Swiss Referendum on Minarets

[Usotsuki]

Especially not when Erdogan said that "our minarets are our bayonets"

Erdogan and some other enterprising souls were given a platform since they were the only ones saying something

How can Erdogan's recitation of a line of poetry whilst campaigning against a corrupt and militantly secular elite in Turkey be an intervention in a Swiss political debate that happened a decade later. Minarets our bayonets, mosques our barracks and the Koran our guide to time travel?

The leader of the AKP in Turkey is not a spokesman for the Muslim community in Switzerland nor did he take any part in the debate in Switzerland, regrettably it seems that your expert on another board is an idiot.

[TerraPrime]

the Koran our guide to time travel

Tell me more.

[Usotsuki]

Tell me more.

Later or possibly earlier. :P

[TerraPrime]

Later or possibly earlier. :P

Clock tease.

[mormont]

It was not exactly a description. More a European view (yeah, not Mormont and the other enlightened souls on this thread) of what religion should be.

This is a bit confused, again: but are you presuming to tell people what I think religion should be?

But Rushdie went in hiding, still is, and a number of shops refused to sell his books out of fear or to not offend muslim customers. That's some serious power - compare it with Dan Brown's books; how many bookshops, outside of evangelical US maybe, refused to sell those?

The hazards of anecdotal evidence: you can pick and choose the anecdote to suit. A more general point would be, have Christians mounted effective and widespread boycotts of books and movies and artworks that they find blasphemous? And the answer would be 'yes'. Not as much as they did a few decades back, maybe, but still quite common.

On the first point, we're thankfully a long way from the days when Christians did that kind of thing. On this subject, I don't think I need to be lectured, though - I was outraged by the fatwa in 1989, I have condemned it many times and in many venues since. I would hope that it is not necessary to be constantly condemning stuff like this in each and every conversation about Islam in order to establish one's bona fides, however - that would be a facile and idiotic requirement.

I agree with the other posters who have highlighted the incongruent reactions of this board towards the religious intolerance that can be found in Switzerland (no more minarets) versus the religious intolerance that can be found in countries such as Saudi Arabia (death penalty for converts, for example). On this board we find a formidable outcry in the case of threatened minarets and complete silence in the case of dead converts.

On the other hand, apparently some people really are that facile.

What happened to debating points, instead of blanket accusations of lying which you even present as "being fair" or "being friendly". You haven't pointed out any "untrue statement" at all. Just a sweeping accusation of lying.

Don't recall ever suggesting I was being friendly.

As for 'untrue statements', people have been pointing them out for the last couple of pages.

"Any size"? I live in Mechelen.

OK, a quick Google turns up a reference to one mosque (ETA - to be fair, the other may not be big enough to come up on a Google search): and a good deal more than 16 churches.

Of course it is possible to eat while you are not being observed. I'm indeed the one suggesting that. Maybe in England it isn't, due to some bizarre reason?

I wouldn't know. Don't live there. :P

Let me repeat it slowly: I was making an observation that my muslim co-workers are quite serious about being practising muslims (or at least, they present themselves as such). This is not necessarily the case for christians here, quite seldom even.

And let me repeat for you slowly: you are doing nothing here but stating a tautology, that people identifiable as Muslims tend to do things that make them identifiable as Muslims.

[The Stranger]

It was not exactly a description. More a European view (yeah, not Mormont and the other enlightened souls on this thread) of what religion should be.

It's a specifically Protestant view of what religion should be.

A community of believers implies a community of unbelievers, and thus opponents. Not good. You should think for yourself, not blindly go by what the community or the religious leaders say. As a Christian for example, you should be able to ask yourself: what's the chance that creation really went literally the way the bible describes it? If you're part of a community, it should be a community of people, not "believers".

in the attempt to create a dichotomy, you've actually just created a false dichotomy. congrats.

If you allow cars, why bother to have a speedlimit ... right?

no no no. this isn't the argument you just made. you just said that Swiss Muslims were perfectly free to be Muslims.

