Most used fantasy cliches?

[fionwe1987]

Also sounds dumb.

While the world of WOT may be that way in some instances, the world of both the writer and the reader is not. It is, in fact, the opposite.

That hasn't stopped RJ. In our world, a random person will be signified as a he. The same is not the case in WoT.

Really, your argument is getting thinner by the minute.

[Shryke]

Your argument is still solely based on the stupid supposition that Gendered Forms of Address in English are not, essentially, male-centric. This is so wrong, it's dumb. When no gender is known and "it" doesn't apply, you default to male.

Beyond that, the Dark One having either Sex or Gender doesn't make sense. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard about these books. Your argument relies on an assumption that is prima facia stupid.

The sex of the DO is simple a nonsensical question. as he lacks physical form or substance and exists outside creation. Gender is a cultural and linguistic construct which also makes absolutely no sense when applied to a formless being from outside creation who has no one with which to have a culture. At best, he's a culture of 1, in which case gender makes even less sense.

Basically, you have a very weak language based argument that flies in the face of everything we know about The Dark One.

The Dark One is genderless. Male forms of address are used because the book is in English.

[Maithanet]

Here's a list of the names of the DO that offer definite proof that he is male, or seen as such by everyone in the books:

• Father of Lies
• Lord of the Grave
• Shepherd of the Night
• Shadowman
• Father of Storms
• Caisen Hob/Old Hob

The last is not a pronoun. Unless you think Caisen Hob is a female name, the debate is closed.

Shepherd is not a gendered word.

While shepherdess is also a word according to some dictionaries, its use has fallen out of favor, and shepherd is now considered gender neutral. similar to actor being an acceptable word for a woman, but I'd say further along in the process since until I searched it I have never heard the word shepherdess.

I find the argument that people have added a gendered term to a nongendered being quite plausible. The Dark One being male or female makes little sense.

[Shryke]

On top of that, given the culture of WOT, making the Big Evil male makes perfect sense.

What Channelers are bad and insane and evil? Male.

The most hated man of the last 3000 years? Male.

The people who broke the world? Male.

There's a pattern there that I'm sure would be reflected in the cultures of the WOT world.

[King of the Silver Isles]

Doesn't the BWWB say that though the Dark One lacks gender (as Shryke says, He is outside creation and is formless), yet is labled a male? The Dark One being being an actual gender makes no sense, as He completely lacks form. Gender is determind mostly by sex organs (which I don't need to name here), both of which He is lacking. He is identified as a He likely because He has male characteristics.

It is silly to think Shai'tan is a literal male. He is a spirit, a cosmic entity beyond all physical laws and boundaries, who is also lacking any bodyparts that could label Him as either male or female. His status as male is a mortal interperitation, and should be seen as such.

[King of the Silver Isles]

On top of that, given the culture of WOT, making the Big Evil male makes perfect sense.

What Channelers are bad and insane and evil? Male.

The most hated man of the last 3000 years? Male.

The people who broke the world? Male.

There's a pattern there that I'm sure would be reflected in the cultures of the WOT world.

I'm sorry, but I'd have to disagree that that is why the Dark One is seen as male. The Dark One is seen as male not because of things that happend post-War of the Shadow. He was concieved as male prior as well.

Also, many evils (throughout religions and novels) are made male because of "agressive nature" or some other characteristic that people associate with males. The females (in most of the cases I've seen) are seen as less agressive, though, I will admit, not less deadly.

[Shryke]

I'm sorry, but I'd have to disagree that that is why the Dark One is seen as male. The Dark One is seen as male not because of things that happend post-War of the Shadow. He was concieved as male prior as well.

Also, many evils (throughout religions and novels) are made male because of "agressive nature" or some other characteristic that people associate with males. The females (in most of the cases I've seen) are seen as less agressive, though, I will admit, not less deadly.

I don't think it's DIRECTLY because of that, but it's another cultural factor along with what you mention.

[fionwe1987]

Shryke:

Turns out I was wrong. RJ used "it" to describe the DO in some interviews. So that's that.

