposed to strike up the image of an older lady with wrinkled, sagging tits, breast feeding a five year old. Martin himself conjures up a pretty disturbing image of the same thing ..

I think GRRM's portrayal is much more in-depth and much less focused on whether or not she is sexy to you. I am not sure how old you are, but there are plenty of women in their late 20's to mid-thirties who breastfeed new babies, and are not usually considered "older" women. The fact that your focus is equally on the alleged appearance of her breasts as the age of her child does seem to indicate a misogynist attitude. GRRM created a full character, but your quote compares the outer appearance of two sisters that ended up on very different life paths, which I don't think adds much to this topic.

[Jeejee]

Anyone who has sympathy for Lysa should just think of her unconventional breastfeeding habits.

I'm unable to feel sorry for an ugly, old wench that breast feeds 5 year olds.

Possibly because out of that list, only Lysa is clearly insane in her womb-obsession. All she is concerned about is getting "her" sweet Petyr in her vagina and keeping her "sweet" Robert from ever stopping being dependant on her and growing up from the pampered, cruel, self-absorbed little creep he is shown to be in all the books this far. He is supposed to become the Lord of the Vale, and if Lysa got her way he'd be sucking her tits in his wedding. Attachment parenting much? Crotch-obsessed and a moron to boot.

Lysa too, all she wanted was some LF dick through her hole, but what she got was the Little finger pushing her into 'a hole'

Really Lysa is entirely to blame for being 'damaged' goods by Westerosi standards. She could have kept her legs shut before she was bethrothed like she was supposed to and would likely have been much happier in the end.

Much of the dislike I'm seeing here seems to have to do with one of the following:

1. You find her personally repugnant because she's ugly or gross.

2. You think she deserves what she got because she had sex with LF.

I don't understand why either of these precludes the possibility of sympathy or pity. People here seem intent on seeing her as a whore (when she was remarkably faithful to LF), or consider her with derision because she loved a man who didn't love her back. (Frequently in TV/movies/books, women who desire men considered "better" than them are seen as shameful or pathetic.)

That being said, I can't stand the woman either, but I can't help but pity here. She failed in almost every aspect of her life, and one of the two only two things that brought her happiness turned out to be a lie. Her death was horrific.

[Lord Godric]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't like Lysa for the same reasons I don't like her son. I think they are both spoiled and mad. As for pity, I see no reason to pity her. The only real bad thing that happened in her life was having Petyr's child aborted, and she chose to allow that to ruin her life. I don't pity someone who simply throws a lifelong tantrum.

[Masha]

Much of the dislike I'm seeing here seems to have to do with one of the following:

1. You find her personally repugnant because she's ugly or gross.

2. You think she deserves what she got because she had sex with LF.

I don't understand why either of these precludes the possibility of sympathy or pity. People here seem intent on seeing her as a whore (when she was remarkably faithful to LF), or consider her with derision because she loved a man who didn't love her back. (Frequently in TV/movies/books, women who desire men considered "better" than them are seen as shameful or pathetic.)

That being said, I can't stand the woman either, but I can't help but pity here. She failed in almost every aspect of her life, and one of the two only two things that brought her happiness turned out to be a lie. Her death was horrific.

I find her personally repugnant because the way she behaves, the unnatural way she attached herself to her son, breastfeeding at 5 and almost sexual/abusive relationship with him and all, to the exclusion of everyone else other than LF. She is described as being pitiful but her cruel behaviour toward Sansa and other people does not endear her or prompt anyone feel sorry for her.

I think she deserves what she got, not because she had sex with LF, that kind of almost me feel sorry for her since LF was so obviously obsessed with Cat and she was a second choice with him, but she deserves what she got is because in trying to make LF like her and her obsession with her son, led to the whole (hopefully temporary) demise of House Stark. She basically poisoned her husband, lied about it to her sister especially knowing that at the end her sister's husband was set up for death by LF (and hoping her sister would have been as well). She knew that LF had plans to set up Ned (by making him suspicious of Cercei, feeding him the info and prompting him to rash actions and lying about allegiances), probably LF told her that Cat is being set up as well (we knew he was trying to get Cat for himself, she thought LF loved only her, Lisa). She knew all that and still did it.

Cat had never wronged her, LF was obsessed with Cat who rejected him, but still Lisa hated Cat and her husband and all her children. Thats why I think she deserved what she got. She made herself the victim and took others with her.

[The Sand Snake]

Do I feel bad for Lysa Arryn? Fuck no.

