Why Tyrion?

[trio]

While it's impossible to approve such tratment of a woman, any woman, either a whore or a slave, I see it as 180 degrees turn from Tyrion's love fantasies to a cold utilitarian approach to sex. I hope he will be able to find some middle ground. I also hope that his new view will make it less possible for him to expect Dany to love him as a man. We know she won't. We know his romantic desposition is a recepie for disaster. So, it's time for him to kill a boy. It's time for him to realyze that life is not a song.

I actually appreciated that scene - odd though that may sound!

It showed us that Tyrion has finally been knocked out of his incredibly pathetic emotional neediness. The old Tyrion would have been scanning that girls face for signs of pity, or friendliness. He would have gratefully listened to her practised patter and shrugged off the little voice that told him she probably was repelled by him.

I found that Tyrion increasingly tiresome towards the end of whateverthehell he had with Shae. So much neediness! He was literally STUCK as he couldn't even send her away. God I'm glad he seems to be over that.

And yeah, the change has manifested itself in him becoming apparently cold and brutal and trying to forget he ever had a heart at all. I'm sure this new Tyrion, all drinking and bitter, is going to be tough to read - but I think it's a tunnel he has to walk through.

It gives me hope like 3idcrow, that he will try to willfully ignore Dany's beauty and character and will determinedly keep it professional. I too would think a relationship between them to be corny.

I also really want to read a relationship in Fantasy between two main characters who are a man and a woman, and have a convincing growing respect and friendship that is always platonic. It'd be nice for a change!

No doubt he'll be a total PRICK during ADWD - but maybe he'll come out of it a more balanced and wiser individual.

Only to die in a fiery death in the last chapter of the last book no doubt! HAHAHAHA!

Ah well!

[Celebuial]

I actually appreciated that scene - odd though that may sound!

It showed us that Tyrion has finally been knocked out of his incredibly pathetic emotional neediness. The old Tyrion would have been scanning that girls face for signs of pity, or friendliness. He would have gratefully listened to her practised patter and shrugged off the little voice that told him she probably was repelled by him.

I found that Tyrion increasingly tiresome towards the end of whateverthehell he had with Shae. So much neediness! He was literally STUCK as he couldn't even send her away. God I'm glad he seems to be over that.

And yeah, the change has manifested itself in him becoming apparently cold and brutal and trying to forget he ever had a heart at all. I'm sure this new Tyrion, all drinking and bitter, is going to be tough to read - but I think it's a tunnel he has to walk through.

It gives me hope like 3idcrow, that he will try to willfully ignore Dany's beauty and character and will determinedly keep it professional. I too would think a relationship between them to be corny.

I also really want to read a relationship in Fantasy between two main characters who are a man and a woman, and have a convincing growing respect and friendship that is always platonic. It'd be nice for a change!

No doubt he'll be a total PRICK during ADWD - but maybe he'll come out of it a more balanced and wiser individual.

Only to die in a fiery death in the last chapter of the last book no doubt! HAHAHAHA!

Ah well!

Is it possible to both agree with this AND with Alexia? I don't want Tyrion to turn into a misogynistic prick and it will be very painful for me to read Tyrion's chapters if he goes this way as it appears. It can't stand people who treat women(or anyone for that matter) in this way, especially when the other person is not there by choice and would probably be far from what they are given the choice; so this may well change my sympathies towards Tyrion ... but I do think its about time he learned how to deal with his short commings when it comes to women. I don't think that its a weakness to be needy like this though, that is afterall only human and Tyrion has had very little affection from anyone. I think it is likely that he will go the way of 'evil villain' for a while and then end up being more adjusted and atune to himself. I do however feel that it is about time Tyrion had someone really love him or appreciate his skills. Knowing GRRM that might never happen. Poor bloke. I don't think he deserves all the shit he has been dealt but then a lot of the characters don't...

[nana&crow]

I do however feel that it is about time Tyrion had someone really love him or appreciate his skills. Knowing GRRM that might never happen. Poor bloke.

that's exactly what I wrote in the "what will never happen: but nevertheless you want it to happen" thread.

[Celebuial]

that's exactly what I wrote in the "what will never happen: but nevertheless you want it to happen" thread.

:thumbsup: Great minds and all that...!

[Dougsmum]

:thumbsup: Great minds and all that...!

It's so great that others have so much love to project to Tyrion's character. Sometimes I wish I could call him on the phone and tell him he's such an awesome guy.

[Fantasy Fan]

When I first read this trollish comment, I thought that the writer foolishly assumed that Tyrion being "with" Dany must mean that she would marry him and make him a dragon rider. I certainly agree that Dany won't meet Tyrion and immediately think that he would make a great husband and dragon rider.

