The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII

[Dolorous J]

Dreadwolf ...the Lannisters only hold the throne because they are pretending thier sons are Baratheon's . If they admitted otherwise , all hell would break loose with the commoners, everyone major house would join to Stannis's cause , and they would be hung for treason.

So , as i said, Baratheon blood holds all the claims. ( be it fake blood or real)

[Guest Other-in-Law]

You can hold beauty in a way that is attractive or handsome with long hard features , but not so "beautiful" that two potential kings are vying for your love....Lyanna had to have been beautiful beautiful in the traditional sense. No way she was walking around looking like Eddard with a wig on . Get serious.

You just claimed that the Targaryen genes are dominant (I forgot about the Baratheons, who show zero trace of their one quarter Targaryen heritage) and you're telling other people to get serious? :lol:

And no, as a matter of fact, I did not suggest Lyanna looked like Eddard with a wig. Unlikely she had a beard for instance, but that doesn't mean she didn't have clearly Stark features with a long face. I always thought Christy Turlington, for example, has a pretty long face. Declaring that any woman with a long face cannot be beautiful is really pretty ludicrous.

[Dreadwolf]

Dreadwolf ...the Lannisters only hold the throne because they are pretending thier sons are Baratheon's . If they admitted otherwise , all hell would break loose with the commoners, everyone major house would join to Stannis's cause , and they would be hung for treason.

So , as i said, Baratheon blood holds all the claims. ( be it fake blood or real)

IMO the Lannisters only hold (although hardly) the throne because the rest of the pretenders have miserably failed so far in advancing their claims.

Human beings are not generally inclined to freely admit their sins. Saying nothing about the lions as it seems. Nor the people would automatically follow the weakest (in the military sense) possible pretender. (That*s why they do not supported openly their begar king - Vyseris once upon a time).

On a separate note a claim (as far as I understand it) is just a . . . claim - anyone can have it.

[Dreadwolf]

Unlikely she had a beard for instance, but that doesn't mean she didn't have clearly Stark features with a long face. I always thought Christy Turlington, for example, has a pretty long face. Declaring that any woman with a long face cannot be beautiful is really pretty ludicrous.

I have always thought that Sraks long faces mentioning is a kind of metaphoric expression to indicate their melancholic appearance.

[Dolorous J]

Get over it , Other-in-law , Arya is ugly as sin and Jon will never sit the Iron Throne . :)

Oh and I take offense to your suggestion that bearded women are not beautiful. They can be beautiful also :

OtherinLaw's version of Lyanna

[mikeym]

Troll

[Lady Winter Rose]

I read one book which told me that people look for symmetric shaped love's face. Or in other words people symmetric faces considered beautiful. So, if Lyanna had two symmetric sides of face, she would be considered beautiful.

edit: more symmetric than other faces.

[MoJo]

I've believed the R+L=J theory since a AGOT.

When Edric Dayne told Arya that Wylla was his wet-nurse, i thought i may have been mistaken. Then it hit me. Eddard/Howland may not have actually killed Ser Arthur Dayne. Could Dayne have taken baby Jon back to Starfall?

I bet i wasn't the only one who felt clever when they concocted this :smoking:

[jurble]

When Edric Dayne told Arya that Wylla was his wet-nurse, i thought i may have been mistaken. Then it hit me. Eddard/Howland may not have actually killed Ser Arthur Dayne. Could Dayne have taken baby Jon back to Starfall?

No, that couldn't have happened, because he is dead.

Theory of best fit = Ned arrives at tower of joy, the Kingsguard all die, Lyanna dies. Eddard is like whoa, wtf, I got a baby wtf do I do with it? Hmm. Reed being a crafty crannogman is like "My lord, you can take the babe to Starfall, and pretend it was born there, using the fact that you are returning Dawn to House Dayne as a pretense. Also, Lady Ashara totally wants you to bone her. The Daynes have similar appearance to the Targaryens, if the boy looks like Rhaegar, then everyone, knowing of your friendship with Lady Ashara will not see any further." Ed is like HMM, grumble grumble, honor and what not, thinks about how such a terrible oath this is, that he must besmirch Lady Ashara's honor, and lie about Jon being a Targ, but he goes along with it anyway.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Theory of best fit = Ned arrives at tower of joy, the Kingsguard all die, Lyanna dies. Eddard is like whoa, wtf, I got a baby wtf do I do with it? Hmm. Reed being a crafty crannogman is like "My lord, you can take the babe to Starfall, and pretend it was born there, using the fact that you are returning Dawn to House Dayne as a pretense. Also, Lady Ashara totally wants you to bone her. The Daynes have similar appearance to the Targaryens, if the boy looks like Rhaegar, then everyone, knowing of your friendship with Lady Ashara will not see any further." Ed is like HMM, grumble grumble, honor and what not, thinks about how such a terrible oath this is, that he must besmirch Lady Ashara's honor, and lie about Jon being a Targ, but he goes along with it anyway.

