Most used fantasy cliches?

[Shryke]

2. An assumption that no matter wher you are, travelling north will ensure that the weather gets colder. This is only true of Northern Hemisphere continents in OUR world, why should every other world be the same?

It's true for half of any planet (baring really freaky geography or something).

And most settings take place in the Northern Hemisphere because ... well, why not?

[Errant Bard]

2. An assumption that no matter wher you are, travelling north will ensure that the weather gets colder. This is only true of Northern Hemisphere continents in OUR world, why should every other world be the same?

Because authors need to keep some verisimilitude, and thus do not engage in altering people's expectation of physics, so most often you get round worlds revolving around a sun, rotating on themselves in roughly 24 hours, with poles less exposed to sun rays and thus colder -within Earth temperature range- meaning snow and ice because the atmosphere is the same as Earth's too. Also, not only most of the readership lives in the northern hemisphere, thus making north=cold a matter of fact, but most Fantasy authors try to evoke European middle ages where north=cold and they don't need to screw up such background details just because, that would only lessen the strength of the evocation.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

2. An assumption that no matter wher you are, travelling north will ensure that the weather gets colder. This is only true of Northern Hemisphere continents in OUR world, why should every other world be the same?

Dragonlance books are mostly set on the southern hemisphere. So are Guy Gavriel Kay's novels set in Al-Rassan/Sarantium world, IIRC. Also many Malazan books - but in this case geography is truly screwed, so it doesn't matter much.

[Rakka]

Why would it lessen the strength of the evocation to have the events take place in the southern hemisphere? Also, WHY must 99% of fantasy be medieval Europe with magic? I for one wouldn't mind seeing something a bit different. Liam Hearn would be interesting if her books weren't so boring and the protagonist such a Stu, but I can definately throw my mind into fantasy Japan just as well as fantasy Europe. In fact fantasy Europe is generally more off-putting to me since I have some background knowledge of the period and screwing things up (see the language and armour gripe) is way more damaging to suspension of disbelief than having the setting be something else entirely.

Which brings to mind another point... weapons were generally developed the counter the armour used in the day, and for the likeliest scenarios for when you'd need to fight. If gladius, broadsword and rapier are all "on screen" in the same cultural setting in the same time you better have damn good reason.

And talking about geography... north being on top is just a convention that not all cultures follow. Continuing about maps, why do so many hero's quest fantasies insist on hitting everything seen on the map?

[Liffguard]

I don't think the "north" thing is really an issue. North and south are just naming conventions and our idea of north as "on top" is completely arbitrary. The globe could be "upside down" or on its "side" and it wouldn't make any real difference. It doesn't matter what hemisphere the story takes place in. When the characters go north and it gets colder I just assume "north" is towards the nearest pole.

[kungtotte]

Why would it lessen the strength of the evocation to have the events take place in the southern hemisphere?

You've got the order of events backwards. Because it is set in medieval Europe, the evocation is weakened if you change the truism that north=cold.

Now, I am all for books set elsewhere, as long as they apply the same logic for keeping the verisimilitudes for that setting. There's simply no reason to reinvent the entire planet when you're writing fantasy, because it makes it harder for the readers to connect with your world.

That's why water is wet, the sky is blue, trees are green, they have concepts equivalent to year, month, weeks, days, hours and minutes and so on and so forth.

[Black Wizard]

2. An assumption that no matter wher you are, travelling north will ensure that the weather gets colder. This is only true of Northern Hemisphere continents in OUR world, why should every other world be the same?

Physics probably. I know that Fantasy doesn't usually obey the laws of Physics but I assume that the Arctic and Antarctic areas of any planet are the coldest.

[Rakka]

But most fantasy isn't set in medieval Europe, Earth, but some more or less hackneyed approximate of it. When there's the whole multitude of possible worlds to have as the setting, why should the opportunities be limited by lazy thinking and not bothering to consider the other options? After all, it's fantasy. As in imagination. Earthsea is invented. The world in Farseer books is invented. The world in ASOIAF is invented. Probably at least 95% of the books discussed in this forum are not situated in Earth or alternative Earth. Barring bad writing I'd bet that most people can connect to them just fine.

Water is wet due to its chemical properties which, btw, make life possible here on Earth. Sky is blue because air is colourless and the refraction of the sun's rays makes it seem blue. Trees are (mostly) green because of chlorophyll happened to be advantageous in some point of plant evolution. If you're questioning the presence of these in fantasy it would make much more sense to question the presence of humans. But that can be ignored, because it's fantasy, and fantasy doesn't need an explanation for non-human species, or humans existing in a planet different than Earth.

Also, there is no reason to have minutes in a world that doesn't have clocks more developed than the sundial and hourglass. Time an egg and sing fifteen verses of "where has all the custard gone". Time the boiling of must for mead and walk half a mile and back again.

[kungtotte]

Nobody is arguing with you on the lack of variety in settings, we are arguing with you regarding the presentation of the settings.

If you have a medieval Europe type world (as many works of fantasy do), you really should make north=cold and some other basic things true in order to sell the setting.

If you have a world that is rather unlike medieval Europe (like Earthsea, or the broken worlds in The Death Gate Cycle), you really should do what makes sense for those settings. If it's unlike anything found on Earth, as in the Death Gate Cycle, give it logical properties consistent with the make-up of that world. If it's similar to something found on Earth, give it Earth-like properties found in that region.

