The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII

[SFDanny]

Are you all forgot Lyanna's line: "Promise me, Ned" as I did?

Whole "broken promise" and Lya's line indicates that he broke promise to Lyanna, not Ashara, nor to Robert and children.

No, the line indicates Lyanna asked Ned to promise her something, seemingly something important enough to concern her on her deathbed. It does not necessarily mean that is the promise, or one of the promises, Ned thinks upon his having broke over the years. If R+L=J is true, Ned broke many promises to many people in order to keep that one secret.

Don't we already know the name of Jon's mother? I'm pretty sure one of dondarions outlaws told arya jon's mothers name in a clash of kings, or maybe a storm of swords.

We are told her name is Wylla, the same name Ned tells to Robert. If you believe that's the real answer I have a bridge to sell you. ;) :ohwell:

[Silverx2]

No, the line indicates Lyanna asked Ned to promise her something, seemingly something important enough to concern her on her deathbed. It does not necessarily mean that is the promise, or one of the promises, Ned thinks upon his having broke over the years. If R+L=J is true, Ned broke many promises to many people in order to keep that one secret.

We are told her name is Wylla, the same name Ned tells to Robert. If you believe that's the real answer I have a bridge to sell you. ;) :ohwell:

My only arguement to this is, he would trust some chick named wylla who he most likely has never met with this secret, but he wouldnt ever tell his wife?

[corbon]

My only arguement to this is, he would trust some chick named wylla who he most likely has never met with this secret, but he wouldnt ever tell his wife?

Wylla was Jon's wetnurse, so Ned certainly did meet her.

She was likely already at ToJ before Ned arrived - Lyanna would have had some staff there to assist her at such a dangerous time, as well as the KG we know about.

She certainly was with the Dayne household later, having been Edric's wet-nurse.

As such, she was in on everything, and trusted to be so, probably before Ned even came on the scene.

If you read the two passages where she is actually named as Jon's mother, in the first passage Robert asks what the woman's name was, but states (erroneously most likely) that she was the mother of Ned's bastard. He doesn't actually ask who the mother of Ned's bastard is, so Ned can carefully answer the exact question and give the name of the woman Robert thinks is Jon's mother. In the second passage it is just Edric Dayne, who wasn't even born at the time restating 'common knowledge'.

It seems likely that since Ned turned up at the Daynes with a Baby, and Wylla was the wet nurse, it was the easiest and most plausible lie that she was also the mother, and Ned the father. Solves almost all problems, except Ned's personal ones, heading back to his new wife and son with a bastard.

[Lady Winter Rose]

...in the first passage Robert asks what the woman's name was, but states (erroneously most likely) that she was the mother of Ned's bastard. He doesn't actually ask who the mother of Ned's bastard is, so Ned can carefully answer the exact question and give the name of the woman Robert thinks is Jon's mother.

Someone could tell thet the most plausible reason against your theory is that Ned (AT LEAST ONCE)must tell Robert that Wylla is mother of Jon.

BUT, if you assume that Robert see Jon when Ned returnt to North, to see Cat and Robb, then he must see the wetnurse. Maybe he draw conclusion or she tell him, but Robert on that day thinks that Ned tell him that Wylla is Jon's mother.

Or it was somehow like this:

Robert ask Ned for Jon's mother and Wylla shows up and claim that she is. Ned doesn't say anything and then Robert thinks he tell him so.

[Silverx2]

Wylla was Jon's wetnurse, so Ned certainly did meet her.

She was likely already at ToJ before Ned arrived - Lyanna would have had some staff there to assist her at such a dangerous time, as well as the KG we know about.

She certainly was with the Dayne household later, having been Edric's wet-nurse.

As such, she was in on everything, and trusted to be so, probably before Ned even came on the scene.

If you read the two passages where she is actually named as Jon's mother, in the first passage Robert asks what the woman's name was, but states (erroneously most likely) that she was the mother of Ned's bastard. He doesn't actually ask who the mother of Ned's bastard is, so Ned can carefully answer the exact question and give the name of the woman Robert thinks is Jon's mother. In the second passage it is just Edric Dayne, who wasn't even born at the time restating 'common knowledge'.

It seems likely that since Ned turned up at the Daynes with a Baby, and Wylla was the wet nurse, it was the easiest and most plausible lie that she was also the mother, and Ned the father. Solves almost all problems, except Ned's personal ones, heading back to his new wife and son with a bastard.

that doesn't change the fact that he puts all this trust in someone that he had never met before because she was(maybe) "already there", but for what 16 years he lets his wife live with a deep angst and hatred towards a boy that she thinks is his half son. Why wouldn't he just take her aside and be like "listen, Jon's not actually my son hes the heir to the targaryns, and the son of my sister" after like the 5th year of marriage im sure she would have been like, "oh thank the 7 gods". Instead Cat literally hates Jon snow, like to the point where she wishes he was dead. I just doesn't make any sense what so ever. Also all Targaryns have white/silver hair, jon has dark curly hair.

