Three treasons for Dany

[Merihathor]

I'm a bit confused about something, so thought I'd ask and see if I can get myself on the same page as everyone else.

I thought the first treason she encountered was when she trusted the shaman/magi (her name escapes me at the moment) to bring back Drogo. Her love of Drogo led her to be blinded to anything but getting him back, so she was betrayed once already for love. This was my understanding, at least, so I'm puzzled as to why folks are discussing how else she'll be betrayed for love. Perhaps no one really knows for sure and I'm putting all my cards on the Drogo event was the betrayal for love, but better to ask then assume.

Also, I can't quite recall what Jorah was to regain with his deception with Daenarys, but memory is saying that he'd regain is knightship and by extension, his ancestral lands (Bear Island). If I'm remembering this correctly, then wouldn't this be a possible betrayal for blood (at least from the viewpoint of Dany, as she seems to think his betrayal was part of the triple curse that she had heard)?

Anyway. My apologies for the jumbled comments.

[Liadin]

I'm a bit confused about something, so thought I'd ask and see if I can get myself on the same page as everyone else.

I thought the first treason she encountered was when she trusted the shaman/magi (her name escapes me at the moment) to bring back Drogo. Her love of Drogo led her to be blinded to anything but getting him back, so she was betrayed once already for love. This was my understanding, at least, so I'm puzzled as to why folks are discussing how else she'll be betrayed for love. Perhaps no one really knows for sure and I'm putting all my cards on the Drogo event was the betrayal for love, but better to ask then assume.

The "for" in the "betrayal for blood/gold/love" is generally thought by readers to refer to the motivation of the betrayer. Thus, Dany's feelings toward Drogo are irrelevant, it's Mirri Maz's that matter. She's generally thought to have been the betrayal for blood, because she killed Drogo in revenge for her people, whom he'd killed.

Also, many boarders think the betrayals will happen in the order in which they were prophesied. Thus, blood first, then gold, then love.

Also, I can't quite recall what Jorah was to regain with his deception with Daenarys, but memory is saying that he'd regain is knightship and by extension, his ancestral lands (Bear Island). If I'm remembering this correctly, then wouldn't this be a possible betrayal for blood (at least from the viewpoint of Dany, as she seems to think his betrayal was part of the triple curse that she had heard)?

Anyway. My apologies for the jumbled comments.

Blood? I dunno, I don't see much connection. He's not doing his blood relatives much good by going back even if he does so, and given that his family isn't usually treasonous, I wouldn't say he has "traitors' blood." Seems like we just had a discussion of this. I see Jorah's deception as too minor to be one of the prophesied treasons.

[Merihathor]

Ah, ok. Thanks for clarifying that.

[Salander]

Personally I thought Jorah's betrayal was the one for gold (he was in Varys's employment i.e. gets money, the promise of a return home and his position). I also Dany took Jorah's betrayal pretty hard. His betrayal meant a lot to her because she hadn't seen it coming and she'd trusted him. His information had sent the assassins of Robert after her to kill her when she was pregnant and set in motion events that led to Drogo's death. His refusal to accept he had done something wrong was the reason she could not forgive him and bring him back into the fold. It might seem small to readers, but it wasn't to Dany - someone who had, in effect, been an orphan, the beggar king's sister, and then loses the only real stability she has had in her life (with the death of Drogo).

I'm interested in the one for love and I'm thinking it might be Tyrion (as others have noted for Jamie). It might just be speculation but I think that's a pretty cool theory.

[Liadin]

Personally I thought Jorah's betrayal was the one for gold (he was in Varys's employment i.e. gets money, the promise of a return home and his position). I also Dany took Jorah's betrayal pretty hard. His betrayal meant a lot to her because she hadn't seen it coming and she'd trusted him. His information had sent the assassins of Robert after her to kill her when she was pregnant and set in motion events that led to Drogo's death. His refusal to accept he had done something wrong was the reason she could not forgive him and bring him back into the fold. It might seem small to readers, but it wasn't to Dany - someone who had, in effect, been an orphan, the beggar king's sister, and then loses the only real stability she has had in her life (with the death of Drogo).

I'm interested in the one for love and I'm thinking it might be Tyrion (as others have noted for Jamie). It might just be speculation but I think that's a pretty cool theory.

Yes, it was a big deal to Dany, emotionally, but then it doesn't seem to have caused her any harm. Yes, an assassin could very well have killed her--it was a close thing with the wineseller--but they didn't, nor has she spent much time evading assassins. I just don't see Jorah's actions as being one of the three most important betrayals Dany will get in the series, because if that's true, then things are going to be way too easy for her in the upcoming books. I see the prophesied betrayals as actually doing her serious damage.