Later, the same writer (I think) claimed that Littlefinger was his favorite character, and believes that Tyrion is less capable than Littlefinger as a player...of the game of thrones, that is.

As far as I can tell, Littlefinger has done nothing constructive. What has he done to strengthen Westeros for the coming onslaught of the Others? On the contrary is psychopathic desire to secretly exercise power even if it does nothing more than destroy things has been counterproductive.

Dany will accept Tyrion as a high-born hostage. Martin has already introduced the idea that it is the death of such hostages that makes a useful bargaining chip. While it is not obvious, Tyrion being a drunkard who is unable to keep his mouth shut could be an unwilling source of information about Dany's opposition. If he can be turned, given his problems with the family, he might provide even more such information.

What will likely happen is that drunk and insolent Tyrion will provide Dany with very helpful advice regarding her situation in Mereen. He will almost certainly design the dragon saddles. He may do a lot with training the dragons. He may figure out a way to put down the insurrection in Mereen. He may help Dany deal with her many suitors for marriage. (My guess is that she put them all off, but leave them all with hope that they will win the prize. I will choose once I sit on the Iron Throne and those who provide the most help will win my gratitude.)

[dolorouseddwasright]

When I first read this trollish comment, I thought that the writer foolishly assumed that Tyrion being "with" Dany must mean that she would marry him and make him a dragon rider. I certainly agree that Dany won't meet Tyrion and immediately think that he would make a great husband and dragon rider.

Later, the same writer (I think) claimed that Littlefinger was his favorite character, and believes that Tyrion is less capable than Littlefinger as a player...of the game of thrones, that is.

As far as I can tell, Littlefinger has done nothing constructive. What has he done to strengthen Westeros for the coming onslaught of the Others? On the contrary is psychopathic desire to secretly exercise power even if it does nothing more than destroy things has been counterproductive.

Dany will accept Tyrion as a high-born hostage. Martin has already introduced the idea that it is the death of such hostages that makes a useful bargaining chip. While it is not obvious, Tyrion being a drunkard who is unable to keep his mouth shut could be an unwilling source of information about Dany's opposition. If he can be turned, given his problems with the family, he might provide even more such information.

What will likely happen is that drunk and insolent Tyrion will provide Dany with very helpful advice regarding her situation in Mereen. He will almost certainly design the dragon saddles. He may do a lot with training the dragons. He may figure out a way to put down the insurrection in Mereen. He may help Dany deal with her many suitors for marriage. (My guess is that she put them all off, but leave them all with hope that they will win the prize. I will choose once I sit on the Iron Throne and those who provide the most help will win my gratitude.)

I certainly agree that Dany will be willing to make use of Tyrion's knowledge and skills. I don't know why people keep thinking she's going to marry him though. You don't have to marry all of your advisors, and she sure didn't marry Ser Jorah. I think she's smart enough to work with Tyrion and he's smart enough to work with her. Tyrion may be bitter right now, and I hope he works it out, but he's still a very cunning and intelligent man. He did his job as (acting) hand quite well even though he didn't get due credit. Of course the commoners wouldn't give him credit, they think of him as the evil monkey imp or something (no offence Mad Monkey). But, damn it, he did things for the good of the common people.

Tyrion is a deeply flawed and human character, and that's why so many people like him. We can see something of ourselves in him. Who hasn't fallen in love with a member of the opposite sex and had it not work out? Who doesn't sometimes feel like people judge us based on our looks instead of our abilities? Who doesn't sometimes want to put a crossbow bolt in our father's guts as he's coming out of the lavatory? Er, forget that last sentence, just unable to remain serious for too long.

I can't wait or Dance to come out so I can see more of Tyrion's life and how he comes to grips with all that's happened to him. He can either become the monster people have always asumed him to be, or ascend to a better place. I hope he ascends. Either way, should be a helluva read.

[Heal]

When I first read this trollish comment, I thought that the writer foolishly assumed that Tyrion being "with" Dany must mean that she would marry him and make him a dragon rider. I certainly agree that Dany won't meet Tyrion and immediately think that he would make a great husband and dragon rider.

Later, the same writer (I think) claimed that Littlefinger was his favorite character, and believes that Tyrion is less capable than Littlefinger as a player...of the game of thrones, that is.

As far as I can tell, Littlefinger has done nothing constructive. What has he done to strengthen Westeros for the coming onslaught of the Others? On the contrary is psychopathic desire to secretly exercise power even if it does nothing more than destroy things has been counterproductive.

Dany will accept Tyrion as a high-born hostage. Martin has already introduced the idea that it is the death of such hostages that makes a useful bargaining chip. While it is not obvious, Tyrion being a drunkard who is unable to keep his mouth shut could be an unwilling source of information about Dany's opposition. If he can be turned, given his problems with the family, he might provide even more such information.