As for it being common knowledge that wylla was his mother/edrics wet nurse the only people that seemed to know that was ned, Robert, and the daynes. No other starks knew before arya.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Silverx2, what if he does that?

Maybe Cat would annonced that that nobody ever thinks Ned is in love with someone else than her, or that they aren't big perfect and happy family.

[Silverx2]

Silverx2, what if he does that?

Maybe Cat would annonced that that nobody ever thinks Ned is in love with someone else than her, or that they aren't big perfect and happy family.

Or maybe he tells her "hey listen keep this a secret, don't post on your twitter that i have no been unfaithful. lets keep this out of your facebook status."

[SFDanny]

Silverx2, under this scenario Ned trusts Wylla because he has to; it's that or kill her, and that's not Ned Stark. He doesn't tell Catelyn, or Jon, or anyone else in his family because it would place Jon at greater risk for anyone else to know than already does know. It screws up Jon and Catelyn's relationship, and places a tremendous strain on Ned and Cat's marriage, and it's just downright cruel to Jon, but it's safer and he keeps his deathbed promise to his sister. Sound like Ned? It does to me.

Oh, and hair stuff is just wrong. Read The Hedge Knight, if you haven't already. Look for a description of Baelor Breakspear. Note the hair color. Next go to the Citadel, on this site, and look in SSM for Martin's description of, under this scenario, Jon's half-sister Rhaenys - who takes after her mother, Elia's side of the family. There are others, but what you assert about all Targaryen's having the same hair color just isn't true.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Nor has Jon's hair ever been described as curly in the series, afair. That's something from the HBO series, which is making a number of changes of hair and eye colour from what was given in the books.

[Errant Bard]

he keeps his deathbed promise to his sister.

Not likely when he prattles about "broken promises" in the end, during his Lyanna-centric episodes.

[Datepalm]

Not likely when he prattles about "broken promises" in the end, during his Lyanna-centric episodes.

I've always assumed that was just typical Ned-angst though (Nangst?). (Lyanna : "Ned, Its a baby. A very quasi legitimate Targaryen possibly rape-baby. I like it anyway. Take care of the kid, roof, food, not murdered by usurping dynasties, that sort of thing, Ned! Promise me!" Ned: "I have betrayed my dying sisters memory and raised her child as something shy of heir to the throne. Oy vey. Oh, the broken promises.") Do you think there was something concrete Ned broke his word on?

[SFDanny]

Not likely when he prattles about "broken promises" in the end, during his Lyanna-centric episodes.

Oh, I find it very likely than Ned's thoughts about broken promises are related to regrets he has towards others in his life to which he broke promises to in order to fulfill his promise to Lyanna to keep Jon hidden and safe. Of course, he could have made a promise to Lyanna that he broke, or had yet to fulfill, as well. Something along the lines of "tell him, Ned, when he is old enough, about me and how much I loved him." That would fit right in with Ned's regrets - not having told Jon about his mother as he lays in the Black Cells. I do think, however, we are dealing with many promises to different people as Ned looks back on his life, and my point, was that if R+L=J is true, Ned broke many promises to others to keep Jon safe and his origins secret. He broke his promise of fealty to Robert, he broke his marriage promises to Catelyn by lying about Jon and setting her up to ridicule as a woman who allows a bastard to run freely in her household and to be treated as an equal to her own trueborn children, he may have broke his promise of love and dedication to Ashara in his use of her to cover Jon's tracks, and on and on it goes. Many lies and many broken promises - if this is true.

[Errant Bard]

Meh, my point was more about not using assumptions as a basis for a demonstration, even if it is prevalent in the R+L=J threads and seems validated by the group dynamics.

Anyway, I would actually find it more likely if Ned had actually told Lyanna what she wanted to hear so she would die without fear, but afterwards thought about it and broken his promise.

You, if R+L=J is true, it would make way more sense to me that way:

• It adds one more layer as to why Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna so shockingly, without regard to political consequences (R was obviously NOT an impulsive guy nor an idiot)
  
• It explains why Ned feels guilt toward Jon
  
• It makes the promise more actually significant, and Lyanna's trust in Ned existing (I mean, it's your brother, he is smart, he loves you, he's against killing children, so if you actually don't think he will kill his own nephew, there is not even a need to ask anything regarding your kid). I mean, would anyone think Ned could give up family with the full knowledge they would be killed? If you do, you have a way grimmer view on what Lyanna thought of her own brother, and consequently on what Ned was actually capable of, which should put a big dampener on that supposed "honour" of his, and maybe lend credibility that he could, for example, kill a jealous Dayne sometimes later.
  
