Three treasons for Dany

[Liadin]

As far as Dany's mounts, it's generally assumed that Drogo was the "one to bed," but we can't be 100% positive about that. There was some dreading and some loving going on. Granted, there wasn't much dreading and it was a pretty sorry love story, but really he could fit any of the three if necessary (and if asked, I'm sure Dany would call him the "one to love," not that she has a great track record wrt prophecy interpretation). Sure, their relationship was built mostly around sex, but so is every romantic relationship in these books. And yes, I too would like to see the dreading and the loving be a bit more dramatic, but I don't think we can classify Drogo definitively as of yet.

And as far as the treason for love.... here's a new idea: suppose "treason" is meant literally and the treason involved is the man sleeping with Queen Dany despite not being married to her? That would be a "treason for love" and a hilarious subversion. So there's my crackpot of the week.

[Mandurang]

And as far as the treason for love.... here's a new idea: suppose "treason" is meant literally and the treason involved is the man sleeping with Queen Dany despite not being married to her? That would be a "treason for love" and a hilarious subversion. So there's my crackpot of the week.

I just don't see it, to be honest. The word doesn't quite match the deed.

[Oreo Crumbs]

As far as Dany's mounts, it's generally assumed that Drogo was the "one to bed," but we can't be 100% positive about that. There was some dreading and some loving going on. Granted, there wasn't much dreading and it was a pretty sorry love story, but really he could fit any of the three if necessary (and if asked, I'm sure Dany would call him the "one to love," not that she has a great track record wrt prophecy interpretation). Sure, their relationship was built mostly around sex, but so is every romantic relationship in these books. And yes, I too would like to see the dreading and the loving be a bit more dramatic, but I don't think we can classify Drogo definitively as of yet.

Couldn't the mount to dread just be one of her dragons? I assume she's ultimately going to ride them and it would be everyone else doing the dreading.

[Liadin]

I just don't see it, to be honest. The word doesn't quite match the deed.

Sleeping with the queen is treason unless you're the king. If a man falls in love with Dany and has sex with her, but doesn't marry her, then he is quite literally "committing treason for love." It fits the words, just not the usual interpretation of them; these discussions generally assume that treason and betrayal are synonymous.

Couldn't the mount to dread just be one of her dragons? I assume she's ultimately going to ride them and it would be everyone else doing the dreading.

Could be. There are non-sexual theories about the mounts (her silver, a dragon, and one another.... not sure what the third would be).

[Mandurang]

Sleeping with the queen is treason unless you're the king. If a man falls in love with Dany and has sex with her, but doesn't marry her, then he is quite literally "committing treason for love." It fits the words, just not the usual interpretation of them; these discussions generally assume that treason and betrayal are synonymous.

It is...if the Queen is married. If not, it's a different sort of beast altogether.

[Liadin]

It is...if the Queen is married. If not, it's a different sort of beast altogether.

Who's to say Dany won't marry again?

And IIRC Osmund Kettleblack was considered to have committed treason, although Cersei was a widow at the time. (In reality, Cersei was regent rather than queen though, whatever she called herself--I doubt Westeros has fully developed this area of the law given that they haven't had a female sovereign before.)

[Mandurang]

Who's to say Dany won't marry again?

And IIRC Osmund Kettleblack was considered to have committed treason, although Cersei was a widow at the time. (In reality, Cersei was regent rather than queen though, whatever she called herself--I doubt Westeros has fully developed this area of the law given that they haven't had a female sovereign before.)

So you're saying that Dany will marry, and then have an affair with someone? Well, I can't say that it won't happen, but it does seem a little far-fetched, at the moment at least.

About Kettleblack, his crime was that he committed treason by sleeping with Queen Margaery, not Cersei, and then for admitting (after they whipped him) that he killed the previous High Septon at the command of Cersei after she seduced him with sex. It's not said explicitly that he committed treason because he slept with Cersei. Well, I don't know the letter of Westerosi law, but from what I've read...

[raisin]

I think the word "treason" is important, and may well be building toward something that is a betrayal to the crown, but not to Dany personally. Particularly because that might take more time to register with her. I also very much like the idea of all the "love" portions of the prophecy dealing with the same person.

Personally, I always read these as likely to be occurring in chronological order, which is part of the reason I don't think Jorah is much of a candidate for one of the big three. The other part is that relatively, his betrayal was pretty lame.

Ultimately, it's just pretty early to tell. I think we've seen the first of each, but the others have yet to happen, and I hope it'll be sufficiently clear when they do. I'm fairly certain the next book ought to cover at least a few more.

[Mandurang]

Anybody feel like tackling the three fires part?

[shadow catlady]

Anybody feel like tackling the three fires part?