What will likely happen is that drunk and insolent Tyrion will provide Dany with very helpful advice regarding her situation in Mereen. He will almost certainly design the dragon saddles. He may do a lot with training the dragons. He may figure out a way to put down the insurrection in Mereen. He may help Dany deal with her many suitors for marriage. (My guess is that she put them all off, but leave them all with hope that they will win the prize. I will choose once I sit on the Iron Throne and those who provide the most help will win my gratitude.)

I don't appreciate the name calling, I am not a troll.

Secondly, you can't base a player of the game of thrones on how well their preparing for The Others when no one knows about the Others. As far as I'm concerned whos moved up in the world as much as Littlefinger???

[Celebuial]

I don't appreciate the name calling, I am not a troll.

Secondly, you can't base a player of the game of thrones on how well their preparing for The Others when no one knows about the Others. As far as I'm concerned whos moved up in the world as much as Littlefinger???

According to this you are:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

I don't think it was name calling, merely pointing out the inflammatory nature of your post.

And isn't one of the main aims of the game to be prepaired for what you don't know is out to get you as well as what you can see?

[nana&crow]

I don't appreciate the name calling, I am not a troll.

Secondly, you can't base a player of the game of thrones on how well their preparing for The Others when no one knows about the Others. As far as I'm concerned whos moved up in the world as much as Littlefinger???

I think what Bill meant with his comment is that LF so far has acted for his own benefit, with only his personal interest in mind, while Tyrion has more or less combined a healthy desire for self-preservation and a will to "serve the realm" as best as he knows. he did a pretty impressive job as acting hand and it's a pity he got no credit - and this could also go into things I wish would happen, but probably won't.

[Datepalm]

re- the spoiler chapter

I don't think going from extreme romantic wish fulfilment to sexual abuse is a particular 180 here. Niether is healthy, normal or measured. Tyrion is still obsessed about the way women think about him, the shape of his relashionships, the power he has to control them. As much as he built up his persona as super-schemer with hot girlfriend in KL, now he's building himself up as this powerful, abusive, almost mustache twirling villain guy, and it still expresses inself by forcing the woman thats been forced to fuck him into some kind of theatrical position. (pun intended.) The slave would have gone through with the act just fine - he wanted something more. "Your thighs spread and your mouth shut" is as much this fantasy as "hands of gold are always cold..."

[WhiteHaven]

Well, that is a very different point that "Dany will have the ugly little stupid dwarf drawn and quartered after crucifixion for daring to offend her by opening his nasty dwarf mouth in front of her," which is pretty much what you said.

I agree that the likelihood of Dany wishing to marry Tyrion is pretty nil. I do not believe that she's in the habit of executing people for the crime of being ugly, or that Hodor is more cunning than Tyrion, or that she refuses to accept advice from people who are unattractive.

Hodor will someday be the King in the North. Wanna bet? :P

[Fantasy Fan]

I don't appreciate the name calling, I am not a troll.

Secondly, you can't base a player of the game of thrones on how well their preparing for The Others when no one knows about the Others. As far as I'm concerned whos moved up in the world as much as Littlefinger???

[/quote

You didn't think your remark was trollish?

My point is that I see no value in "playing the game." The notion that the Song of Ice and Fire is about a competition in playing the Game of Thrones, with the best characters being the best players is strange and confused.

The game of thrones is a sad distraction in a world under fundamental threat.

I don't mean to claim that Tyrion's efforts to protect Lannister dominance of the monarchy were especially valuable or made him a worthy character.

On the other hand, Littlefinger's effort to brew a civil war between the Starks and the Lannisters were horribly destructive. Westeros is much, much weaker as a result of his efforts at "playing the game" and very much vulnerable to onslaught of the others.

Tyrion's defense of King's Landing? Stannis' decision to press his rightful claim to the crown? Well, these were part and parcel of a horribly destructive civil war. But it hardly compares with Littlefinger instigating it!

Cercei's effort's to play palace politics to cut out her allies look likely to result in a three way civil war between Lannister, Tyrell, and the Faith. Jealousy of Margaery? Worries about some prophecy from childhood? Crazy. Of course, if everything works out peacefully, then it will just be a personal problem.

In conclusion, I don't care whether Littlefinger is skilled at playing the game. Why would anyone care about that?

I think it is likely, however, that Tyrion will play an important role in helping Dany save Westeros. And I expect that most of it will be intended to help her take the throne in King's Landing. But the consequence will be preparing her to defeat the Others. And that is the point of the story.

[Celebuial]

I think it is likely, however, that Tyrion will play an important role in helping Dany save Westeros. And I expect that most of it will be intended to help her take the throne in King's Landing. But the consequence will be preparing her to defeat the Others. And that is the point of the story.

