Most used fantasy cliches?

[fionwe1987]

* Orcs and Elves as shorthand for Evil and Good race, only humans are allowed to have characteristics not bound to their genetic makeup.

* Trying to subvert this by switching the races and alignments. Worked OK for Pratchett, but...

* Faux Olde English by characters who are in medieval society. If you're going to use a particular idiom, bloody well learn how it works first! "Thou" is NOT the form of address used to thy superiors.

* That a year is always 12 months, moon is 28 days divided to 4 7-day weeks, and a day is 24 hours.

* Getting armour wrong. Not even getting there...

* Assuming that because something was thus-and-thus in popular culture's presentation of the medieval period a) it's accurate and B) that your world must follow the same rules.

* Not thinking things through with the setting. Uber-powerful magicians? Why aren't they ruling the world yet? More importantly, why aren't they making fat money by acting as postal/transportation/wrecking/fixing service?

* Unbelievable logistics.

Amazingly, WoT doesn't have any of these issues (I think?).

[wolverine]

I have to say, I don't entirely agree. I love Martin and his battle scenes are great (and more realistic than a lot of what else I've read) but Tyrion would have been toast ten times over by now in RL.

A particular moment that stands out for me is in AGOT when Tyrion stood up underneath a knight's rearing horse and jammed the spike in his helm into the horse's belly. By authorial fiat, he managed to survive the horse falling on him AND defeated the knight sitting on the horse. ;)

Totally agree with this statement. The fact that Tyrion seems to be an above average fighter is a bit ridiculous. Tyrion is not just a little person, but by all descriptions a particularly short immobile one.

Also thought it was strange that an intelligent agile fighter like Oberyn would get caught by a dying man lying prone on the ground.

[The Evil Hat]

Well, Oberyn was hardly calm at the time, was he? Toying with Gregor, even in a downed state, isn't exactly the path taken by a man not consumed by vengeance. Besides which, he was always shown as quite arrogant. By the time that Gregor was down, he was probably pretty damn sure that he couldn't lose.

[wolverine]

I generally agree with you, but since when did Abercrombie get limited villains? Eaters are about as over the top as a villain can get.

Fenris the Feared was not exactly a pushover either.

[Black Wizard]

I don't think the "Good wins because Evil is stupid" cliche is limited to fantasy... although it's being sadly overused in the genre. Comes with the territory of having to have something Big and Scary for the protagonists to beat to save the world as they know it.

James Bond springs to mind.

"I could kill you Bond, but I'm going to let my incompetent minions do that for me."

[Maithanet]

I generally agree with you, but since when did Abercrombie get limited villains? Eaters are about as over the top as a villain can get.

Well, the Eaters are quite powerful physically, but not really in a geopolitical sense.

[wolverine]

Well, Oberyn was hardly calm at the time, was he? Toying with Gregor, even in a downed state, isn't exactly the path taken by a man not consumed by vengeance. Besides which, he was always shown as quite arrogant. By the time that Gregor was down, he was probably pretty damn sure that he couldn't lose.

Maybe I more so meant that Gregor still had the strength to crush his skull while his life is bleeding out of him. It probably just upset me because I wanted to see him killed so bad.

Say one thing about Martin, say he makes compelling characters.

[Alexia]

Also thought it was strange that an intelligent agile fighter like Oberyn would get caught by a dying man lying prone on the ground.

Eh, that was the least of it. The big question is how the hell does Gregor survive so long with a SPEAR impaling him and pinning him to the ground! :stunned:

I've pretty much chalked anything to do with Gregor up to him being, well, GREGOR and suspended my disbelief so that I can be fully entertained by him.

[The Evil Hat]

Well, the Eaters are quite powerful physically, but not really in a geopolitical sense.

Khalul (unsure if that's the proper spelling) ruled an empire, and Bayaz might as well have. Both of them are about as maxed out on every meter as it's possible to get.

[Rakka]

Eh, that was the least of it. The big question is how the hell does Gregor survive so long with a SPEAR impaling him and pinning him to the ground! :stunned:

Well, gut wounds are notorious for being slowly lethal. It may take days to die from one, even one that is not poisoned, if the major arteries aren't severed. Then you'll die from massive infection and slow internal bleeding and all that fun stuff. But they don't kill instantly, and in the battle situation it's entirely possible that the adrenalin kept him from even noticing it much. There are lots of recorded cases of people simply not feeling pain until the dangerous situation was over, because it's a lot more viable survival strategy from evolutional standpoint than the usual "doubling over in pain". Plus the shaft of the spear in the wound would help to squeeze the cut arteries shut even if they were damaged.

[Maithanet]

Khalul (unsure if that's the proper spelling) ruled an empire, and Bayaz might as well have. Both of them are about as maxed out on every meter as it's possible to get.