But Rushdie went in hiding, still is, and a number of shops refused to sell his books out of fear or to not offend muslim customers. That's some serious power - compare it with Dan Brown's books; how many bookshops, outside of evangelical US maybe, refused to sell those?

this is not the point you're bringing up: you're bringing up the power of imams, etc. vis-a-vis any other religious authority, most specifically the pope. also, i don't think evangelicals in the US were too upset by those books--not as much as they have been at Harry Potter, at any rate.

As for Papal "fatwas" on sex habits - the muslim influence on sex habits (and marriage customs) is at least as influential and probably on even more people (though this thankfully seems to be waning a bit now with younger European muslims - allthough arranged marriages are still quite common). That the islam is not unified is true, but that doesn't mean they're not a force to be reckoned with.

once again, you're changing goalposts. you first argued that no other religious figure in the world was as powerful as individual Muslim religious figures. then you say that "muslim influence" is as influential--but you don't say that it is the results of individual people, which was the comparison you'd initially brought up. then you make the unabashedly crazy statement that Islam is not a unified phenomenon, but can still be talked about as a single quantity.

No specific muslim leader is behind everything or has all the power, but when it comes to things like perceived or real insults to islam a lot of factions can suddenly be united against the offender.

again, whether a group of leaders can unite around a single extremely popular cause isn't at all what you were talking about: you said that these leaders were the most powerful figures in any religion. now you're saying that smaller leaders can unite into larger movements, or something. not the same postulate you advanced earlier.

And regardless, up to what? A billion? believers is a serious force no matter what.

once again, you previously said that Islam was not a unified phenomenon. now you're revealing that you actually think it is, at least for the purposes of being Euro-scared about it. Per your original comparison, however, let's say that a billion believers is a "serious force no matter what [apparently "what" in this case meaning "no matter if I've already admitted this billion doesn't really exist"] seeing as you've already allowed for the fact that no single Muslim leader is as influential as the Pope, would the fact that the Pope is the absolute leader of an organization larger than a billion people mean that you have yourself proven your comparison to be foolish?

As if that doesn't happen all the time with laws. Someone's rights end where another starts, and laws are always negative for someone. Our local horeca feels our coming anti-smoking laws are prejudiced against them. So do smokers, I suppose.

again, moving the goal posts. you previously said their rights were not being infringed upon. also, you have an uncanny tendency to hide behind the equivalence fallacy whenever something rattles your argument.

[Alexia]

this is not the point you're bringing up: you're bringing up the power of imams, etc. vis-a-vis any other religious authority, most specifically the pope. also, i don't think evangelicals in the US were too upset by those books--not as much as they have been at Harry Potter, at any rate.

Speaking of Harry Potter...

Harry Potter books burnt

J.K. Rowling Death Threats

[Lord Mord]

Jaerv,

Don't you think that if a country has already organized itself around democratic and tolerant principles that a higher standard should be imposed that they maintain a sound record?

Also -- if and when SA, for example, should undertake some new and radical constitutional amendment, I am pretty sure you will see a thread discussing it on this board. If you don't see the thread, you could start it, and I'm even more sure that you would see a long conversation unfold.

The charge of racism is fascinating, and if there's actual support for it, then I'd like to see it, because no one here would want to let such a thing pass unchanged. As you spend more time here, I hope that will become more evident.

[Wouter]

And where are you standing in relation to Islam? I have absolutely no understanding why, out of the many things genuinely wrong in Islamic countries/culture, you would choose observance of Ramadan to pick on. In certain communities there are honor killings, women not allowed to work or leave the house without a male guardian, etc., but observance of Ramadan is the real problem?

Luckily I have never observed honor killings. I have seen Ramadan being observed, though. It was merely an observation of muslims devoutness.

And building a minaret is the real problem? And how does observance of Ramadan affect you or any other Swiss/European?

Rising power of religion is the problem. Europe is just emerging from 100s of years of strict christianity in various forms, I have no desire to move back to that, not even a little.

ETA: And if you don't believe, why would you marry in front of the church or having your kids baptized? Is it because you fear to lose your eternal life or something like that? Shouldn't you question your beliefs first? Like, what am I exactly doing here and is there a good reason for that?