Isn't the first one, the one for life, the awesomest fire ever, the one that hatched the dragon eggs?

(Or are we just supposed to assume that?)

But since these books are riddled with all the ice/ fire symbolism, which is compellingly mixed with blood, magic, and even blood magic, I don't think I can tackle this here, yet. I'll be thinking (and reading) and loving fires.

[Roi Woodt]

Anybody feel like tackling the three fires part?

One for life: Viserion

One for death: Rhaegal

One to love: Drogon

[The SmilingKnight]

Betrayal for love doesnt necessarily mean it would be about love for Daenerys.

Someone could betray her for loving someone else.

Just throwing this out there as a possibility.

About three mounts - the crucial thing in that is that IT IS SHE WHO RIDES THEM.

So it really doesnt mean that sonmeone will have control over her - it means she will ride someone, have control or power over someone.

I think its clear she rode Drogo into his death bed - metaphorically, so someone will get ridden into dread and someone into love.

Personally i think one driven to dread will be either Victarion or Euron, dibs on Euron since he is more mysterious and will try to take control of Dragons from her which makes him more interesting then stupid silly Victarion who will probably meet a short and very ugly end pretty soon, only serving a purpose of getting his fleet to the Mother of Dragons.

As for love... sorry Jon old boy, you better brace for this one.

[King Hodor]

Balerion was called "The Black Dread," no? And Drogon is more or less Balerion come again. Perhaps Drogon betrays her, by becoming too vicious or uncontrollable?

[Liadin]

So you're saying that Dany will marry, and then have an affair with someone? Well, I can't say that it won't happen, but it does seem a little far-fetched, at the moment at least.

Well, she does have two more sex partners coming. It doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me that she'd marry the one to bed/dread (for political reasons) and fall in love with someone else. Quite honestly I'd prefer that to polygamy, because while adultery wouldn't be morally better, I'm weirded out by fantasy authors who suggest that Polygamy is the Solution, even though most of the characters involved didn't grow up in a polygamous culture (Robert Jordan, I'm looking at you).

Nope, no real guess as to what the fires are, although I think it's pretty clear one has already happened. Life, death and love were all mixed up in that one--I'm not convinced that the prophecies have to happen in order (I rather think the Undying were going for cadence there).

[hark22bastion]

For some reason every time i have looked for this prophecy its always been broken up and people try and figure out the individual pieces. I would like to suggest that what you are discussing is not the entire prophecy. Start where you say it starts but continue past that paragraph. The next thing that happens is Dany says "I don't understand" "Help me" "Show me". Then indigo images begin to appear. The first paragraph of images has nine total images split into groups of three.

So what im saying is that has anyone ever thought that maybe its a little wierd that GRRM gives a prophecy consisting of nine events split into groups of three followed by the POV asking "show me" and then nine images split into groups of three appear. Granted i doubt that the images go in the same order as the prophecy or that the images are even paired together the same(cause it would be way to easy) but i do think that those nine images are the fires, mounts and treasons.

[Liadin]

For some reason every time i have looked for this prophecy its always been broken up and people try and figure out the individual pieces. I would like to suggest that what you are discussing is not the entire prophecy. Start where you say it starts but continue past that paragraph. The next thing that happens is Dany says "I don't understand" "Help me" "Show me". Then indigo images begin to appear. The first paragraph of images has nine total images split into groups of three.

So what im saying is that has anyone ever thought that maybe its a little wierd that GRRM gives a prophecy consisting of nine events split into groups of three followed by the POV asking "show me" and then nine images split into groups of three appear. Granted i doubt that the images go in the same order as the prophecy or that the images are even paired together the same(cause it would be way to easy) but i do think that those nine images are the fires, mounts and treasons.

This theory has certainly come up before. The pictures can be correlated pretty well with the "mounts" (at least, if you believe the mounts are Drogo, Euron and Jon), but the fires and treasons, not so much.

EDIT: Sorry, I saw that this was your first post, so thought I'd explain a bit more.

We have three triplets:

"daughter of death"

1) Viserys's death

2) guy who looks like Rhaego might have looked

3) Rhaegar's death

"slayer of lies"

1) creepy blue-eyed king

2) mummer's dragon

3) stone dragon flying

"bride of fire"

1) riding the silver to her bedding

2) corpse on a ship

3) blue flower

I think these often get connected to the fires, treasons and mounts because of the "bride of fire" triplet--but notice that only that one has anything to do with the previous prophecies. Where do you put Viserys and Rhaegar? From a dramatic sense, it would be ridiculous for GRRM to give us a prophecy about three treasons when two (or all three, if you believe the man in front of the burning city to be Rhaego-that-might-have-been) happened before the prophecy was spoken, and one before Dany was even conceived. So we can rule that out. And Dany certainly isn't lighting fires, so that doesn't fit either. What does fit is "daughter of death", the words given at the end of the triplet: these deaths helped make Dany who she is.

