Montreal Massacre - 20 years on

[Chaldanya]

It puts me, as a feminist, in quite a bind when other people, for example, speaking for all feminists, tell, say S John, who I consider to be a feminist, that he doesn't get it, or is being sexist. That individual can feel however they want, but it comes across as dogmatic and intentionally exlcusionary to do so on behalf of all feminists. There is room for all of our opinions underneath this tent, as long as we all agree that men and women should have equal opportunities and be treated equally under the law.

That's something you read into it, tho Raidne. At no point do I ever say that I speak for all feminists everywhere when I post on such matters because I plainly don't and couldn't and wouldn't want to. If you disagree fair-dos but in no way does it put you in a bind.

N

[TerraPrime]

I'll desist from discussing rape further in this case. I agree that it is distracting and inappropriate. I'm sorry that I added to the derailment.

[Guest Raidne]

Er, maybe I need to reconsider the kind of place I hang out, but I do worry, and monitor, and obsess - how am I dressed? How do I look? Whats the signal here? and then have to mentially decide, fuck it, I will not to let this stuff control my life so often. What gets me is all the times when I do think, "wow, this would be safer/simpler/easier/more acceptable if only I were male." Maybe i'm wrong though, and its just neighbours grass. I do plenty of quite universally stupid stuff . :dunno:

Nah, I don't think it's even debatable that in all the ways that really matter, things are easier if you're male. Otherwise, transgendered people who become male wouldn't be so much happier than transgendered people who become female - who have much higher rates of switching back.

But, as far as monitoring yourself, no, I don't really do that except to see if I'm nipping through my shirt.

To be fair, I have noticed that I get more unwanted comments since becoming a blond, and I've thought about dyeing my hair back for that reason, so I do get what you're saying, but for the most part, there's no rhyme or reason to what will lead to unwanted comments on the street as far as dress, etc.

Oh, for sure. But he was a sexist murderer, and it seems to me like it's important to remember that, becuase when its ignored, that is anti-femenist. Saying this guy was influenced by sexism in society just dosen't seem anything at all like a strech to me - he wasn't the first person to come up with the idea smart women shouldn't be allowed to have dumb men's jobs.

Oh yes, it would be hard to even approach being more of a sexist than Lepine. But I still think it's more accurate to say that he was influenced by the sexism of his father more than, say, society. Not to pick on Algeria, but I think an expectation of female submission is more prevalent in that culture than it is in Canada.

Also, if I'm remembering correctly, if I was exposed to the shit you have to hear every day about women from your male colleagues, it wouldn't be long until I started presuming that half of all the men I met were potential date rapists. Not to say that's how you feel, but that's about how bad it would be for me.

And just generally, not specifically directed at anything you've said, DP, for a long, long time I have struggled with the issue of hate speech against women. I used to be firmly on the side of, say, handing out detention to a student who expressed, say, that men naturally make better leaders, and therefore all leaders should be men (as a female student argued in my 11th grade humanities class - and yes, I still vividly remember it), but now I think that makes us look afraid. We - women - are not a numerical minority. We have more college degrees and we are strong. We are capable of getting what we want without having to silence anyone. And I feel like we've taken the approach of seeking silence instead of understanding on this thread.

Having said that, threatening violence against women or harassing a woman is a different thing.

[Guest Raidne]

That's something you read into it, tho Raidne. At no point do I ever say that I speak for all feminists everywhere when I post on such matters because I plainly don't and couldn't and wouldn't want to. If you disagree fair-dos but in no way does it put you in a bind.

Sorry for the double-post, but Chal, when you say that all statements you disagree with will be refuted by a cursory review of an introduction to feminism textbook, I can't imagine what else you would be saying. Because by those terms, if I disagree with you, that I am not familiar with feminism. Maybe you meant to phrase it a different way?

[Datepalm]

Oh yes, it would be hard to even approach being more of a sexist than Lepine. But I still think it's more accurate to say that he was influenced by the sexism of his father more than, say, society. Not to pick on Algeria, but I think an expectation of female submission is more prevalent in that culture than it is in Canada.

For him as person, i'm sure his father was far more influential, but the way the crime was covered, where the emphasis - and the blame - was placed, I do think is somewhat sexist, in marginalizing the anti-woman aspect of it, and acting like this very sexist act is somehow shocking and incomprehensible in motivation, rather than a very extreme acting out of not uncommon ideas that are out there in much more acceptable guises.

And just generally, not specifically directed at anything you've said, DP, for a long, long time I have struggled with the issue of hate speech against women. I used to be firmly on the side of, say, handing out detention to a student who expressed, say, that men naturally make better leaders, and therefore all leaders should be men (as a female student argued in my 11th grade humanities class - and yes, I still vividly remember it), but now I think that makes us look afraid. We - women - are not a numerical minority. We have more college degrees and we are strong. We are capable of getting what we want without having to silence anyone. And I feel like we've taken the approach of seeking silence instead of understanding on this thread.

