Why Tyrion?

[Gnomestress]

I know exactly why Dany needs Tyrion at her side.

I agree that one of Dany's biggest weaknesses is her youth and ignorance.

Tyrion is very well read, and an educated man in Westeros is a rare thing. Even Maesters - like Aemon - are impressed with his knowledge.

That, and he speaks or reads Valyrian.

This fact, combined with his fascination with history and with dragons, means that he may be one of the only people living who knows how the dragon riders of Old Valyria tamed the untameable. I bet Tyrion knows enough about the subject to figure out how to train a dragon - something Dany does not know. her Targaryen relatives were not around to provide her with that information.

He may not become a dragon rider himself, and he may not be a romantic interest of Dany's, or the mastermind behind the throne, but he would certainly be helpful at her side as an advisor.

Tyrion doesn't even have to be likeable for scenario this to work. Personally, I think it would be great to see a character get cool points for being a nerd and a bookworm. ;)

Tyrion might also be the one to design the saddles for riding the dragons as well. Remember, he's designed custom saddles before (for himself and for Bran)

[Adenspear]

One thing that intrigues and confuses me about Tyrion is that when Jon first meets him he does some strange cannonball backflip. He never displays that type of agility or grace again in the story thus far. He is often complaining about his legs hurting just from walking up stairs. What's up with that?

[Gurkhal]

One thing that intrigues and confuses me about Tyrion is that when Jon first meets him he does some strange cannonball backflip. He never displays that type of agility or grace again in the story thus far. He is often complaining about his legs hurting just from walking up stairs. What's up with that?

I heard that in an earlier version Tyrion was writen so that his physical disability did not matter very much, but Martin changed this mind and re-wrote the character although that part managed to slipp through. Also note that Tyrion's problem lies with his legs and not with his upper arms which are developed enough to fight in battles with.

[corbon]

Also note that Tyrion's problem lies with his legs and not with his upper arms which are developed enough to fight in battles with.

Note that the 'acrobatics' that he displayed was a rolling jump down from the doorway lintel to land on his hands, and hence to his feet.

But I also think a lot of people misconstrue Tyrion's aches and pains with his legs.

Watch the way Verne Troyer (Mini-me) walks. I've never heard that he has particular problems with painful legs, but any prolonged and significant leg-work (climbing, riding, etc) is going to cause some problems to anyone with a similar gait - heck, those sorts of things often cause significant aches and pains to fully functioning 'normal' limbs!

The only times Tyrion has problems with his legs are after such exertions, and I think climbing a lot of stairs. But, again, if you look at the proportional size of stairs, then that will cause leg pains and cramps for anyone.

[TrueMetis]

Note that the 'acrobatics' that he displayed was a rolling jump down from the doorway lintel to land on his hands, and hence to his feet.

But I also think a lot of people misconstrue Tyrion's aches and pains with his legs.

Watch the way Verne Troyer (Mini-me) walks. I've never heard that he has particular problems with painful legs, but any prolonged and significant leg-work (climbing, riding, etc) is going to cause some problems to anyone with a similar gait - heck, those sorts of things often cause significant aches and pains to fully functioning 'normal' limbs!

The only times Tyrion has problems with his legs are after such exertions, and I think climbing a lot of stairs. But, again, if you look at the proportional size of stairs, then that will cause leg pains and cramps for anyone.

I don't think that Tyrion and Mini me have the same type of dwarfism.

[Mark Lawrence]

Just trying to find a good place for my Tyrion question & I freely admit the answer may lie in the 9 pages of posts on this thread...

I'm trying to figure out why Tyrion is cast as an anti-hero or villain by so many people. I'm re-reading (part way through book 2) and so far he's been reasonably compassionate, reasonably brave, and shown a number of other redeeming features. What (if any) are his crimes? Have I forgotten something that's coming up?

Cheers,

Mark

[nevermore]

it's cause he's always being accused of crimes he hasn't committed and he has too many enemies and too many weakness. a bit like glass sword, when he attacks he has full use of his cleverness (treatment of LF and how he unearthed Pycelle and the way he escaped Eyrie) but when he is attacked he breaks in half because of peoples natural distrust and because of his whoring and angry outburst and he is a dwarf.