You hit the nail on the head there I think. It also outlines another reason why Tyrion is so intersting it is likely that he forms some kind of relationship (or at least mingles) with pretty much every other important character... e.g. he has made friends with Jon and befriended Bran by making the schematics for his saddle, etc. I think these relationships will become more inmportant as Danny invades and then the Others 'creep up' on the rest of Westeros. I think Tyrion could well be the key to everyone(or most of Westeros) uniting against the Others.

[trio]

"schematics"

Heh, everytime I hear the word schematics I think of Jack Bauer. "Chloe, where are those schematics?!"

I absolutely agree with you thought that Tyrion hasn't made those Northern connections for nothing though. Makes you even more in awe of GRRM, that even at the beginning of GOT, he's thinking story-years ahead as to how Jon and Tyrion might help each other....

In conclusion, I don't care whether Littlefinger is skilled at playing the game. Why would anyone care about that?

Y'know I've always wondered why I can't get behind LF that much. He's a fascinating character - I just don't really care what his plans are. I get a bit bored when he's bragging to Sansa about how clever he is.

And you've hit the nail on the head for me. He doesn't care about the future of the realm. He only cares about how many puppets he'll have when the smoke clears and somebody (not him) succeeds in winning a peace.

It makes him seem petty and rather unimportant. His world view seems to be a pretty small bubble. He doesn't even seem remotely interested in Harrenhal, and that genuinely belongs to him!! He hasn't visited it, or even mentioned it!

Some LF defenders insist that he has been reaching out to Dany, that he's backing that horse. I can't remember what evidence they put forward for it. It doesn't spring to mind anyway.

So far I have no interest in him because his only firm plans seem to be resting on

(a) controlling the Vale in some indirect way - not sure why - it's a bloody boring place

(b ) controlling the Vale through Sansa - he says he'll get back WF for her but we're not sure if this is just a line and he's not that interested in the North at all, and

(c ) being an ally of the Tyrells - a family which can fall out of favour like any family when there's a war on.

At least Tyrion thinks of the country as a whole, rather than of just one part of it. Tyrion is obsessed with the Rock, but to give him his credit he never really thought about it any more than anywhere else when he was Acting Hand.

By the way, anyone like the theory that in this larger countrywide view Tyrion gets it from his father? Tywin may have been obsessed with the Rock too, but he always saw the whole country in his mind when thinking strategically.

[3idcrow]

re- the spoiler chapter

I don't think going from extreme romantic wish fulfilment to sexual abuse is a particular 180 here. Niether is healthy, normal or measured. Tyrion is still obsessed about the way women think about him, the shape of his relashionships, the power he has to control them. As much as he built up his persona as super-schemer with hot girlfriend in KL, now he's building himself up as this powerful, abusive, almost mustache twirling villain guy, and it still expresses inself by forcing the woman thats been forced to fuck him into some kind of theatrical position. (pun intended.) The slave would have gone through with the act just fine - he wanted something more. "Your thighs spread and your mouth shut" is as much this fantasy as "hands of gold are always cold..."

IDK, I read it like "I don't want any play" but maybe you are right and it's also a fantasy, only on the opposite site of the spectrum. Poor SOB, at the very beginning of GOT he was portrayed as someone who is oddly in peace with himself, but we know better now.

[Fantasy Fan]

While Tyrian's remarks to his assigned bed slave were very ugly, we don't know if he actually followed through. And even if he did, we hardly know that this will become a habit. That is, sexual release (I guess) without requiring that the woman play the role of affectionate partner. I think it is likely that even if he tries it, he will find it unsatisfying.

[Mad Monkey]

It makes him seem petty and rather unimportant. His world view seems to be a pretty small bubble. He doesn't even seem remotely interested in Harrenhal, and that genuinely belongs to him!! He hasn't visited it, or even mentioned it!

He is petty, but hardly unimportant. Remember, this is the man who is implicated in the failed assassination of 8-year old boy and the successful assassination of a 14-year old boy and a mentally-ill woman. This is the man who has engineered the downfall of kings and prime ministers, annexed two Kingdoms, and the crude frame-job of a pop singer, all to have the chance to get into the panties of a teenage girl who sort of looks like the girl he mistakenly believes he slept with several decades ago.

Petty. Unbelievably so. But hardly unimportant.

(And can you blame him for not visiting Harrenhal? Yikes!)

[Lady Spite]

I also can't understand the great love for Tyrion. His inability to keep it in his pants ended up with a good person being whipped.

[nana&crow]

By the way, anyone like the theory that in this larger countrywide view Tyrion gets it from his father? Tywin may have been obsessed with the Rock too, but he always saw the whole country in his mind when thinking strategically.

" You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year." Genna to Jaimie.

Tyrion is indeed his father's son. Cersei and Jaimie might have got the looks, but none are half the ruler their father was, while Tyrion has the potential to become one.