[Xalinor]

Breaking out into massive WoT discussions in non-related threads.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The ultimate source of evil is always male. Even in series with female villains, the super-baddie is always male. The Dark One, Sauron, Morgoth, the Crippled God, maybe the Great Other?

There's the White Witch in Lewis' Narnia.

Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn by Tad Williams has a female as part of the Big Evil Duo (Utuk'ku the Norn Queen, who is co-equal partner in crime with Ineluki the Storm King).

[Arthmail]

I find the notion of an incorporeal bad guy, without form, living outside the known world, but still possessing the desires and the drive of an evil entity of human or human like stature, a stupid one. Perhaps wanton destruction could be its goal, but to try and possess things such as lands and kingdoms and people makes little sense, given that from what i know of the Dark One (which isnt much), he/she/it has never had a physical presence. His wants and desires would be so alien to ours.

Silly idea.

[Shryke]

I find the notion of an incorporeal bad guy, without form, living outside the known world, but still possessing the desires and the drive of an evil entity of human or human like stature, a stupid one. Perhaps wanton destruction could be its goal, but to try and possess things such as lands and kingdoms and people makes little sense, given that from what i know of the Dark One (which isnt much), he/she/it has never had a physical presence. His wants and desires would be so alien to ours.

Silly idea.

Um ... The Dark One DOESN'T want lands or kingdoms or people or any of that.

Any of his followers that think that's what they will get are delusional (and TGS spells this out explicitly).

The Dark One's sole goal is to destroy creation. Possibly in order to remake it according to HIS vision, but hell, maybe not even that.

[Stilgar]

The ultimate source of evil is always male. Even in series with female villains, the super-baddie is always male. The Dark One, Sauron, Morgoth, the Crippled God, maybe the Great Other?

I haven't read the whole series, but in the first "Black Company" trilogy, the ultimate villain is female.

[kungtotte]

She took over after she and twelve of her closest friends overthrew her hubby, though, who was the real ultimate evil :)

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Yeah, but as I recall the next ultimate evils are also female.

[Arthmail]

Um ... The Dark One DOESN'T want lands or kingdoms or people or any of that.

Any of his followers that think that's what they will get are delusional (and TGS spells this out explicitly).

The Dark One's sole goal is to destroy creation. Possibly in order to remake it according to HIS vision, but hell, maybe not even that.

TGS?

[Durckad]

TGS?

The Gathering Storm I presume.

[Morrigan]

A few that annoy me:

2. An assumption that no matter wher you are, travelling north will ensure that the weather gets colder. This is only true of Northern Hemisphere continents in OUR world, why should every other world be the same?

You know what else annoys me? The sun always sets in the West and rises in the East. What's up with that? And then they often use miles and leagues, but never kilometres. What's up with that? And there's (almost) always just one moon (which always "rises" as soon as night falls -- which isn't even true of our world), and the world's sun is an average-sized, yellow star. Why can't it be a giant red? :rolleyes:

...Or maybe, just maybe, you're being silly.

. Gender is determind mostly by sex organs (which I don't need to name here),

Nope. Sex is determined by sex organs. Gender is determined often by sex, but also personal identity. That's why we have transgendered people. Born with male sex organs and with the Y chromosome, but who identify as female and try to become women as much as they can possibly be.

So, clearly the Dark One has no sex. It's not a stretch, though, to think of "it" as "male". I agree that the Dark One is probably really genderless and that it's only the silly humans who ascribe male characteristics and titles to him, but we don't actually know that either.

[Alexia]

And there's (almost) always just one moon (which always "rises" as soon as night falls -- which isn't even true of our world), and the world's sun is an average-sized, yellow star. Why can't it be a giant red? :rolleyes:

I believe you're thinking of Darkover. :lol:

[Black Wizard]

Maps.

Maps which are geographically implausible with ridiculous features such as rivers running parallel to a mountain range in the north and further south there is an other mountain range parallel to it but on the opposite bank. Also in the south a third mountain range is perpindicular to the river. The southerly mountain range parallel to the river has two other mountain ranges perpindicular to it at it's northern and southern extremities.