Obviously not. As I wrote, people like to have traditional rituals. Even in spite of not believing anymore.

[Wouter]

Unbelievers are not necessarily opponents, although its clear that you are. I am an "unbeliever" in Islam, but not an opponent. The religious beliefs of another person are not my business.

Throughout history, religions have made their beliefs other people's business.

I suggest you learn about Mormons, another branch of Christianity. I would further venture to suggest that Christians in Islamic countries most likely have their marriages arranged too, as it is really a cultural thing. I would go even farther and point out that historically in Christian society, marriages were arranged and sex was only supposed to occur within the context of a marriage, and that Hindus also arrange marriages.

We do agree that arranging marriages is bad, do we?

[Alexia]

We do agree that arranging marriages is bad, do we?

No, we don't. I couldn't give less of a damn if someone else chooses to participate in an arranged marriage as long as no one attempts to arrange a marriage for ME. Forced marriage is a different kettle of fish entirely, which I do think is bad.

Throughout history, religions have made their beliefs other people's business.

And oddly enough, I've had more of a problem with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses attempting to make their beliefs my business than I have with Muslims. I have never had any Muslim attempt to proselytize to me (not even during the college course I took with an imam!), although I have had a very warm reception whenever I have asked questions about religious tenets.

Never had any Muslims knock on my door trying to convert me either.

[Alexia]

Luckily I have never observed honor killings. I have seen Ramadan being observed, though. It was merely an observation of muslims devoutness.

Are Easter and Christmas observed where you are? How about Lent? What makes that any different from observing Ramadan?

I'd be willing to bet that Easter and Christmas are even more widely observed than Ramadan in any Western European country.

[Wouter]

What a terrible line of argument. If we follow that logic, then we'd have to agree that all Christians are Jewish, too, because, well, Jesus was Jewish and he was the cornerstone of all Christian faiths.

Either your thinking really is as vacuous as this argument indicates, or you have barely thought about what you wrote for more than 3 seconds.

Thanks for the respect for the opponent Terra :thumbsup:

Anyway, they don't call it the judeo-christian faith for nothing. Jewish customs did help shape Europe. Regardless of what you call terrible or vacuous, Muhammed and his direct successors did write a book and addenda on how to live your life - do you deny muslims follow this book, to the letter in some cases? And what did Muhammed base his mores on, do you think?

If this move to outlaw the construction of minarets is aimed to impose a monolithic cultural point of view on what constitutes a proper religion, then, you're admitting that they're limiting people's freedom of religion, by default. In other words, your justification above is an unabashed manifesto on what religions should or should not be. It's inconsistent for you to argue then, that the move to outlaw minarets is not a move to limit the religious freedom of Muslims in Switzerland. Which is, incidentally, what people are criticizing this law for. You can't argue both lines at once. You can't say on one hand that this law is not an infringement of religious freedom, while on the other hand try to justify this infringement.

The move to outlaw minarets is a shot over the bow of political islam, I have said this from the beginning. Is that an infringement of religious freedom? Depends if you view the existence of minarets as a crucial element in their religion. I certainly don't think it's horrible and the reactions here are totally overblown.

Yes, and laws against rapists and murderers are discriminatory against them, too. The issue is whether the sanction imposed is justified or not. Simply saying that all laws are restrictive and therefore, the restriction of the construction of minarets is acceptable is an invalid argument. You must justify the restriction. Or, in your case, you need to decide if this is a restriction in the first place.

It is a restriction - and I have been defending it.

[Wouter]

The leader of the AKP in Turkey is not a spokesman for the Muslim community in Switzerland nor did he take any part in the debate in Switzerland, regrettably it seems that your expert on another board is an idiot.

Maybe he is and Erdogan's words were only brought out during the campaign. Though he still said them - in what context exactly?

[TerraPrime]

Re: Wouter

Anyway, they don't call it the judeo-christian faith for nothing. Jewish customs did help shape Europe. Regardless of what you call terrible or vacuous, Muhammed and his direct successors did write a book and addenda on how to live your life - do you deny muslims follow this book, to the letter in some cases? And what did Muhammed base his mores on, do you think?