I kind of want to agree, but in education at least, which is where I mostly am, when teachers - and female students - tolerate this kind of stuff, or even give it a platform as "the other side of the debate", that encourages kids, who are impressionable, into these extremely annoying "Sure, I think women are as good as men, but i'm not like a feminist or anything crazy like that..." attitudes.

Oh, in other news - all my recent overnight work gigs have been all-female, so no chance to test out attitudes. (Someone new - female - did go "Oh, you're her! I've heard you're really mean!" to me, but then said i'm actually really nice and she's on my side now after a few minutes conversation.)

[Chaldanya]

Sorry for the double-post, but Chal, when you say that all statements you disagree with will be refuted by a cursory review of an introduction to feminism textbook, I can't imagine what else you would be saying. Because by those terms, if I disagree with you, that I am not familiar with feminism. Maybe you meant to phrase it a different way?

Not a textbook; it's a website and I agree with most of what's posted and it was a shorthand way of getting my opinion across without having to type it out for the nth time (Just like Kat has with the rape culture post from Shakesville). Honest to god I came onto a thread last night and saw more of the same denial shit 'women aren't seen as less than' and I frankly couldn't be arsed to refute it with a well reasoned out post so I linky linked to a website.

What else could I be saying: "Here go to this website it pretty much sums up my thoughts on most things re: feminism cause I can't be arsed to type it out". But hey, I'm sure you know what I meant to say better than I did...

N

[Guest Raidne]

What else could I be saying: "Here go to this website it pretty much sums up my thoughts on most things re: feminism cause I can't be arsed to type it out". But hey, I'm sure you know what I meant to say better than I did...

How's this: I will make a mental note that for you, "Feminism 101" means "my personal take on feminism" and not, say, "Basic Principles of Feminism on which All Feminists Agree."

By the way, I haven't used the + or - feature on this thread, so that's not me. Just sayin'

To Datepalm - I am lacking the full information on the news coverage of the event after the event, so I'm not giving my fully informed judgment, but while I know there a negative view of women in sciences is depressingly prevalent, and pro-female affirmative action is sometimes vehemently opposed, I still find a mass murder of female math and science students to shockingly unpredictable, unlike, say, spousal murder.

I hear you on the education thing. OTOH, that anti-feminist label sentiment you quoted was voiced by fully half of the female students in one of my feminism classes, so what are you going to do about it? Of course, what did happen was that the other half of the class (including me) kind of piled on them for being, well, stupid and annoying (expressed in a more substantive fashion, of course), and it split the class for the rest of the semester and probably guaranteed that those women were never going to call themselves feminists.

Even if you can control what's said about women in a class, there's still the media, their family, religion, etc., etc., etc. If it gets discussed, then people know the counter-arguments.

Also, that's depressing that the word is now that you're "mean," but I'm glad it's easily solved with a little face time.

[potsherds]

No, we admit he's fucking crazy and that Helter Skelter was just a crazy excuse in his crazy mind.

Why should we blame a sexist culture for the actions of a crazy man when the fact that he's fucking crazy is the reason he did it?

I haven't read the entire thread, and in fact, I'm rather sure this has been addressed by many others already, and certainly much better than I will. But look, naysayers, and fricken listen.

Western culture very assuredly permits, condones, and encourages violence against women. It does. In the media, in rape jokes, in bad humour of other forms about womens' bodies, looks, intelligence, etc., in the nasty remarks men make about women in all-male groups whether they be jokes or not. In the way violence against women is sexualized or seen as sexy or erotic. Violence against women pervades our culture in ways that say, shooting up schools or offices does not. So yes, blaming the culture when tragedies like this occur is both valid and necessary. These are opportunities to address the very subversive and dangerous ways in which our culture still very much condones sexism and violence against women.

[Chaldanya]

How's this: I will make a mental note that for you, "Feminism 101" means "my personal take on feminism" and not, say, "Basic Principles of Feminism on which All Feminists Agree."

By the way, I haven't used the + or - feature on this thread, so that's not me. Just sayin'

Fair enough, but I say this again, it's not like I linked to some course materials from a women's study class at a redbrick university. I linked to ONE feminist blog (of which there are thousands) on the internet.

Also, you can use the little + or - feature to your heart's content for all of me.

What potsherds said cause she had the patience to spell it out...

N

[Stego]

Western culture very assuredly permits, condones, and encourages violence against women.

While this is certainly true in many men's attitudes, it is also anathema to just as many men in Western culture, IMO.

The reason people say things like "I'm for equality but not something crazy like feminism" is that statements like this have no limitations, and as such feel like universal reprimands. And not every man would raise his hand to a woman, even in self-defense.

[potsherds]

While this is certainly true in many men's attitudes, it is also anathema to just as many men in Western culture, IMO.

The reason people say things like "I'm for equality but not something crazy like feminism" is that statements like this have no limitations, and as such feel like universal reprimands. And not every man would raise his hand to a woman, even in self-defense.

What point are you making exactly? That I've hurt your feelings because I didn't put some sort of disclaimer on what I said that: I'm of course not blaming each and every person in the western culture, or that I'm certainly not blaming you, Stego, in particular. Gee. I'm so (not) sorry you're offended. In fact, I'm hardly surprised. You bring down any conversation on feminism that you participate in, in my opinion.