[Whitering]

Actually, he outfitted vile mountain clans he knew preyed on the common folk of the Vale with high quality arms and armor. It is noted later in the books that the mountain clans are now much more dangerous than before and that they are raiding much more often.

Maybe with LF in charge there now they will be able to kick the shit out of the barbarous individuals because Lyssa was super incompetent as a leader.

However, Tyrion is largely responsible for the increased number of women kidnapped and raped and men killed by these vile tribes.

He had cause to hate Lyssa, but his primary revenge (which he took to save his own ass), victimizes the common folk of the Vale. In Canada he would be guilty of supporting terrorism and probably conspiracy to commit murder. The only reason Tyrion gets a pass from the people on this board is we don't see any detailed results of what his increasingly armed savages actually get up to once back in the Vale.

Also, bringing them down helped keep the Lannisters in power...and there is good reason to thinking that's a bad thing. There is also a clan staying in the forest outside of King's Landing that is certainly going to go bandit on the local populace.

[nevermore]

meh, he isn't a saint. every character in Martin's book hasn't been clear cut (even Ser Arthur Dayne, he should've broken the vow and killed Aerys) anyway how the world is set so being completely white or completely dark is impossible.

[tuthmoses]

Again I ask Why Tyrion??

So many people on this board seem to be a fan of Tyrion, they also see him as intelligent.

I really don't get it,

1. He's not that smart he does a terrible job at Hand and gets outsmarted left and right, his PoV is disturbing how he thinks he knows what he's talking about the only person he ever outsmarts is Cersei and she's an idiot.

2. Him joining Dany makes no sense at all, I mean really think about it. Why would Dany this beautiful queen want this unintelligent dwarf around that couldn't manipulate his way around KL, her right hand man. Defiantly woulnd't trust hum with riding a dragon. It seriously makes no sense why would you trust this little ugly dwarf with a dragon let along to make him one of your 3 heads. If Tyrion ends up teaming up with Dany I may have to stop reading it's just to unrealistic. ITS NOT PLAUSABLE

Tyrion is an ugly little dwarf, that is honestly completly overrated on these boards, hes not as intelligent as everyone makes him out to be. Off the top of my head

Littlefinger, Varys, Euron, Stannis, Mel, Doran, Randyl Tarly, Tywin, Davos, Roose, and many more lesser bannerman I rather have at my side than Tyrion.

So please stop with the Tyrion love hes a complety overrated character with few interesting or good traits, he is defiantly the bad advisor type we all saw how much he failed serving as Hand. Dany would have a better chance with Barristan as her Hand and one of her dragon heads. I think Quentyn and Victorian should be her heads, Victorian will remind her of Khal Drogo which she will love and Quentyn has long ties with the Targs being a Martell.

if people want to be a fan of tyrion who are you to tell them not to be its their choice

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Just trying to find a good place for my Tyrion question & I freely admit the answer may lie in the 9 pages of posts on this thread...

I'm trying to figure out why Tyrion is cast as an anti-hero or villain by so many people. I'm re-reading (part way through book 2) and so far he's been reasonably compassionate, reasonably brave, and shown a number of other redeeming features. What (if any) are his crimes? Have I forgotten something that's coming up?

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark. Welcome.

Keep in mind about all of these things that it's possible to argue your way out of most of them (because Tyrion does a great deal of this in his own PoV!). If you consider these actions from the outside, however... they definitely lead to someone who is less than compassionate at the least.

A short list of some things that make him less than popular among the common folk:

Mountain clans wreaking havok in KL and in the Vale.

Policies which increased hunger in KL (although the Tyrells were surely more to blame)

Tax on brothels

He reinstated the Pyromancers which could be a serious problem... (Once Cersei was in charge she started burning down parts of the castle!)

In terms of personal actions:

He humiliated GM Pycelle simply because he was loyal to Cersei rather than him (pretty much a dick move).

He raped (?) Tysha when he was 13.