She lied to her sister for a guy who slept with her when she was 16. I think we've all been in love before. I don't think any of us betrayed our sister by sending her letters filled with lies that might have ended up getting a bunch of people killed. Nor did any of us murder our husband.

She almost through her niece to her death out of a window because she thought she kissed her husband? Mad or not she was a horrible person, and in the end, very stupid. Just because she was lovksick and had to endure an old husband doesn't mean she can do such horrible shit.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I think she deserves what she got, not because she had sex with LF, that kind of almost me feel sorry for her since LF was so obviously obsessed with Cat and she was a second choice with him, but she deserves what she got is because in trying to make LF like her and her obsession with her son, led to the whole (hopefully temporary) demise of House Stark. She basically poisoned her husband, lied about it to her sister especially knowing that at the end her sister's husband was set up for death by LF (and hoping her sister would have been as well). She knew that LF had plans to set up Ned (by making him suspicious of Cercei, feeding him the info and prompting him to rash actions and lying about allegiances), probably LF told her that Cat is being set up as well (we knew he was trying to get Cat for himself, she thought LF loved only her, Lisa). She knew all that and still did it.

I doubt that Lysa know nearly as much as you're suggesting. She is pretty simple-minded, and I think she did whatever LF told her without much thought beyond the immediate.

First, she killed Jon Arryn because LF promised they could be together once he was dead, and because she didn't want her son (one of only two people she cared about at all) sent to Dragonstone (where, to be honest, he wouldn't have been much better off considering how Stannis treats his daughter and what a sad place that is...!). The letter to Cat accusing the Lannisters was an effective way to keep suspicion off of her and Littlefinger for Jon's death. I don't think she thought that Ned or Cat would be in danger, and certainly I don't see any reason for Littlefinger to share with Lysa that he planned to have Ned killed once he reached KL (In fact we don't really know for sure what LF had planned for Ned)!

So yeah. Killing her husband's pretty awful. But he's basically treated her like crap since they've been married, so I can understand it. And I don't think she would have done it anyway without Littlefinger pressuring her.

[iamthedave]

I doubt that Lysa know nearly as much as you're suggesting. She is pretty simple-minded, and I think she did whatever LF told her without much thought beyond the immediate.

First, she killed Jon Arryn because LF promised they could be together once he was dead, and because she didn't want her son (one of only two people she cared about at all) sent to Dragonstone (where, to be honest, he wouldn't have been much better off considering how Stannis treats his daughter and what a sad place that is...!). The letter to Cat accusing the Lannisters was an effective way to keep suspicion off of her and Littlefinger for Jon's death. I don't think she thought that Ned or Cat would be in danger, and certainly I don't see any reason for Littlefinger to share with Lysa that he planned to have Ned killed once he reached KL (In fact we don't really know for sure what LF had planned for Ned)!

So yeah. Killing her husband's pretty awful. But he's basically treated her like crap since they've been married, so I can understand it. And I don't think she would have done it anyway without Littlefinger pressuring her.

Being thick is not much of a reason to give sympathy to selfish, childish, petulant, destructive fools.

I'm curious, where does it go into how Jon treated Lysa? I don't recall any account of him being actively abusive.

[Masha]

Being thick is not much of a reason to give sympathy to selfish, childish, petulant, destructive fools.

I'm curious, where does it go into how Jon treated Lysa? I don't recall any account of him being actively abusive.

The only thing I can remember regarding this from book is that he treated her very coldly and virtually ignored her leaving her to her own devices. Not enough reason, other than obsession with LF, to kill him. The only other excuse is her extreme attachment to Robert.

[amore]

She deserved sympathy for the way her pregnancy with LF was handled (i.e. the forced abortion) and her treatment from her father in general at that time. But as for the rest;

Pregnancy/Affair with LF - she was raised in a society where she would have known that her lot in life was to be married out for the political benefit of her family and that it was essential for her to be a virgin to have any chance of getting a marriage that would have been favourable to her. By sleeping with LF and getting pregnant she ruined that for herself.

Marriage to Jon Arryn - Considering her tarnished reputation this was actually as good a marriage as she could have hoped for. He may have been old and not as physically attractive as she may have wanted but he was the second most powerful man in the Kingdom and a pretty solid bloke morally. Considering her above failing she should have been thankful.