• It fits with the "prophecy" aspect of the whole shebang, namely that the drive behind Jon was saving the world and the promise would have something related to that (like "make him the prince and/or the king who was promised/foreseen and don't let Robert do as he pleases
  

[SFDanny]

Anyway, I would actually find it more likely if Ned had actually told Lyanna what she wanted to hear so she would die without fear, but afterwards thought about it and broken his promise.

Just what promise to Lyanna do you think he broke? Obviously he didn't break a promise to keep Jon safe from Robert and hide his relationship to Lyanna and Rhaegar - once again assuming R+L=J to be true for this point and the rest of the post. So what promise to Lyanna is more likely? That he promised her to raise the realm against Robert and put the infant Jon on the throne? If so, what would make that more likely? Lyanna is lying on her deathbed and, assuming she knows the same things the Kingsguard trio knows about events in the outside world, she knows that Rhaegar is dead, she knows his children with Elia have been murdered, she knows that Rhaegar's vision of the prophecy was false in that "two heads of the dragon" are already dead, she knows that the realm is torn apart and the Targaryen forces are scattered and most have bent the knee to Robert, and she knows Ned helped all this to take place. So do you really think it is more likely that Ned promises to place Jon on the throne based on Lyanna's dying wish because she still believes a disproven prophecy? Or is it more likely that Lyanna is worried about her son's safety and that is what she wants first and foremost from her brother? Right now, based on what we know now, I'll choose the latter as more likely.

You, if R+L=J is true, it would make way more sense to me that way:

• It adds one more layer as to why Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna so shockingly, without regard to political consequences (R was obviously NOT an impulsive guy nor an idiot)

We agree on the assessment of Rhaegar. He was neither impulsive nor an idiot.

It explains why Ned feels guilt toward Jon

The fact he has never spoken to Jon about who his mother and his real father are doesn't explain it? We can come up with lots of reasons for Ned to feel guilty toward Jon, but what he doesn't feel guilty about is keeping him safe. That much he did.

It makes the promise more actually significant, and Lyanna's trust in Ned existing (I mean, it's your brother, he is smart, he loves you, he's against killing children, so if you actually don't think he will kill his own nephew, there is not even a need to ask anything regarding your kid). I mean, would anyone think Ned could give up family with the full knowledge they would be killed? If you do, you have a way grimmer view on what Lyanna thought of her own brother, and consequently on what Ned was actually capable of, which should put a big dampener on that supposed "honour" of his, and maybe lend credibility that he could, for example, kill a jealous Dayne sometimes later.

I think Lyanna believes Ned will protect Jon. Not that she has much of a choice as she lies dying, but I think she believes Ned will save Jon from Elia's children's fate. However, he doesn't have a great track record of success at the moment she asks him to promise her. But here I think we have a disagreement. I think Lyanna thinks her son was in danger from her family. Perhaps not death at their hands, but rejection certainly. Her father, I believe, and her eldest brother rejected her choice of Rhaegar over Robert, with Brandon challenging her lover to a fight to the death. They choose honor over love. Why would not Lyanna at least think that Ned might do so as well? Robert is as close to him as a brother, and he tries to convince Lyanna she should marry him even knowing him to have fathered bastards before they are to be married. If he has not already explicitly sided with Brandon and Rickard in condemning her choice, she has reason to think he might. She is, after all, asking Ned to choose love over honor. She is asking him to commit treason. So, no, I agree, that it is unlikely that Lyanna believes her brother will kill her son, but telling his king, who will kill the boy, the truth is another thing entirely.

It fits with the "prophecy" aspect of the whole shebang, namely that the drive behind Jon was saving the world and the promise would have something related to that (like "make him the prince and/or the king who was promised/foreseen and don't let Robert do as he pleases

Lyanna may well think Jon is destined to do great things in the fulfillment of a prophecy, but she knows Rhaegar's view of how it will happen was false. At that particular moment, after Ned has just killed the men who Rhaegar ordered to protect her, it is more likely to me she is concerned about young Jon's survival.

[Sidonie]

Well, just to stir the pot, as far as Lyanna knew, Elia's kids were dead, but Viserys was still alive, and Rhaegar's mom was pregnant (with Dany). So there were still 2 dragon heads left! :)

[SFDanny]

Well, just to stir the pot, as far as Lyanna knew, Elia's kids were dead, but Viserys was still alive, and Rhaegar's mom was pregnant (with Dany). So there were still 2 dragon heads left! :)

Highly unlikely anyone outside Rhaella's closest confidants on Dragonstone know she is 2-3 months pregnant, but even if Lyanna somehow knows this fact it still isn't Rhaegar's version of the prophecy. He thought the three heads of the dragon were his children, not just three Targaryens. Presumably Lyanna knows what Rhaegar believed, and she knows it to be false by the time Ned shows up.