The Tyrion theory has a lot of narrative potential. I also kinda like the idea that Dany might be the betrayer in the last instance, although the problem with the Azor Ahia/Nissa Nissa theories is that the killing isn't done for love, it's done in spite of love, to save the world, or whatever.

Hey--new crackpot theory!--what if Dany's last betrayal involves her refusing to kill [insert loved one here] to forge Lightbringer? That would be amazingly different from anything we've seen before and has lots of narrative potential. I like it.

[Datepalm]

Hey--new crackpot theory!--what if Dany's last betrayal involves her refusing to kill [insert loved one here] to forge Lightbringer? That would be amazingly different from anything we've seen before and has lots of narrative potential. I like it.

:thumbsup: Espouced! Breaking the mandates of prophecy ftw!

[Salander]

:thumbsup:

Love it. I'm a fan of breaking the mandate of prophecies too.

[Imagica]

A very nice idea! And it neatly fits GRRM's habit of subverting the usual tropes.

[Besselfunction]

I suspect that Tyrion (who by then will be Dany's advisor/hand) will betray Dany for the sake of Jaime.

As for the betrayal for gold, I guess it could be anyone close to her at the moment. However, my money is on Missandei or perhaps Daario.

[Mithodiel]

As for the betrayal for gold, I guess it could be anyone close to her at the moment. However, my money is on Missandei or perhaps Daario.

I can't see Missandei being motivated to betray Dany for gold. Dany's probably the most kind master she's ever had.

On the other hand, Daario Naharis has already shown that he's willing to betray an employer for enough gold. I hope that Dany sees it coming.

-- Mith

[Jonias Snow]

Here are my theories for the mounts.

Like everyone else the first mount HORSE (bedding Drogo for his mounted warriors), but we know now that lead to a different army other than the Dothraki. This would also refer to the 1st phase of her journey mounted on horseback.

The second mount will be A SHIP, afterall she needs a fleet for her army, All of Westeros will DREAD her approaching invasion. This will represent the 2nd phase of journey by ship, but like the first this may lead to a different fleet (We know the Greyjoys, Illio representing Free Cities and Sunspear will offer ships) who she at first joins with might not be who's ships she ends up on, afterall she bedded Drogo but ended up with The Unsullied.

The third mount will be the DRAGON, (she loves her dragons and Westeros), the third phase of her journey is conquest, but like before her mounting the Dragon for conquest of Westeros will end up changing as her use of the Dragons will be to save Westeros from The Others.

[Jonias Snow]

The 3 treasons are part and parcel of the 3 mounts from my analyis.

Dany was going to have an army of Dothraki, but she was Betrayed by Mirri (blood vengeance upon Drogo and his son) and she ended up with The Unsullied. The first fire she lights brings life to her dragons.

The second treason for gold, to me she is going to take a fleet promised by a certain faction, but upon landing is betrayed by that faction (person) and ends up allying with someone else. The second fire she lights brings death to the faction (I think it will be a city) that betrayed her.

The third treason comes about while she is using her dragons for conquest and is betrayed by someone who loves her or who loves another. The fire that concludes this treason I cannot figure out yet though, but she lights this fire for love, which means to me she burns something or someone out of love. It might represent burning the Others for love of Westeros as an example.

[wolfdroppings]

I think koolkat is on to something and it is a theory and conclusion I came to the second time I read through the series. It has to do with the greater good. The third betrayal (for love) will involve tempering the real Lightbringer. Jon will have to plunge it through Dany’s heart so he can use it to stop the Great Other. The Song of Ice and Fire is ultimately the story of the Battle for the Dawn and tPtwP. Like it or not, Jon is the main character of this story.

[Miriel]

The third betrayal (for love) will involve tempering the real Lightbringer. Jon will have to plunge it through Dany’s heart so he can use it to stop the Great Other. The Song of Ice and Fire is ultimately the story of the Battle for the Dawn and tPtwP. Like it or not, Jon is the main character of this story.

I dunno ... I have a hard time with this. Seems much more likely (to me) that we have gotten past the whole Nissa Nissa thing when Dany smothered Drogo. No doubt by then she loved him, and the end result was the dragons, who (again to me) are most likely Lightbringer.

I also agree with the idea up-thread aways that one of the betrayals will be Tyrion, to save Jamie, who has got to be really high on the list of people Dany wants dead.

And I have always thought Drogo could be seen as the mount to "dread" b/c she was so afraid of him before they married. And it was awhile before that changed really. But if the prophecy is going in strict chronological order that won't work, I know (bed, dread, love) ... So ,alternatively, I also have thought Tyrion could be the mount to dread, for obvious reasons. That would leave Jon to love.

My two cents.

[Liadin]

I dunno ... I have a hard time with this. Seems much more likely (to me) that we have gotten past the whole Nissa Nissa thing when Dany smothered Drogo. No doubt by then she loved him, and the end result was the dragons, who (again to me) are most likely Lightbringer.