He killed Simeon Silvertongue so he could keep sleeping with Shae.

He murdered Shae in cold blood.

He murdered his father (Tywin had it coming but really it's still disturbing).

He lied to Jaime about killing Joffery.

Also here's a thread with lots of discussion of some of the crimes Tyrion is accused of:

The thing to keep in mind about Tyrion is that he has a very biased opinion of himself (as do we all to an extent). The only "outside" perspective we see of him in Cersei (who we know does not have a very clear perspective on Tyrion) and Tywin (and Tywin is only from within Tyrion's own PoV so is again biased). It will be interesting to hear what Dany and others think of Tyrion once he gets there.

[tuthmoses]

Hi Mark. Welcome.

Keep in mind about all of these things that it's possible to argue your way out of most of them (because Tyrion does a great deal of this in his own PoV!). If you consider these actions from the outside, however... they definitely lead to someone who is less than compassionate at the least.

A short list of some things that make him less than popular among the common folk:

Mountain clans wreaking havok in KL and in the Vale.

Policies which increased hunger in KL (although the Tyrells were surely more to blame)

Tax on brothels

He reinstated the Pyromancers which could be a serious problem... (Once Cersei was in charge she started burning down parts of the castle!)

In terms of personal actions:

He humiliated GM Pycelle simply because he was loyal to Cersei rather than him (pretty much a dick move).

He raped (?) Tysha when he was 13.

He killed Simeon Silvertongue so he could keep sleeping with Shae.

He murdered Shae in cold blood.

He murdered his father (Tywin had it coming but really it's still disturbing).

He lied to Jaime about killing Joffery.

Also here's a thread with lots of discussion of some of the crimes Tyrion is accused of:

The thing to keep in mind about Tyrion is that he has a very biased opinion of himself (as do we all to an extent). The only "outside" perspective we see of him in Cersei (who we know does not have a very clear perspective on Tyrion) and Tywin (and Tywin is only from within Tyrion's own PoV so is again biased). It will be interesting to hear what Dany and others think of Tyrion once he gets there.

odds are they won't like him his morals seem to be detoriating as the series goes along but he may be able to do something for them which will get him into a position of power ... likely he will have some knowledge about how to control the dragons or something from all his study of them that will make him indispensible

[Whitebeard]

A

1. He's not that smart he does a terrible job at Hand and gets outsmarted left and right, his PoV is disturbing how he thinks he knows what he's talking about the only person he ever outsmarts is Cersei and she's an idiot.

Actually, he does a really good job at being the hand in ACOK. If it wasn't for him and his investment into the defense of King's Landing, KL would have not held out until Tywin and Mace Tyrel came to the rescue.

In addition to that, he was probably the best ruler King's Landing had since Tywin was hand of the king. He did his best to rule justly, and clean up all the corruption in the city.

What you mean to say is that he wasn't a good player in the game of thrones, which is true. He was more worried about the realm than about his own selfish interests which are characteristics that =/= a good player of the game.

2. Him joining Dany makes no sense at all, I mean really think about it. Why would Dany this beautiful queen want this unintelligent dwarf around that couldn't manipulate his way around KL, her right hand man. Defiantly woulnd't trust hum with riding a dragon. It seriously makes no sense why would you trust this little ugly dwarf with a dragon let along to make him one of your 3 heads. If Tyrion ends up teaming up with Dany I may have to stop reading it's just to unrealistic. ITS NOT PLAUSABLE

1) You keep mentioning that he's ugly, what the hell does that have to do with anything?

2) You keep saying that he's not intelligent, which is retarded. He's one of the smartest people in the series, that doesn't make him good at playing the game, but he's not 'unintelligent' by any means.

3) Dany does not need a coniving person who is in it for themselves at her side, she needs someone who is loyal and will serve her. Tyrion will do that if Dany does the same for him, none of the characters you mentioned would.

Tyrion is an ugly little dwarf, that is honestly completly overrated on these boards, hes not as intelligent as everyone makes him out to be. Off the top of my head

cool story bro

Littlefinger, Varys, Euron, Stannis, Mel, Doran, Randyl Tarly, Tywin, Davos, Roose, and many more lesser bannerman I rather have at my side than Tyrion.

