Three treasons for Dany

[Mandurang]

The prophecy of the Undying goes: "Three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love..."

Here is the complete prophecy, if anyone wants to read it again:

...the shape of shadows ... morrows not yet made ... drink from the cup of ice ... drink from the cup of fire ... mother of dragons ... child of three ...

‘Three?” She did not understand.

...three heads has the dragon ... the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air... mother of dragons ... child of storm ... The whispers became a swirling song. ... three fires must you light ... one for life and one for death and one to love ... Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt ... three mounts must you ride ... one to bed and one to dread and one to love ... The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath. ... three treasons will you know ... once for blood and once for gold and once for love ...

I am not aware if it has been discussed before (probably), but have people speculated on what the three betrayals Dany will know are? Dany herself seems to think they (or at least two) have already come to pass. Here is the relevant excerpt, from ASoS, right after the fall of Meereen:

“I protected you. I fought for you. Killed for you.”

Kissed me, she thought, betrayed me.

“I went down into the sewers like a rat. For you.”

It might have been kinder if you’d died there. Dany said nothing. There was nothing to say.

“Daenerys,” he said, “I have loved you.”

And there it was. Three treasons will you know. Once for blood and once for gold and once for love. “The gods do nothing without a purpose, they say. You did not die in battle, so it must be they still have some use for you. But I don’t. I will not have you near me. You are banished, ser. Go back to your masters in King’s Landing and collect your pardon, if you can. Or to Astapor. No doubt the butcher king needs knights.”

But have they? Mirri Maz Duur is almost certainly the first treason, but what about the rest? Ser Jorah didn't betray Dany for love, nor gold. Well, we can argue he did, for love of his home and title, but that's stretching it a little. What do people think about that?

On that particular subject, does anyone have anything to offer concerning the three fires or the three mounts of the rest of the prophecy?

[Mad Monkey]

Jorah's betrayal might have been for gold. In fact, the grammar of the prophecy makes more sense for gold than it does for love. Jorah might have loved Daenerys, but that's not the reason he betrayed her. If Dany had died, and only Viserys remained I don't think that Jorah would have had to be in love with the beautiful king to betray him.

[Mandurang]

You know, with that kind of avatar, I'm having problems taking you seriously. I always think that's your expression when you wrote your post, and I end up reading it at as a joke. Every time. = ^_^

[Angalin]

If you want to read back, this thread has a longish discussion of that prophecy. (There are more recently started threads around; go to advanced search, select "General" and the text "treasons".) Hope that helps. :)

[nightwisp1956]

In my opinion, I think Dany's betrayal about love is yet to come. With who, I don't know. Maybe it will happen in The Winds of Winter. Maybe one of the Greyjoy brothers perhaps?

[Liadin]

I think almost no one actually believes that Jorah's betrayal was one of the three, and if Dany took thirty seconds to think about it she'd realize Jorah's attraction to her doesn't mean he betrayed her "for love." (Hopefully this will occur to her sooner rather than later, since nobody wants a stupid queen.) But I don't think saying it was for love of Bear Island is stretching it--I mean, yeah, say "love" and many people will automatically think "romantic love" or at the very least love of a person, but loving your homeland is no less legitimate. Somewhat less dramatic, but then it's a subversion and Martin likes those.

That said, I do think all three betrayals will be dramatic (in their results if not in their motivation), and Jorah informing on Dany to somebody who's on Dany's side anyway doesn't pass muster. Particularly for the love-betrayal, which by rights should cause all kinds of angst and sorrow.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

That said, I do think all three betrayals will be dramatic (in their results if not in their motivation), and Jorah informing on Dany to somebody who's on Dany's side anyway doesn't pass muster.

I think it's safe to say that Varys' work on behalf of the exiled Targs (I'm not claiming that he owes them some ultimate loyalty or anything, but he *has* been working on their behalf) falls into the top-secret category, and Jorah is very unlikely to know that his betrayal was to someone on Dany's side. If the wrong person found out it's Varys head on a spike, so the fewer who know the better.

And if so, how is it not a real betrayal? Someone trying to make a simple transaction with a drug dealer or prostitute who turns out to be an undercover cop doesn't get off the hook. Their intentions are what count.

[3idcrow]

I like the idea (not mine, alas) that the third betrayal will be done by Dany, not to her. The prophecy said “three treasons you will know” which does not prevent Dany from being the one who betrays another.

I won’t be surprised if she only encountered one so far… I mean, she can know more then three cases of treason, but it's only three that count as a part of this prophecy, right? But whether Jorah's betrayal counts among these three or not, it's still a real betrayal, IMO. The fact that he changed his loyalty just makes me sorry for him but it doesn't change the fact the he betrayed Dany.

[T.D. Newton]

The phrasing bothers me a little as far as chronology. I mean, does the fact that Jorah technically betrayed Dany prior to the prophecy make any difference? It goes "you will know treasons" meaning she will feel them, not "three will happen starting ... now," right?

[Datepalm]

I can't help but assume that the three 'for love' from the different parts of the prophecy all refer to the same person/event/etc. The various things people do for love is such a theme of the books, its got to be something really significant.