I actually think that Ned ask sorrowful Ashara to pretend to be boy's mother, and she either gone mad (crazy) and thrown herself off the tower, or gone mad (furious) and Ned thrown her off tower. Ned could thrown her off the tower because she threat (or promise) to expose boy's real mother.

[CFdS]

No, that couldn't have happened, because he is dead.

Theory of best fit = Ned arrives at tower of joy, the Kingsguard all die, Lyanna dies. Eddard is like whoa, wtf, I got a baby wtf do I do with it? Hmm. Reed being a crafty crannogman is like "My lord, you can take the babe to Starfall, and pretend it was born there, using the fact that you are returning Dawn to House Dayne as a pretense. Also, Lady Ashara totally wants you to bone her. The Daynes have similar appearance to the Targaryens, if the boy looks like Rhaegar, then everyone, knowing of your friendship with Lady Ashara will not see any further." Ed is like HMM, grumble grumble, honor and what not, thinks about how such a terrible oath this is, that he must besmirch Lady Ashara's honor, and lie about Jon being a Targ, but he goes along with it anyway.

You forgot Reed's "Perhaps I should have told him NOT to mention that fish girl." after Ashara jumped from the window. Otherwise: perfect fit...

[jurble]

Ned could thrown her off the tower because she threat (or promise) to expose boy's real mother.

Ned killing Ashara?

I agree, just because that sounds awesome.

[Dreadwolf]

Ned killing Ashara?

I agree, just because that sounds awesome.

To me it sounds as sound as LF story about Patchface cuckolding Stannis.

[Lady Winter Rose]

To me it sounds as sound as LF story about Patchface cuckolding Stannis.

Neither do I really believe in Ned killing Ashara, but I still prefer that Ned ask Ashara to pretend to be boy's mother.

[CryFenril]

Wow, rather cool to see this theory still being batted about like a ball of string between kittens after so many years! :laugh:

[WickerMan]

Wow, rather cool to see this theory still being batted about like a ball of string between kittens after so many years! :laugh:

We need something to keeping us going until ADWD comes out! :D

[Lord of Autumn's End]

Okay, I'm new to this site but I've read the last few pages and I just wanted to put forward the following thought:

Assuming that R+L=J is true, and Dany does end up the eventual victor at the end of the books, barring Aegon's return, Jon might be asked to supply a son or two to carry on the Targaryen House (since I believe she's barren), if he doesn't end up taking the Throne himself.

Now, granted, that would still be breaking his oaths nonetheless, but in my own opinion, one of the good things this series has done is provided a detailed deconstruction on the whole concept of Honour before Reason. If the Others are beaten back and defeated by the end of the books, and the NW finds a replacement 999th LC, I believe Jon would be much better off trying to do his part to help keep the Throne secured.

If Dany conquers Westeros, but finds herself without an heir it will almost inevitably spark a succession war. Now I'm a big fan of keeping your oaths myself, but not to foolish extents.

Course, if Aegon's still alive and survives all of the books then Jon's lineage is essentially irrelevant, but if he isn't, then I could see how GRRM could subvert the old 'lost heir to the throne' cliche by turning it a genuine ethical question as opposed to a fairy tale ending.

[jurble]

You know I just realized that all the time Rhaegar spent with Lyanna in the South, he wasn't like, enjoying a honeymoon with her. He was actually actively trying to get her pregnant. The reason he let Robert win so many battles up there while he plowed Lyanna was because he actually believed that the world depended on his getting Lyanna pregnant. Basically, he was unable to leave the South until Lyanna showed outward signs of pregnancy.

[Dreadwolf]

You know I just realized that all the time Rhaegar spent with Lyanna in the South, he wasn't like, enjoying a honeymoon with her. He was actually actively trying to get her pregnant. The reason he let Robert win so many battles up there while he plowed Lyanna was because he actually believed that the world depended on his getting Lyanna pregnant. Basically, he was unable to leave the South until Lyanna showed outward signs of pregnancy.

so prosy?!...

[Dolorous J]

You know I just realized that all the time Rhaegar spent with Lyanna in the South, he wasn't like, enjoying a honeymoon with her. He was actually actively trying to get her pregnant. The reason he let Robert win so many battles up there while he plowed Lyanna was because he actually believed that the world depended on his getting Lyanna pregnant. Basically, he was unable to leave the South until Lyanna showed outward signs of pregnancy.

That , or the fact that plowing Lyanna was probably much more fun then getting your head bashed in by Robert Baratheon.