Enjoy that knife in your back.

Half the characters you mentioned are selfish bastards in it for themselves 100 percent of the way, WTF Roose Bolton are you kidding me?

The other half are not any more intelligent or qualified than Tyrion (Davos, Stannis, Tarly).

[Whatever]

Tyrion is a great character, i just don't love him.

[Whitering]

Oh, I also love reading his POVs, but damn, the guy deserves to die in my mind. Of course, I think drunk drivers should be shot.

[Phostopheles]

Tyrion is the Beast, he's the Thing, he's the Incredible Hulk, young nerdy men basically like him for the same reason they like Deadpool. Of course a cynical, socially inept, and often unattractive nerd is going to identify with Tyrion. He's ugly, he's shunned by society, he's an insensitive and honest jerk, and yet despite all this he's one of the wittiest characters in the game. Even if he wasn't the best player at the game of thrones, a lot people who are already fans of him by the end of book 1 (in which he actually did make several smart moves) will be blinded to his mess-ups later on.

That said, readers' interpretations of the other characters are just as dependent on their own predispositions:

Jon is Spiderman, the teenager Gary Stu with massive power and responsibility thrust upon him and just happens to succeed marvelously with every new obstacle (no coincidence that Spiderman is also the most popular Marvel character in most polls); naturally appealing to the same demographic as Tyrion except the few that see through his plot armor, but also as a result of his youth and lack of noticeable flaws, is much more accessible to young readers as a whole, as girls need a bishie hero to fawn over.

Dany is Jean Grey, generally wholesome Mary Sue that has been living with a curse looming over heard head her whole life, and even though she might have setbacks they always seem to backfire and make her even stronger. Overpowered, in fact. Male demographic will be polarized depending on whether they find her naive or realistic, but nearly all of the young female readers will identify with her on some level. Like Jon, the fact that she's hot

Arya is...I can't think of a suitable Marvel counterpart, but she appeals to nearly all of the young demographic because to girls she's an empowered female and to guys she's a badass chick. Only people who find her immature, stupid, or bloodthirsty and can't get past that would find her character unappealing.

And I could go on about the other characters. Most men hate Sansa in the first book because she's so naive and can never get over it; young girls, on the other hand, instantly identify with her. Most young readers, especially men, hate Catelyn because her character's actions are completely driven by motherly urges, a range of motivations that will be under far more scrutiny than the more general values of nationalism or house loyalty. Girls hate Theon because he's a crude ass, but guys think he's awesome. And I'd wager that Brienne's fanbase is easily the smallest of the POV characters, as not only does she have the dual curse of ugly and woman, but she's also insecure and stupid to boot. Does this mean she'll always remain this way? No. Does this mean that she'll never stop wandering around and doing nothing important? I hope not. But as it stands right now, there's very little appeal in her character from nearly any angle.

So I've established that every character has something to hate or love, depending on the reader; I happen to be of the type that appreciates each of them for what they are, warts and all. But if you're wondering why Tyrion specifically is more popular than most, the answer is as obvious as the target demographic of high fantasy novels...

Contrast Tyrion with Samwell. Physically, mentally, even socially they are both dead ringers for nerd archetypes. But the reason why nerds tend to dislike Sam but love Tyrion is that Sam has few strengths, if any. There is nothing badass, not even anything remotely admirable about his character; unlike Tyrion who strays into unrealistically brilliant territory, Sam is about as real and mundane as nerds come. Which utterly defeats his character, as in the fantasy genre people will only choose to identify with characters that are similar to their own character if they have a fantastical element of empowerment. Sam has none of this, and thus any sort of empathy he invokes in that demographic is negative, doing little more than remind them of their own shortcomings with no means of overcoming them.

[Errant Bard]

Arya is...I can't think of a suitable Marvel counterpart, but she appeals to nearly all of the young demographic because to girls she's an empowered female and to guys she's a badass chick. Only people who find her immature, stupid, or bloodthirsty and can't get past that would find her character unappealing.