I agree they were both very powerful, but I would hardly describe them as omnipotent. Bayaz almost died in book 2.

And my point was not so much that you shouldn't have powerful people, but that they should have meaningful limitations, and their actions should be dictated by these limitations. At no point could I come up with a plan that would have allowed either of them to achieve their aims far more easily than what they were already doing. It's like the Mary/Gary Sue rule in reverse.

Edit: Spoiler tags.

[williamjm]

Amazingly, WoT doesn't have any of these issues (I think?).

Trollocs seem to be Jordan's equivalent of orcs. I guess, the Ogier would be the good non-human race, although they're not particularly cliched.

[Alexia]

Well, gut wounds are notorious for being slowly lethal. It may take days to die from one, even one that is not poisoned, if the major arteries aren't severed. Then you'll die from massive infection and slow internal bleeding and all that fun stuff. But they don't kill instantly, and in the battle situation it's entirely possible that the adrenalin kept him from even noticing it much. There are lots of recorded cases of people simply not feeling pain until the dangerous situation was over, because it's a lot more viable survival strategy from evolutional standpoint than the usual "doubling over in pain". Plus the shaft of the spear in the wound would help to squeeze the cut arteries shut even if they were damaged.

Hmm. That's interesting - but what about organs that must have been punctured? I always thought that was a danger with a gut wound and not so much bleeding to death.

[Shryke]

Trollocs seem to be Jordan's equivalent of orcs. I guess, the Ogier would be the good non-human race, although they're not particularly cliched.

The Trollocs are WOT's Orcs, but they were specifically created to be insanely violent killing machines, so it at least makes sense.

[Nerdanel]

The Trollocs are WOT's Orcs, but they were specifically created to be insanely violent killing machines, so it at least makes sense.

You know, that's exactly the same as Tolkien's orcs.

[Shryke]

You know, that's exactly the same as Tolkien's orcs.

Well ... kinda. I'm no Tolkien expert, but as I remember JRRT was uncomfortable with the idea of Orcs being mutilated Elves or specifically evil or whatever. He didn't like the idea of a race that was just EVIL.

[TrueMetis]

Maybe I more so meant that Gregor still had the strength to crush his skull while his life is bleeding out of him. It probably just upset me because I wanted to see him killed so bad.

Say one thing about Martin, say he makes compelling characters.

A dying man (or animal actually) is probably the most dangerous thing a person can face. Ask any police officer (or hunter).

Hmm. That's interesting - but what about organs that must have been punctured? I always thought that was a danger with a gut wound and not so much bleeding to death.

It is possible that none of the organs were punctured and a few of them (stomach and kidneys for example) take a long time to kill you if punctured.

[Durckad]

Well ... kinda. I'm no Tolkien expert, but as I remember JRRT was uncomfortable with the idea of Orcs being mutilated Elves or specifically evil or whatever. He didn't like the idea of a race that was just EVIL.

IIRC, in the Silmarillion, they were pure evil, corrupted elves. At some point later, he changed his mind on the corrupted elves bit and made them a created race of pure evil. So, it doesn't seem like he had any problems with pure evil races.

I'm pretty sure that's the case. I always found the little differences between the Silmarillion and later versions kinda jarring so that particular bit stuck in my mind.

[Rakka]

Hmm. That's interesting - but what about organs that must have been punctured? I always thought that was a danger with a gut wound and not so much bleeding to death.

Nah, the main danger is infection, fecal matter not being something that you want in contact of open wounds. Unless you bleed to death in the first hours/minutes (depending what got cut) massive infection is what'll kill you. Most of the organs in the lower stomach area are not instantly fatal when wounded, and there's mostly kidneys, spleen and liver to take into account anyway. Based on my understanding of biology, only liver wound would make the death much faster. There's a lot of blood vessels in there. Kidney failure would probably make you die a bit faster too since they clean out the shit in your bloodstream, but there are two of the little buggers.

[MattL86]

A few that annoy me:

1. Magic being divided into water, wind, earth, and fire. Actually, anything to do with Aristotle's four elements bothers me. Then again, most magic is lacking in originality.

2. An assumption that no matter wher you are, travelling north will ensure that the weather gets colder. This is only true of Northern Hemisphere continents in OUR world, why should every other world be the same?

3. On a related note, if you keep going far enough north you are bound to run into vikings/barbarians.

4. Women in combat. Can be done well (though rarely), but mostly it's just a really lazy way to make a female character seem to be a strong personality. Logically, most women would be hugely disadvantaged in physical combat, yet most women who fight in fantasy seem to be far above your everyday soldier.

5. The overuse of the letter 'y' in fantasy spellings.