That's entirely disingenuous. The term Judaeo-Christian faith refers to the etiological root of Christian faiths, not to the fact that Christians are considered to be Jewish. The critique here is your classifying Muslims in Switzerland as Arabic on the basis of their adherence to the religion that was defined by an Arab. It is an invalid argument unless you also call all Christians Jewish. Do you?

It seems to me that you made the common mistake in stereotyping all Muslims as Arabs, and then when the Stranger called you out on it, you just attempted to talk your way out instead of admitting that you made a mistake. That's how we end up with this absurd argument that the ethnic/cultural heritage of the key figure in a religion is subsequently bestowed on all the followers of that religion following hundreds of years of development. The more you argue this point, the more absurd your position becomes. But don't let that stop you.

The move to outlaw minarets is a shot over the bow of political islam, I have said this from the beginning. Is that an infringement of religious freedom? Depends if you view the existence of minarets as a crucial element in their religion. I certainly don't think it's horrible and the reactions here are totally overblown.

Whether you think the restriction is horrible or not does not factor into whether the restriction is warranted. It would not be horrible to mandate that all Christians wear their crucifixes inside their clothing, either, but I think you will find that most Christians will find that law to be an infringement. The issue is justifying the restriction, and you have yet to provide any sound justification. There are other ways to rattle "political Islam," whatever that entity entails, without having to restrict the religious freedom of all Muslims, without regard to whether they belong to this "political Islam" group.

It is a restriction - and I have been defending it.

Then it'd do you well to rescind some of your earlier argument concerning how minarets are not needed for worship and therefore, restricting the construction of minarets is not a restriction on their freedom.

[Wouter]

This is a bit confused, again: but are you presuming to tell people what I think religion should be?

Not at all; I was specifically not including you in what is IMO the "European" view.

The hazards of anecdotal evidence: you can pick and choose the anecdote to suit. A more general point would be, have Christians mounted effective and widespread boycotts of books and movies and artworks that they find blasphemous? And the answer would be 'yes'. Not as much as they did a few decades back, maybe, but still quite common.

Examples?

Don't recall ever suggesting I was being friendly.

Don't use smileys next time if you don't want to suggest that.

As for 'untrue statements', people have been pointing them out for the last couple of pages.

People have been saying they disagree and argued points, which is not the same. From my POV you guys have equally been making "untrue statements", then.

OK, a quick Google turns up a reference to one mosque (ETA - to be fair, the other may not be big enough to come up on a Google search): and a good deal more than 16 churches.

There are 2 mosques in Mechelen that I know off: "Mechelse moskee" on the Olivetenvest and Al-Buraq in the Generaal De Ceuninckstraat. They are mentioned here: http://forum.rojm.be/index.php?topic=187.0

Maybe you were a bit quick in your Google? As for the churches, did you include the Paterskerk (hotel), Minderbroederskerk (community center) or the churches in the villages around Mechelen (which are administratively part of Mechelen)? Care to list them? I did say active churches and in Mechelen.

And let me repeat for you slowly: you are doing nothing here but stating a tautology, that people identifiable as Muslims tend to do things that make them identifiable as Muslims.

Is it so terribly hard to understand that it is far from a tautology that people considering themselves as members of a certain religion may yet not follow every rule usually associated with that religion? By your reasoning, it's a tautology that everyone who considers himself Jew stricly observes the sabbat - like, only x amount of steps and so.

Still, I think there are Jews on this board who don't.

[Usotsuki]

Maybe he is and Erdogan's words were only brought out during the campaign. Though he still said them - in what context exactly?

During his campaign against the prohibition of the Welfare party for endangering the secular nature of the Turkish Republic, he was then jailed.

[Wouter]

No, we don't. I couldn't give less of a damn if someone else chooses to participate in an arranged marriage as long as no one attempts to arrange a marriage for ME. Forced marriage is a different kettle of fish entirely, which I do think is bad.

Arranged marriages tend to be forced by their nature.