While that's a reasonable theory, it seems almost like cheating for that to be it. Dany didn't kill Drogo to make Lightbringer. She killed him because he was a vegetable and she knew he wouldn't want to live like that. Euthanasia =/= sacrifice. If there's going to be an AA/NN story at all, I think the person in the role of NN needs to be healthy and mentally competent.

... So ,alternatively, I also have thought Tyrion could be the mount to dread, for obvious reasons.

Why would Dany marry/sleep with Tyrion at all, if she dreaded him? She doesn't need a man to give her power any longer, and Tyrion doesn't bring an alliance or an army or anything she needs. His brains and his knowledge of Westeros might be helpful, but given his current situation I can't imagine he'd demand her favors in exchange (that would be a ridiculously stupid move). Euron seems like a more likely choice to me simply because he potentially has some leverage over Dany (he can offer ships, he currently controls a good bit of the North and has an island base from which she could invade, plus he has that dragon-controlling horn).

I kinda want to see Tyrion as the one to love, actually. That would be quite an.... interesting relationship.

[Datepalm]

I kinda want to see Tyrion as the one to love, actually. That would be quite an.... interesting relationship.

On the one hand, yeah, but on the other - how cheesily wish fulfilling can you get? I like Tyrion and I like Dany, but for Tyrion to just conveniently show up and become bestest friends (or lovers) forever and ever is far too neat. Tyrion is way too messed up right now, and his various familial hangups are too important. And Dany herself is not entirely noted for that mellow, stable temperament.

[Liadin]

On the one hand, yeah, but on the other - how cheesily wish fulfilling can you get? I like Tyrion and I like Dany, but for Tyrion to just conveniently show up and become bestest friends (or lovers) forever and ever is far too neat. Tyrion is way too messed up right now, and his various familial hangups are too important. And Dany herself is not entirely noted for that mellow, stable temperament.

There would be fireworks. That's part of what would make it interesting. ;)

I mean, yeah, for ugly, disfigured Tyrion to get this gorgeous girl would definitely be wish-fulfillment and I'm not a huge fan of that.... but Dany having this perfect relationship with anybody is, and I really don't like the idea of a Dany/Jon relationship.

(Plus, Tyrion being Martin's fave and all, I think he's going to get some gorgeous girl before the series is over.)

[Datepalm]

There would be fireworks. That's part of what would make it interesting. ;)

I mean, yeah, for ugly, disfigured Tyrion to get this gorgeous girl would definitely be wish-fulfillment and I'm not a huge fan of that.... but Dany having this perfect relationship with anybody is, and I really don't like the idea of a Dany/Jon relationship.

I have no idea where Jon/Dany comes from tbh. If we go by R+L=J...well, despite appearing quite a lot, I don't think GRRM has made any particular effort to remove the stigma of incest. (Jaime and Cercei rarely manage better than icky). If we do end up with Jon/Dany, I predict a cold and loveless marriage of political necessity.

[Alexia]

Why would Dany marry/sleep with Tyrion at all, if she dreaded him? She doesn't need a man to give her power any longer, and Tyrion doesn't bring an alliance or an army or anything she needs. His brains and his knowledge of Westeros might be helpful, but given his current situation I can't imagine he'd demand her favors in exchange (that would be a ridiculously stupid move). Euron seems like a more likely choice to me simply because he potentially has some leverage over Dany (he can offer ships, he currently controls a good bit of the North and has an island base from which she could invade, plus he has that dragon-controlling horn).

I agree with this; if the mount to dread isn't Drogon (and I think it is) Victarion or Euron are the most likely candidates. Pitifully, if Daario is any indicator, Euron even appears to be Dany's type.

What about Quentyn? Couldn't he be the mount to love? Or even (this might be a stretch) the one to dread, given how badly she needs the alliance with the Martells?

[Liadin]

I have no idea where Jon/Dany comes from tbh. If we go by R+L=J...well, despite appearing quite a lot, I don't think GRRM has made any particular effort to remove the stigma of incest. (Jaime and Cercei rarely manage better than icky). If we do end up with Jon/Dany, I predict a cold and loveless marriage of political necessity.

I have to wonder what GRRM thinks about incest. He goes out of his way to make Jaime/Cersei gross and reprehensible even while they're having romantic feelings about each other, but I can't figure out if the Targs are meant to be a different category.

What about Quentyn? Couldn't he be the mount to love? Or even (this might be a stretch) the one to dread, given how badly she needs the alliance with the Martells?

I'd be happy to see Dany fall in love with someone who didn't appear in any of the first 4 books.

Hey, do blue roses come from Dorne? They had them in the Tower of Joy, right?