Most used fantasy cliches?

[Maithanet]

I can only hope the committee is more sympathetic to its case on future ballots.

Well, ever since that one Dragonlance tunnel started doping, it really ruined it for everyone, since no one knows if the tunnels are legitimate or not.

I agree on The Duel, although that appears outside of fantasy as well. I don't know about historical accuracy of it, but generally the likelihood of two notable figures squaring off in a duel strikes me as overly convenient. Particularly when these duels occur in a larger battle, it sounds very difficult to coordinate.

Oh, and welcome to the board!

[Shryke]

Here's one that I don't think has come up...

The ultimate source of evil is always male. Even in series with female villains, the super-baddie is always male. The Dark One, Sauron, Morgoth, the Crippled God, maybe the Great Other?

The Dark One has no sex or gender.

I'm not sure if Sauron does either. Or The Great Other.

I agree on The Duel, although that appears outside of fantasy as well. I don't know about historical accuracy of it, but generally the likelihood of two notable figures squaring off in a duel strikes me as overly convenient. Particularly when these duels occur in a larger battle, it sounds very difficult to coordinate.

Duels in the middle of a battle? Don't know how common that was.

Just plain Duels? Very common.

[fionwe1987]

The Dark One has no sex or gender.

Then why isn't he referred to as the Great Lady of the Dark? Why does Moghedien call him Great Lord?

I'm not sure if Sauron does either. Or The Great Other.

The Great Other is a matter of doubt, true. Sauron is definitely male. JRRT made it clear that gender is not optional for the Ainu.

[Shryke]

Then why isn't he referred to as the Great Lady of the Dark? Why does Moghedien call him Great Lord?

Because the book is in English, where there is very very few options for ways to refer to stuff in a genderless fashion.

The Dark One has no sex or gender. Great Lady of the Dark implies it is female, which is also wrong.

[fionwe1987]

Because the book is in English, where there is very very few options for ways to refer to stuff in a genderless fashion.

The Dark One has no sex or gender. Great Lady of the Dark implies it is female, which is also wrong.

What's your proof for this? The DO is always referred to as "he". We hear talk about "his" power. Neither Rand and the TR kids nor Moiraine, Thom and Lan show any surprise when Fain tells them the DO appeared as a Man with flaming eyes.

There is overwhelming proof that the DO is seen as male.

[Black Wizard]

The Dark One has no sex or gender.

I'm not sure if Sauron does either. Or The Great Other.

Sauron was one of the Maiar, as were Gandalf and Saruman. The latter took the form of men while on Middle-Earth so there's no reason why Sauron doesn't have a gender. Plus I'm pretty sure Sauron was referred to as 'he' rather than 'it'.

[Shryke]

What's your proof for this? The DO is always referred to as "he". We hear talk about "his" power. Neither Rand and the TR kids nor Moiraine, Thom and Lan show any surprise when Fain tells them the DO appeared as a Man with flaming eyes.

There is overwhelming proof that the DO is seen as male.

Um ... Fain saw Ba'alzamon. Who we all know WAS a guy. Just not the Dark One.

Other then that, you are still running straight into the whole English Language thing.

There is NO proof that the Dark One even has a gender and it having a gender frankly makes no sense.

[Alexia]

There is NO proof that the Dark One even has a gender and it having a gender frankly makes no sense.

The constant use of male pronouns to refer to the Dark One seems like proof. Your post shows a perfectly adequate genderless pronoun in English but "it" is never used in reference to the Dark One, "he" is.

[Shryke]

The constant use of male pronouns to refer to the Dark One seems like proof. Your post shows a perfectly adequate genderless pronoun in English but "it" is never used in reference to the Dark One, "he" is.

The constant use of male pronouns is .. you know, the English language. "It" it generally not used in these situations because it implies an object rather then a person. And when you've got a non-human genderless being of virtually infinite power, there's really no applicable term so you go with whatever works or first comes to mind.

Now explain to me why a formless force of unbelievable power from outside creation has a gender.

[Black Wizard]

Exaplain to me why ships are feminine and the Germans consider a pencil sharpener to be feminine.

[Alexia]

But Shryke,

And when you've got a non-human genderless being of virtually infinite power, there's really no applicable term so you go with whatever works or first comes to mind.

If you have a "non-human genderless being,"

The constant use of male pronouns is .. you know, the English language. "It" it generally not used in these situations because it implies an object rather then a person.

Then why is it necessary to imply a person? I've heard "it" used frequently in reference to animals so why not in reference to a "non-human genderless being?"

Now explain to me why a formless force of unbelievable power from outside creation has a gender.

You'd have to direct that question to the author, who chose gendered pronouns to refer to his "formless force of unbelievable power."

[Shryke]

Exaplain to me why ships are feminine and the Germans consider a pencil sharpener to be feminine.

Or why in French a pen is masculin. Ok, sorry, that ones just a REALLY old penis joke.

Stupid languages with male and female nouns.