There's been speculation around the "slayer of lies" triplet too--maybe the king is undead!Stannis, and the lie has to do with his claim to be the Prince that was Promised; maybe the mummer's dragon is related to someone who claims to be Aegon, not smashed against a wall after all. You might connect treasons or fires to this somehow, there just isn't much to back it up.

(Erm, and I like to think that the "bride of fire" bit doesn't mean what it's generally held to mean, because I really don't like the idea of Dany and Jon hooking up, but I admit, it's pretty heavily foreshadowed here.)

[hark22bastion]

"...three fires must you light...one for life and one for death and one to love..."

Why does it seem that most people think Dany must light something on fire?

The 'daughter of death' triplet: Visery's death- Dany is the one who suddenly changes how she acts towards him which 'lights a fire within him' or look at it as him drinking heavily which would be 'fire in his belly' or the fact that the gold was molten and literally set him on fire. She does all her actions which lead to his demise so she can begin her new Life. Rhaego- In Dany's labor dreams she watches an adult Rhaego burst into flames before her eyes. Dany asked MMD to save Drogo in which the true price is Rhaego's Death. Rhaegar's death- I dont think its the image itself that matters so much as the mysterious missing woman's name at the end. My thought is that information will open Dany to truely be able to Love someone again. Love is passion and passion is fire.

"...three mounts must you ride...one to bed and one to dread and one to love..."

Is it beacuse the first one says to bed that most seem to think these are people? A mount is simply something you ride.

The 'bride of fire' triplet: Silver trotting- She literally rides a silver horse to a stream and lets Drogo bed her. Drogo is NOT the mount the silver is(in the scene he is on top not her). Corpse on a ship- IMO this describes Victarion. At the end of AFFC he leaves with a fleet, something Dany needs to get to Westeros, and he intends on taking her for his own instead of letting Euron have her. I think the Ironborn constitute as Dread. Also its the ship the she rides on to Westeros thats the mount. "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness" i got nothing for this one.

"...three treasons will you know...once for blood and once for gold and once for love..."

Please keep in mind the word is treason so think of it from a law POV.

The 'slayer of lies' triplet: Blue-eyed king- This best describes Stannis and Melisandre keeps on Stannis about using the Blood of a king to wake a dragon. Killing someone of royal blood is treason. Mummer's dragon and Stone dragon i dont believe have been written about so im sorry i got nothing for these two yet.

Please note im just trying to get out how i see this. Im not trying to argue or state that im right and anyone else is wrong. Im just trying to get out my opinion and shed light on a topic i havent been able to find good discussion on.

[Datepalm]

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness" i got nothing for this one.

....

Please note im just trying to get out how i see this. Im not trying to argue or state that im right and anyone else is wrong. Im just trying to get out my opinion and shed light on a topic i havent been able to find good discussion on.

Its hard not to think of Jon with the wall of ice, and Lyannas association with Blue Roses, though alltogether the image ("filled the air with sweetness") is a strangely gentle and femenine one for Jon.

I have a hard time going for very literal or ironic or word-gamey interpretations of the prophecies. They're very dramatic, very romantic, almost purplish. It would be something of a betrayal of tone if they turned out not to be intesely personal and grandly epic. Horses, ships and legal loopholes are more than a little undewhelming for "Life and death and love" for me.

[trio]

There is an old theory that the "treason for love" will be Tyrion, betraying her to save Jaime, whom he loves very much still.

And there is another theory still that "gold" stands for the Lannisters/Casterly Rock/the gold mines - and in other words Tyrion will betray her to get the Rock and all it controls. But I'm not sure if I buy that - surely a condition of Tyrion helping her would be that he gets Casterly Rock and why would she even think of refusing?

I can't imagine absolutely no part of the prophesy relates to Tyrion though - he's headed in that direction. We can assume he'll play a big part in her future, even if we don't know how.

[Liadin]

And there is another theory still that "gold" stands for the Lannisters/Casterly Rock/the gold mines - and in other words Tyrion will betray her to get the Rock and all it controls. But I'm not sure if I buy that - surely a condition of Tyrion helping her would be that he gets Casterly Rock and why would she even think of refusing?

I like this one, except that, as you mention, it's hard to imagine a scenario where Tyrion would have to choose between Dany and Casterly Rock. (If Dany was losing her war, maybe....) I can't shake the idea that the gold has something to do with Illyrio though--practically the first thing we're told about him is that he'd never had a friend he wouldn't sell out if the price was right. I envision Dany forgetting that, and him betraying her in a major way.