And oddly enough, I've had more of a problem with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses attempting to make their beliefs my business than I have with Muslims. I have never had any Muslim attempt to proselytize to me (not even during the college course I took with an imam!), although I have had a very warm reception whenever I have asked questions about religious tenets.

Never had any Muslims knock on my door trying to convert me either.

Good for you, and sure, Jehovah's witnesses are annoying. But remember that others may have different experiences - what about Christians in Turkey (quite a few of them now here in Belgium) or Jews in Iran? Officially they are tolerated, but in practice it seems they often want to leave the country.

Are Easter and Christmas observed where you are? How about Lent? What makes that any different from observing Ramadan?

I'd be willing to bet that Easter and Christmas are even more widely observed than Ramadan in any Western European country.

Observed? We do give each other gifts with Christmas, we set a christmas tree (which is actually a pre-christian custom) and we eat alot. Is that observing Christmas? The number of people going to a midnight church service is higher than normal, sure, but personally I have not gone to such a sercive for years and many others don't either. Same for Easter.

I don't even know what Lent is.

[Wouter]

That's entirely disingenuous. The term Judaeo-Christian faith refers to the etiological root of Christian faiths, not to the fact that Christians are considered to be Jewish. The critique here is your classifying Muslims in Switzerland as Arabic on the basis of their adherence to the religion that was defined by an Arab. It is an invalid argument unless you also call all Christians Jewish. Do you?

Pretty much, yes. I did not classify Muslims in Switserland as Arabs, I said that the islamic culture (in my view Islam is more than just an ordinary religion, it is a complete worldview, an instruction on how to live, and as such it has cultural elements attached to it) is based on the Arab one. This goes just as much for converts as for, say, Bosnians. Islam is a mutual influence on them, including in some cultural values. By the same token, the Jewish way of thinking has been a major influence on shaping Europe and later America through christianity.

It seems to me that you made the common mistake in stereotyping all Muslims as Arabs, and then when the Stranger called you out on it, you just attempted to talk your way out instead of admitting that you made a mistake. That's how we end up with this absurd argument that the ethnic/cultural heritage of the key figure in a religion is subsequently bestowed on all the followers of that religion following hundreds of years of development. The more you argue this point, the more absurd your position becomes. But don't let that stop you.

You assume a lot, Terra. You're also dead wrong. What is absurd is the hysterics in this thread about those stupid minarets. You guys seem to be more sensitive about this than most muslims themselves.

Then it'd do you well to rescind some of your earlier argument concerning how minarets are not needed for worship and therefore, restricting the construction of minarets is not a restriction on their freedom.

It is ridiculous to say minarets are needed for worship. Just as ridiculous as saying you need a grand cathedral with great riches inside and a tall tower or you can't worship properly.

Incidentally, the mosques here don't have minarets. I guess you will need to tell our muslims that they can't properly worship without them.

[Alexia]

Arranged marriages tend to be forced by their nature.

And you know this how? Have you met anyone in an arranged marriage? Any experience with this at all? Any voice from the other side?

But remember that others may have different experiences - what about Christians in Turkey (quite a few of them now here in Belgium) or Jews in Iran? Officially they are tolerated, but in practice it seems they often want to leave the country.

What about Muslims in Israel and France? Jews in Germany/Austria/Russia? What about Christians in atheist China?

Iran is no bastion of religious tolerance but they haven’t run a Holocaust or a Spanish Inquisition either.

Observed? We do give each other gifts with Christmas, we set a christmas tree (which is actually a pre-christian custom) and we eat alot. Is that observing Christmas? The number of people going to a midnight church service is higher than normal, sure, but personally I have not gone to such a sercive for years and many others don't either. Same for Easter.

So you do observe religious holidays. Why? Is it peer pressure? Is it because you fear to lose your eternal life or something like that? Shouldn't you question your beliefs first? Like, what am I exactly doing here and is there a good reason for that? And why do you get to observe your Christian holidays but its somehow wrong for Muslims to observe theirs?

Lent is the season between Ash Wednesday and Easter Sunday. The strictest traditions prevent you from eating any meat at all during that period of time (a fast of sorts). A lot of people I know observe it in one way or another. I observe by not eating meat on Fridays.