[3idcrow]

I can't help but assume that the three 'for love' from the different parts of the prophecy all refer to the same person/event/etc. The various things people do for love is such a theme of the books, its got to be something really significant.

So the mount she rides for love is the same she will betray/ be betrayed by?

[Datepalm]

So the mount she rides for love is the same she will betray/ be betrayed by?

Yup. Life sucks, no?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I agree that I don't think the 2nd and 3rd betrayals have happened yet.

Because I think the betrayals in the prophecies will be major life changing consequences.

The first one ended in the death of her husband and her unborn son, sent her life in a completely different direction than the one she led beforehand. That's the level of betrayal we are talking about. Jorah's betrayal is simply not something on that level.

If you tie in the 3 mounts with the 3 betrayals. Then the first betrayal led to the death of the first spouse/lover, so the next 2 could follow in a similar pattern.

[Liadin]

I think it's safe to say that Varys' work on behalf of the exiled Targs (I'm not claiming that he owes them some ultimate loyalty or anything, but he *has* been working on their behalf) falls into the top-secret category, and Jorah is very unlikely to know that his betrayal was to someone on Dany's side. If the wrong person found out it's Varys head on a spike, so the fewer who know the better.

And if so, how is it not a real betrayal? Someone trying to make a simple transaction with a drug dealer or prostitute who turns out to be an undercover cop doesn't get off the hook. Their intentions are what count.

I'm not claiming it wasn't a real betrayal, just that as an event in a story, it's very anti-climactic. It may be true that Jorah doesn't know what side Varys is on, and Dany certainly doesn't, which is why she takes it so seriously. But we the readers know that he is, and it would be quite a letdown for us if that was one of only three betrayals ever. I'm more of the opinion that all three will be major, personal, and have some sort of devastating effects--and like I said, Jorah's actions and their results don't measure up to that.

I do think Dany might be the betrayer in one of those cases, but just to throw out a non-romantic betrayal: the idea that Tyrion might betray Dany for Jaime's sake has been thrown out there as a betrayal "for love."

[Guest Other-in-Law]

I'm not claiming it wasn't a real betrayal, just that as an event in a story, it's very anti-climactic.

OK. I don't have any strong opinions on who any of the three betrayals or fires will be/have been (just the mounts) but I definitely see Jorah as *a* betrayal, though not necessarily one of the big three prophesied betrayals.

[Liadin]

OK. I don't have any strong opinions on who any of the three betrayals or fires will be/have been (just the mounts) but I definitely see Jorah as *a* betrayal, though not necessarily one of the big three prophesied betrayals.

No argument here. I'm not sure why anyone interpreted my argument to mean that Jorah didn't really betray Dany--I just don't see his betrayal as important enough to be part of a prophecy. And the major reason I hold that opinion is because the guy Jorah betrayed her to was actually covering for her. I expect the three prophesied betrayals to cause her serious harm.

[3idcrow]

Yup. Life sucks, no?

Well, he/she will be definitely in the best position to commit such a treason.

[Liadin]

Well, he/she will be definitely in the best position to commit such a treason.

Here's the issue with that theory, though. The prophecy said that the treason would be for love. Indicating, in other words, that love is the motivation for the betrayal. I know a lot of people believe that Dany and Jon will fall in love and it will somehow end tragically through this third betrayal, but it doesn't quite fit the wording; being betrayed for love isn't the same as being betrayed by someone who loves you, even though Dany thinks it is. It could mean that Dany's lover (I sincerely hope that it isn't Jon) betrays her "for her own good"--for instance, he betrays Queen Daenerys, causing her to lose a good deal of her power, because he loves her and believes that Dany as a person will be better off. Or it could mean that the betrayer (whether Dany's lover or not) betrays her for love of someone else. A third option might be her lover betraying her for love of an ideal--the greater good, or what have you--but the general thinking seems to be that the betrayal would be for the love of a specific person. At any rate, I have trouble with the idea that Dany and someone else are mutually in love, and then that person betrays her for love; it doesn't quite fit.

ETA: The more I think about it, the more I think the betrayal for love should be for love of a person. Aside from the dramatic benefits, having it be an ideal or something is tricky because taken broadly, "love" can encompass almost any motivation. MMD? Loved her people, whom Drogo killed. Tywin? Loves his House's honor. Littlefinger? Loves himself. Betrayal for gold? Clearly somebody loves money. And so on. But the treasons aren't all supposed to be for love. To keep the prophecy making sense, it might be better to stick to one individual as the motivating factor, which makes it less likely that Dany's lover will be the perpetrator.

[Datepalm]

The one that worries me more is the" mount to dread", to be honest. If Drogo was 'to bed', how bad is the dread going to be? And who's going to have that kind of power over Dany from here on out?

[Guest Other-in-Law]

The one that worries me more is the" mount to dread", to be honest. If Drogo was 'to bed', how bad is the dread going to be? And who's going to have that kind of power over Dany from here on out?

Euron Crow's Eye. And not from here on out, just until someone kills him.