[fionwe1987]

Um ... Fain saw Ba'alzamon. Who we all know WAS a guy. Just not the Dark One.

We know that. Moiraine and co. did not, yet had no problem. They didn't go, "Ah! So he IS a guy!".

If the DO is indeed genderless, then he'd have been referred to as Great Lady. Because we've seen that in the WoT world, unlike with English, the female pronoun is used many times when referring to the general person, to reflect the ascendancy of women in society.

It may be that the DO doesn't actually have a gender but projects a male voice and a male avatar (Shaidar Haran) for his own reasons, but that is just conjecture. As far as the books go, he is definitely male.

Your argument that this is just a quirk of the English language doesn't hold. He's called Father of Lies and Father of Storms. Surely, parent would be used if the DO were indeed genderless?

Other then that, you are still running straight into the whole English Language thing.

No I'm not.

There is NO proof that the Dark One even has a gender and it having a gender frankly makes no sense.

It may make no sense to you, but that is how the books present it.

[Shryke]

If you have a "non-human genderless being,"Then why is it necessary to imply a person? I've heard "it" used frequently in reference to animals so why not in reference to a "non-human genderless being?"

Because an animal is an animal. Non-sentient. The Dark One is most definitely sentient. He gets a leg up. Languages are un-PC like that.

The Dark One is a vast unimaginable force that people in the books (and the reader) anthropomorphize. And when no gender is given or inferable, the default is male.

You'd have to direct that question to the author, who chose gendered pronouns to refer to his "formless force of unbelievable power."

I've already explained why. You seem to have a beef with the Modern English language. Good luck with that.

Your argument that this is just a quirk of the English language doesn't hold. He's called Father of Lies and Father of Storms. Surely, parent would be used if the DO were indeed genderless?

Parent of Lies sounds REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY stupid. It's a nickname, people go for catchy.

[fionwe1987]

Here's a list of the names of the DO that offer definite proof that he is male, or seen as such by everyone in the books:

• Father of Lies
• Lord of the Grave
• Shepherd of the Night
• Shadowman
• Father of Storms
• Caisen Hob/Old Hob

The last is not a pronoun. Unless you think Caisen Hob is a female name, the debate is closed.

[Alexia]

Because an animal is an animal. Non-sentient. The Dark One is most definitely sentient. He gets a leg up. Languages are un-PC like that.

And animals are gendered, surely more deserving of male/female pronouns than a genderless non-human being.

Do you have any links or quotes wherein the author/narrative indicates that the Dark One is genderless?

[Shryke]

Here's a list of the names of the DO that offer definite proof that he is male, or seen as such by everyone in the books:

• Father of Lies
• Lord of the Grave
• Shepherd of the Night
• Shadowman
• Father of Storms
• Caisen Hob/Old Hob

The last is not a pronoun. Unless you think Caisen Hob is a female name, the debate is closed.

The only debate that's closed here is over your inability to understand that titles like that are often given to be catchy and memorable, not accurate.

Male titles have a more stern and threatening feel to them. It's cultural language cues.

On top of that, again, this is the English Language. "Lady of the Grave" implies female gendered. "Lord of the Grave" implies male but, unlike Lady, can also be genderless depending on the situation.

The Dark One would be one of those situations.

And animals are gendered, surely more deserving of male/female pronouns than a genderless non-human being.

And if the gender is known, it's used. But animals can easily be referred to as "It", whereas that would be extremely insulting in reference to a person.

Do you have any links or quotes wherein the author/narrative indicates that the Dark One is genderless?

Do you have any links to prove it male or, really, any reason for it to be?

Your entire argument is based on titles and forms of reference from a language that doesn't have almost any non-gendered forms of address and that defaults to male when gender is in question.

[fionwe1987]

Parent of Lies sounds REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY stupid. It's a nickname, people go for catchy.

Then they'd have gone for Mother of Lies. As said, in many instances, the general pronoun used is feminine, not masculine as in our world.

[Shryke]

Then they'd have gone for Mother of Lies. As said, in many instances, the general pronoun used is feminine, not masculine as in our world.

Also sounds dumb.

While the world of WOT may be that way in some instances, the world of both the writer and the reader is not. It is, in fact, the opposite.

[fionwe1987]

The only debate that's closed here is over your inability to understand that titles like that are often given to be catchy and memorable, not accurate.

Bah! Then different cultures would interchangeably give male and female sounding names. Your argument has no logic.

Male titles have a more stern and threatening feel to them. It's cultural language cues.

Not in the WoT world. With three thousand years of female Aes Sedai superiority, with these women seen as the foremost power of the land, female titles are more likely to sound more stern and threatening.

For example, the top suite in WoT cards is the Amyrlin, reflecting the social hierarchy where a woman is top dog.

The culture of WoT supports a female gender for this powerful being, but we see no such thing.

On top of that, again, this is the English Language. "Lady of the Grave" implies female gendered. "Lord of the Grave" implies male but, unlike Lady, can also be genderless depending on the situation.

And the same can be said of the word father, and of actual male names too?