OK, to sum it up, what we are saying is that the cliché is that most fantasy is set in medieval Europe look-alikes. It is not a cliché to make your medieval Europe look-alike look like Europe.

[WhiteHaven]

One more cliche I really hate.

In the end the good guys win, somehow.

Maybe that is not the case in the "gritty" section of this genre. However, especially in the older books, the good guys win. Due to a Deus Ex Machina.

[MattL86]

OK, to sum it up, what we are saying is that the cliché is that most fantasy is set in medieval Europe look-alikes. It is not a cliché to make your medieval Europe look-alike look like Europe.

Fair point. It works well for me in worlds very heavily influenced by European history, like ASOIF. But some series like say WOT are heavily influenced by eastern themes, enough so that I don't see it necessary to keep all calendars, geography, weather, etc as a direct Euro ripoff.

[Ouroboros]

Except WOT doesn't keep the same calendar. It has ten days in a week for a start and the geography is apparently based off west africa as opposed to Europe.

[Tuoni]

On the north/south debate: If we consider that the language of the fantasy world in question is not English, then terms like north and south can be assumed to have been “translated” by the author. Since north and south are completely arbitrary, the author and the reader cannot know (it cannot even be relevant) which direction is meant by the native terms “north” and “south”. The author has just chosen to “translate” the direction term so that it seems the action is happening on the northern hemisphere. Since there are is no real difference between north and south, you can just imagine the term for “north” meaning south if you want.

Hmm, I’m not sure if that was very clearly explained.

[Nerdanel]

On the north/south debate: If we consider that the language of the fantasy world in question is not English, then terms like north and south can be assumed to have been “translated” by the author. Since north and south are completely arbitrary, the author and the reader cannot know (it cannot even be relevant) which direction is meant by the native terms “north” and “south”. The author has just chosen to “translate” the direction term so that it seems the action is happening on the northern hemisphere. Since there are is no real difference between north and south, you can just imagine the term for “north” meaning south if you want.

Hmm, I’m not sure if that was very clearly explained.

You know that has happened if the book mentions the sun rising in the west or setting in the east, or if you can figure out from the geographical mentions that if "up" is north on the map, west must be "right" and east "left", as opposed to the normal scheme of thihngs.

[MinDonner]

Yes, what Nerdanel said. The definition of "east" is pretty much "where the sun rises", so it would annoy me to see an author trying to be clever by mucking about with that. The shorthand of Frozen Barbarian North/Hot Steamy South/Exotic Cultured East (etc) can be pretty annoying though, unless the world is specifically based on Europe.

[Tuoni]

You know that has happened if the book mentions the sun rising in the west or setting in the east, or if you can figure out from the geographical mentions that if "up" is north on the map, west must be "right" and east "left", as opposed to the normal scheme of thihngs.

Very good point, assuming “east” is indeed the direction of the rising sun does clear things up. However, I think north = very cold is a pervasive image from a mythological perspective, not only for Europeans but for almost everyone on our planet except maybe Tierra del Fuegians. I agree with Min that the Eurocentric habit of putting “the other culture” to the east and ocean to the west of the heroes place of origin is annoying.

[Black Wizard]

I suppose that most fantasy authors come from Europe and North America so it's hardly surprising that the North is the frozen wasteland. Mabye some Australians and New Zealanders could so something different and change it around?

[False Alarm]

some friends and i have an e-mail list where we've discussed various fantasy devices that belong in our Fantasy Cliches Hall of Fame. many inductees--eg, The Prophecy, The Farm Boy Who's Actually a Prince, Elves-by-Another-Name--have been highlighted in this thread. one inductee that's been mentioned but deserves a little more attention:

Ritual Single Combat, or, The Duel

(i actually love that cliche but it still pops up an awful lot.)

another nominee we've discussed but not yet granted induction:

The Secret Tunnel Network Beneath the Palace

the case i made when proposing STNBP for induction:

"off the top of my head this veteran fan favorite appears in song of ice and fire, memory-sorrow-thorn, the farseeker and tawny man trilogies, and various dragonlance and FR novels. i think we can safely infer STNBP's presence in a legion of other fantasy novels. note that this device describes only the tunnel network so familiar to us beneath (also inside the walls of) palaces, castles, and fortresses of royal or noble characters in fantasy novels. STNBP should not be confused with any old subterranean tunnel network, which i believe is too broad an element to qualify for induction, nor should it be confused with the Sewers Beneath a Fantasy City, which has an impressive track record in its own right and may someday find itself in the distinguished company of the other fantasy devices upon which we've accorded this lofty honor."

alas, the committee felt STNBP was too strongly grounded in historical reality to be considered a fantasy cliche, as many actual castles had secret tunnels and such associated with them. i still believe STNBP has a strong case for the Hall: i find it hard to believe that many castles' tunnel networks were anywhere near as elaborate as those commonly found in fantasy novels. i can only hope the committee is more sympathetic to its case on future ballots.

[fionwe1987]

Here's one that I don't think has come up...

The ultimate source of evil is always male. Even in series with female villains, the super-baddie is always male. The Dark One, Sauron, Morgoth, the Crippled God, maybe the Great Other?

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

The ultimate source of evil is always male.

Takhisis. (I am sure there are others as well, but it is the only one which comes immediately to mind.)