[Errant Bard]

So what promise to Lyanna is more likely? That he promised her to raise the realm against Robert and put the infant Jon on the throne? If so, what would make that more likely?

Yes.

assuming she knows the same things the Kingsguard trio knows about events in the outside world

That's a lot to assume, I'm not willing to do it.

So do you really think it is more likely that Ned promises to place Jon on the throne based on Lyanna's dying wish because she still believes a disproven prophecy?

Yes, and it's not actually disproven, you just assume it is.

Or is it more likely that Lyanna is worried about her son's safety and that is what she wants first and foremost from her brother?

No. I find it unlikely for Lyanna to doubt her brother like that, and/or if she doubts him that much, to trust his word. You can't have it both way: either she thinks his honour is solid gold, in which case, there is zero chance he's going to harm any child of hers, or she thinks his honour is not solid, in which case a promise cannot make "fear go out of her eyes" because doubt will stay.

The fact he has never spoken to Jon about who his mother and his real father are doesn't explain it?

It's not satisfying, no, plus he should feel guilty towards everyone impacted, Catelyn first, too. Having failed to raise him as he should have been, on the other hand, implies a huge debt of honour toward Jon.

Her father, I believe, and her eldest brother rejected her choice of Rhaegar over Robert, with Brandon challenging her lover to a fight to the death. They choose honor over love. Why would not Lyanna at least think that Ned might do so as well?

Because that's not what happened: Brandon rode to kill the kidnapper of his sister, Rickard rode to try to save his son and heir's life. That's all about protecting her/getting her back, not rejecting her.

Unless you assume some more stuff: that it was Lyanna's choice to disappear at that time, that she had time to discuss the issue with Brandon/Rickard, and/or that she left some note telling them she was the one making this choice (and that Brandon actually read that letter instead of, you know, rushing to the Red Keep directly)... And again, of course, that she would think her own brother would agree about honour killing (of her and her hypothetical children, since it's what we're talking about).

Robert is as close to him as a brother

You cannot use this and the "she is aware of what happened in KL" in the same post. Ned and Robert had a fallout in KL, and the reasons are, precisely, the killing of Targaryen children.

She is asking him to commit treason. So, no, I agree, that it is unlikely that Lyanna believes her brother will kill her son, but telling his king, who will kill the boy, the truth is another thing entirely.

It's not. Seriously, how can you argue that Ned would tell Robert anything in full knowledge that it would lead to him assassinating a kid, and not consider it direct murder? That's totally loony, contrasted with the philosophy about "the one who passes the sentence should swing the blade". I refuse to believe Lyanna would think her brother to be some sort of Littlefinger mark2, or a moron not thinking of consequences beyond the next ten seconds.

Lyanna may well think Jon is destined to do great things in the fulfillment of a prophecy, but she knows Rhaegar's view of how it will happen was false. At that particular moment, after Ned has just killed the men who Rhaegar ordered to protect her, it is more likely to me she is concerned about young Jon's survival.

Urg, assumption, assumption, assumption. You don't know what she knew, you don't know what Rhaegar thought in the end about the prophecy (the position you say is his, he held more than a year before, and he has a track record of actually adapting his theory to the circumstances, plus he disappeared a year and might have gone abroad for all we know), you don't know what Lyanna thought about the prophecy (women are not mere extension of their rapist, automatically parroting what the guy thought) and you don't even know what the Kingsguard orders really were.

Everything I wrote my first post for, you do it again here: Yes, assuming you are right about A, and that A implies B, then you are right about B. But you're not right about A, it's opinion, it's wind, and yet you try to convince others about B implicitly saying that A is fact. A staple of R+L threads, but Meh.

[Morekyyn]

Errant Bard.

I know your love for debate is larger than life,

but...

You´re willing to assume that Rhaegar married Lyanna, but think it is to big an assumption to assume that the Kingsguard guarding her would bring their future queen important news about her husbands kin? News that will make her and her son that much more important to the realm?

I mean we are all speculating here, but to me that´s the small assumption.

[Silverx2]

what if she had wanted ned to actually kill Jon.

What if it was a rape baby, and Lyanna wanted him killed, and wanted all of the Targs killed. Ned has shown that he is opposed to killing children, what if thats the broken promise?

[Sidonie]

Awww...I suppose that's POSSIBLE :(

but I don't like to think of Lyanna as being that mean!

Maybe she wanted Jon sent off to the Free Cities with Elia's son Aegon (if that's what really happened to Aegon, and he wasn't truly killed). Or maybe she wanted Jon sent off with Ser Darry, Viserys and Dany. Those things are also possible...