As for the rest, many women fail to have as many children as they would like and/or suffer abortions. Unhappy marriages are also common. Does any of this justify her future actions towards her family, her son, husband or the general population of Westeros in general? No chance - she turned to the dark side so easily she would have found her way there by some other means even if the early events of her life had been different. She was a nasty, self absorbed person who got what she deserved in the end and any sympathy she may have warranted for the early events would have been totally nullified by the end.

[Nukelavee]

I will admit...going out the gate like that... yeah, that's a nasty last instant, especially with Petyr's spiteful exit line.

I do feel sorry for Robert, tho. Sure he's a vile child... hardly his fault at all. He's not likable, but he's not beyond salvage. Honestly, I think it would be kinda satisfying if Sansa managed to both straighten the kid out a bit, and actually helped him survive his step-father. Why?

Because, it would SO derail Petyr's plans. A fine revenge upon the man central to her family's downfall. Besides, she's Sansa, of House Stark. All it will take is for one person she can trust, in the right place, and she doesn't need Petyr's plans to achieve power... if she wants it.

And with the Lannisters in trouble...she might not need to fear them much longer.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Being thick is not much of a reason to give sympathy to selfish, childish, petulant, destructive fools.

I don't disagree - I was responding to the assertion that Lysa ever suspected that her actions would destroy the Stark family. The only person who knew that was Petyr Baelish.

I'm curious, where does it go into how Jon treated Lysa? I don't recall any account of him being actively abusive.

He was cold to her, never giving her affection because she slept with someone else before him. It seems like he basically saw her a few times a year to get her pregnant and otherwise ignored her. A man with as many years as Jon Arryn should swallow his snooty pride a bit and actually try to be a good husband - man up! Be kind to her, win her affections.

And it's quite possible to think that someone has done horrible, awful things and yet still have sympathy for them because a lot of terrible things have happened to them also. Tyrion I'm looking at you on this one.

[amore]

I don't disagree - I was responding to the assertion that Lysa ever suspected that her actions would destroy the Stark family. The only person who knew that was Petyr Baelish.

He was cold to her, never giving her affection because she slept with someone else before him. It seems like he basically saw her a few times a year to get her pregnant and otherwise ignored her. A man with as many years as Jon Arryn should swallow his snooty pride a bit and actually try to be a good husband - man up! Be kind to her, win her affections.

And it's quite possible to think that someone has done horrible, awful things and yet still have sympathy for them because a lot of terrible things have happened to them also. Tyrion I'm looking at you on this one.

I agree that people who have done horrible things can still deserve sympathy for things that have happened to them, on an instant by instant empathic basis, but ... taking into account what we know about Lysa's general character and actions, i.e. murdering her husband, conspiring with LF to bring wholesale bloody war to the whole kingdom, throwing people to their deaths for non-offences purely for amusement (teaching her young son the same moral standards) and threatening to kill her niece purely out of jealousy, is it not reasonable to assume that she didn't exactly stike the perfect wifey pose and that Jon Arryn actually got the raw end of the deal in that marriage?

[iamthedave]

He was cold to her, never giving her affection because she slept with someone else before him. It seems like he basically saw her a few times a year to get her pregnant and otherwise ignored her. A man with as many years as Jon Arryn should swallow his snooty pride a bit and actually try to be a good husband - man up! Be kind to her, win her affections.

And it's quite possible to think that someone has done horrible, awful things and yet still have sympathy for them because a lot of terrible things have happened to them also. Tyrion I'm looking at you on this one.

That's a completely unreasonable expectation. If he did that he would be extremely atypical for a Westerosi man, let alone an old man set in his ways and renowned for his strict honour. Remember: Arryn did her a favour by even agreeing to the marriage, he could easily have chosen to take offense to the idea of being attached to damaged goods.

Lysa - Woman up! Jon Arryn did everything expected of him. Lysa didn't.

Even in this, it's all her own fault.

And I have to second the thought that Lysa wouldn't have helped herself out in this regard. I'd expect she'd be petulant in the extreme, and unrepentant.

[Masha]

I will admit...going out the gate like that... yeah, that's a nasty last instant, especially with Petyr's spiteful exit line.

I do feel sorry for Robert, tho. Sure he's a vile child... hardly his fault at all. He's not likable, but he's not beyond salvage. Honestly, I think it would be kinda satisfying if Sansa managed to both straighten the kid out a bit, and actually helped him survive his step-father. Why?

Because, it would SO derail Petyr's plans. A fine revenge upon the man central to her family's downfall. Besides, she's Sansa, of House Stark. All it will take is for one person she can trust, in the right place, and she doesn't need Petyr's plans to achieve power... if she wants it.