X-23

And hey, I find her immature, bloodthirsty and a tad on the mary-sue side but I still like the character.

Tyrion is an abrasive, murderous, arrogant jerk, as far as i'm concerned, and he's no Beast/Hulk or whatever marvel hero I can think of, but there must certainly be a villain for him, maybe a green lantern one? Heh, maybe dr. Doom.

[Phostopheles]

X-23

And hey, I find her immature, bloodthirsty and a tad on the mary-sue side but I still like the character.

Tyrion is an abrasive, murderous, arrogant jerk, as far as i'm concerned, and he's no Beast/Hulk or whatever marvel hero I can think of, but there must certainly be a villain for him, maybe a green lantern one? Heh, maybe dr. Doom.

Completely forgot about X-23. You're dead right. I think she has a little Mary Sue in her and hope that she eventually stops succeeding as much as Jon and Dany, but I enjoy her chapters. Call me a sucker, but she's a fun character.

And I agree that Tyrion is a jerk, but again, people see what they want to see. In this case instead of seeing a bloodthirsty Beast or a Hulk gone berserk, they choose to see the quiet and scientific alter ego and pretend like the predominant personality is merely a fatal flaw. Nevermind that they're ugly. Nevermind that they spend most of their time beating the crap out of people instead of trying to reverse misconceptions about them (and admit that as much as you like the fact that they're smart, your love for them largely derives from their wanton bloodrages). They're just ugly, misunderstood creatures. The analogy is there; fans of Tyrion tend to pass off his malice as anger at being rejected, his plotting as merely being calculating, as if all of his evilness can be traced back to his tragic dwarfism. And to an extent that's true because he's such a well-written character, but I tend to view Tyrion as more of an anti-hero than an underdog. There is huge potential for evil on his part; his loyalty to the Lannisters pretty much blinded him to the fates of everyone else. Hopefully we'll see his priorities change a little in DwD.

[Lord Godric]

Actually, he does a really good job at being the hand in ACOK. If it wasn't for him and his investment into the defense of King's Landing, KL would have not held out until Tywin and Mace Tyrel came to the rescue.

In addition to that, he was probably the best ruler King's Landing had since Tywin was hand of the king. He did his best to rule justly, and clean up all the corruption in the city.

Yeah, I agree with you entirely. I really can't see where someone would get the idea that Tyrion was a horrible Hand. I think the whole point of the reader finding out that the public blamed Tyrion for everything that was happening was to show us that even though Tyrion really was trying to be a champion for the people of King's Landing he was unfairly getting none of the credit. If the purpose of the Hand of the King is to the serve the King and therefore the people, Tyrion was the best Hand we have seen in the books.

[Myrish swan]

I think that there is a grain of a point in the original post that has not been teased out yet.

The two dragon riders Dany is looking for will also be her husbands.

Certainly Tyrion might be useful to Dany, and she is thoughtful enough to look past his appearance and make use of his skills, if the giant (sorry) hurdle of him being a treacherous Lannister and a kinslayer can be overcome. But Dany's sexual tastes have been well established and they do not extend to hideously mutilated dwarves. I really find it difficult to imagine her being willing to marry him. Which might create an interesting situation, because from all we know of Tyrion, he is very likely to fall in love with her.

Yeah, and from what we know of the way GRRM writes/ treats Tyrion thus far... Dany is likely to go totally against character, and fall in love with/ hook up with Tyrion. Honestly, GRRM has basically made Tyrion his avatar/ stand in. He seems to find Dany very attractive, so I wouldn't be surprised if Dany (not a particularly well drawn character, IMO) ends up seeing past Tyrion's exterior to the golden heart within. A male fantasy-- that the inhumanly gorgeous female will disregard all the hot, athletic men around her and go for the ugly guy because of his "hidden qualities." And it will go along great with the double standards of this series regarding male/ female appearance

Seriously, it would not shock me if Dany and Tyrion hook up in ADwD. And as you can probably tell from this post, I will not be applauding if that happens.