The fact that not every man is physically violent towards women makes no point at all, btw. That's not at all or exclusively what I was referring to.

[Guest Raidne]

Here's the thing - I just don't get it. Should we start educational programs to warn people about the dangers of being a female engineering student and teach them how to prepare? Should we run sessions for perpetrators of violence against women educating them of how it's wrong to kill women for studying the sciences? Is there a population that is at risk for perpretating that crime, or a population at risk for being a victim of that crime?

Or would, that, perhaps, be a complete waste of resources that could otherwise be spent educating the public on sexual harassment, rape, domestic violence, inequality in the math and sciences, and any other issue that regularly affects the everyday lives of women, instead of trying to prevent the incidence of freakish mass shootings by psychopaths? Let's not give Lepine more credit that he deserves - he's not even a wire on the birdcage.

Furthermore, I may have missed it, but I don't think anyone here has argued against the idea that Western culture sexualizes violence toward women. The question, however is this: does this incident have even the slightest thing to do with the sexualization of violence against women? Is there any evidence whatsoever that Lepine was sexually motivated? Was the ensuing news coverage of the event eroticized, and I missed that information? For me, this is an event best memorialized by memorializing - by reflecting on the pointless loss of life of these talented female students. Talking about the sexualization of violence against women, while a worthy subject, doesn't have anything to do with their murder, and obscures the actual event.

Which, by the way, is not coincidentally what has gone on for this entire thread.

[Bellis]

It's helpful to frame it from the perspective of whether pop culture and cultural norms provide a safe environment for women, rather than framing it as whether the average individual man is menacing.

Also:

feminism is not a zero sum game.

ETA: I'm not disagreeing at all with Raidne btw, just cross-posting.

[potsherds]

<snip>

Furthermore, I may have missed it, but I don't think anyone here has argued against the idea that Western culture sexualizes violence toward women. The question, however is this: does this incident have even the slightest thing to do with the sexualization of violence against women? Is there any evidence whatsoever that Lepine was sexually motivated? Was the ensuing news coverage of the event eroticized, and I missed that information? For me, this is an event best memorialized by memorializing - by reflecting on the pointless loss of life of these talented female students. Talking about the sexualization of violence against women, while a worthy subject, doesn't have anything to do with their murder, and obscures the actual event.

Which, by the way, is not coincidentally what has gone on for this entire thread.

I think that separating sexual violence against women and violence against women is a mistake. Permissive cultural norms exist for both the category and the subset above.

[Guest Raidne]

On that particular tangent, Stego, I have to agree that to say Western culture promotes violence against women is to say that the conglomeration of men and women in the society, their ideas, entertainment, interactions, art, etc. promotes violence against women. For instance, plenty of female film executives promote and sexualize violence against women. And I'm sure the designers of Grand Theft Auto are not all men.

[potsherds]

On that particular tangent, Stego, I have to agree that to say Western culture promotes violence against women is to say that the conglomeration of men and women in the society, their ideas, entertainment, interactions, art, etc. promotes violence against women. For instance, plenty of female film executives promote and sexualize violence against women. And I'm sure the designers of Grand Theft Auto are not all men.

Yep.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Raidne,

I thought GTA promoted violence against everyone, not just women? I say this with the cavete that I've never played this game or seen this game played.

[Yagathai]

What point are you making exactly? That I've hurt your feelings because I didn't put some sort of disclaimer on what I said that: I'm of course not blaming each and every person in the western culture, or that I'm certainly not blaming you, Stego, in particular. Gee. I'm so (not) sorry you're offended. In fact, I'm hardly surprised. You bring down any conversation on feminism that you participate in, in my opinion.

The fact that not every man is physically violent towards women makes no point at all, btw. That's not at all or exclusively what I was referring to.

You clothe yourself in the mantle of outraged victimhood like a beggar might drape herself in the purple of emperors, you make offensive and highly general statements that have only tangential bearing on the topic at hand, and then when someone calls you on it you descend to personal insults and facile straw men rather than addressing the issues raised on their merits.

If you're looking for an example of why the young women in Raidne's classes are reluctant to call themselves feminists, look no further than the end of your own nose, assuming you're not too shortsighted to see even that far.

[tzanth]

Raidne,

I thought GTA promoted violence against everyone, not just women? I say this with the cavete that I've never played this game or seen this game played.

One could say that. And then one could also say that it promotes a stereotype in which nearly all women are seen as sexualized objects. There are some very violent and sexist overtones in all the GTA games; thats not to say they are inherently bad. Just like there are plenty of amazing, powerful movies that include sexist themes.

Personally I don't think Pamplemousse was being very extreme in suggesting people to refer to "feminism 101." There have been some pretty outlandish things said in this thread.

[Stego]

I'm of course not blaming each and every person in the western culture

People think you are. I think you are.

What's my point, you ask? Every time you call yourself a feminist, you are leaving half of the world out. It's divisive in the same way that segregation was. You have every opportunity to be a Humanist. Which, you know, supports every single damn fucking thing feminism purports to, just without the leaving icky boys out.