And with the Lannisters in trouble...she might not need to fear them much longer.

Still not sure about Sansa. She got a lot better in recent book but still too naive and doesn't think things through. I need to recheck AFwC but I remember she was still scared, and learning GoT politcs and not thinking any nasty/revenge thoughts toward LF.

I am not sure that she is actually smart enough to realize that his actions and manipulations led to her fathers death and current downfall of House Stark and that it was his plan all along. All she knows that he is a scary but smart uncle/father figure who is teaching her politics and had an old crush on her mother and thus likes to think she might have been his daughter and treats her as such.

[Nukelavee]

I don't mean she's ready to be a power player yet...

But she does know way too much about Petyr's involvments to live if he stops being pedo-Petyr. I'd have to go and check to be postive, but I think Lysa kinda spilled a lot of beans before Petyr killed her.

Also - I think she feels a little bit of, well, obligation and "affection" to Robert, not a lot, but enough to motivate her. One thing about her we've seen recently - she can be brave, if it's for other people.

Now - should she and Arya ever get to compare adventures...well, a lot of people are screwed. (mind you, by the time anything like that happens, people are really gonna be screwed anyways.

[Jeejee]

By all accounts, she spent almost the entirety of her life deeply unhappy and lacking in human affection. She married a man who was emotionally distant, who took her to a secluded place where there were few people she could befriend. It seems the only outlet for affection she found was her son, after repeated miscarriages of children she must have wanted desperately. I wish I could remember the scene where Cat muses over the fact that Lysa's being sent to the Eyrie must have been horribly lonely (and could not have come at a worse time). I find her to be a deeply tragic character.

So please don't counter with "But she killed her husband!" "She would have killed her niece!" "She breastfed for too long, OMG!" No one is trying to justify Lysa's actions; we all know she's selfish, mentally unstable, childish. She's a nasty piece of work. The question is whether we should pity her.

[Miang]

"She breastfed for too long, OMG!"

Her long-term breastfeeding of Robbert Arryn was abusive - as was much of her upbringing of her son. It crippled him as a person, and it always had a very sexually charged feeling in the novels - like she was one step away from molesting him. What would the relationship have evolved into if she had survived? She certainly wasn't going to stop breastfeeding him. You said not to counter with this, as if the reasoning behind it is not good enough to destroy a person's instincts to pity another person but I have to disagree. Whatever Lysa Arryn suffered you can't ignore the abuse she meted out against her son. However unhappy her life may be child abuse is one of the few things that eradicates my capacity to feel pity/empathy for someone.

[Ragnarok73]

I admit it- I was glad to see her die in ASoS when LF shoved her out the Moon Door. Lysa is a woman who just never grew up. In part, I blame Lord Hoster for being a lousy father, but he also raised Cat and Edmure who turned out OK. Hoster should have given Lysa a few backhands across the face to snap her into reality and keep her there.

[Ealasaid]

I admit it- I was glad to see her die in ASoS when LF shoved her out the Moon Door. Lysa is a woman who just never grew up. In part, I blame Lord Hoster for being a lousy father, but he also raised Cat and Edmure who turned out OK. Hoster should have given Lysa a few backhands across the face to snap her into reality and keep her there.

I have been laboring under the idea Hoster Tully was not the best of fathers. We don't have much information. Since there was some squabble with the Blackfish that caused him to live in the Vale all those years, it seems Edmure must have been the hier. Why wasn't Edmure safely married off when Hoster discovered he was ill?

And I have never been sure of this business with Lysa. All we have are Cat's ruminations. How far along was Lysa when she was married off? And how would Hoster Tully have known that Lysa had sex with LF and that she was pregnant? Unless Lysa told him in hopes that Hoster would then let them marry? So she had to be several months along.

Also, we don't know much about Jon Arryn. Both Robert and Ned refer to him as an old man. Lysa is the only person who tells us how he treated her, and she is unrelaible as a reporter.

From what Lysa does tell us, Jon Arryn did everything she asked in promoting LF. I don't think Jon Arryn was such a bad husband. She complained of his mouth odor. Lysa had some odor problems of her own, that Sansa noted.

I feel sorry for her. I understand why she felt driven to do what she did. That does not mean I condone her behavoir. I think she was a woman who felt sorry for herself, and probably daily went over every single one of the injustices she thought had been done to her throughout her life. As pointed out by several posters, she reveled in being a vicitm.