Bay Area students wear Stars-&-Stripes to class

[Old Nan]

Racism and sexism are not in my opinion easily comparable, and certainly not interchangeable in breezy analogies. While your assertion is certainly valid (there are a lot of married misogynists, and many of them for that matter are women) the inference really isn't.

[TheKassi]

Look, I believe the new Arizona law is racist. I believe that immigration law in general, at it's core, is racist. I believe in supporting the Arizona boycott. I even believe that American should be open to anyone who wants to live and work here, regardless of if they are even on a path to citizenship.

But the claim that wearing an American Flag on Cinco de Mayo is racist or provocative is flatly silly. If some stuffy old white guys were claiming that people who wear the Peurto Rican, Cuban, or Mexican flag on the Fourth of July was racist, they would be laughed at and mocked by the very people now claiming these boys were bigots.

They might even be called racist, which might be an accurate way to describe someone who is angered by someone else wearing their own flag on your nation's 'special day'.

I don't know what these boys were thinking, or if they had an agenda or not, but claiming their actions are proof of racism or antagonistic in any way shape or form is just wrong. Wearing your own flag on another nation's 'special day' is not antagonistic in any way shape or form. Nor is it rude.

Heck, didn't the school it's self fly an American Flag out front that very morning?

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Racism and sexism are not in my opinion easily comparable, and certainly not interchangeable in breezy analogies. While your assertion is certainly valid (there are a lot of married misogynists, and many of them for that matter are women) the inference really isn't.

So having "a Hispanic or Latina wife" (kind of like "my one gay friend" or "that black boss" really is a "get out of being accused being a bigot and/or of doing bigoted things" card?

No, racism and sexism are of course different, and absolutely not exclusive. As are many other forms of prejudice, institutional or not.

I still think it is totally valid to say that knowing/loving/being related to someone who doesn't have the same privileges you do is not some feat of magic that prevents you from ever doing or saying *ist things.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Look, I believe the new Arizona law is racist. I believe that immigration law in general, at it's core, is racist. I believe in supporting the Arizona boycott. I even believe that American should be open to anyone who wants to live and work here, regardless of if they are even on a path to citizenship.

But the claim that wearing an American Flag on Cinco de Mayo is racist or provocative is flatly silly. If some stuffy old white guys were claiming that people who wear the Peurto Rican, Cuban, or Mexican flag on the Fourth of July was racist, they would be laughed at and mocked by the very people now claiming these boys were bigots.

They might even be called racist, which might be an accurate way to describe someone who is angered by someone else wearing their own flag on your nation's 'special day'.

I don't know what these boys were thinking, or if they had an agenda or not, but claiming their actions are proof of racism or antagonistic in any way shape or form is just wrong. Wearing your own flag on another nation's 'special day' is not antagonistic in any way shape or form. Nor is it rude.

Heck, didn't the school it's self fly an American Flag out front that very morning?

When the flag-wearing happens in a country where 1) the US flag is tied to a celebration of a single ethnicity, 2) people of US heritage are and have been historically and are still currently disadvantaged, and 3) people of US heritage are a minority in the situation, I'm more than willing to consider the action racist. Undoubtedly provocative. Worthy of protecting the rights of the minority in the situation. I stumble on believing those conditions are met in most places, though.

Also, the school flies the flag every school day, unless it's drastically different to the ones I went to. Unless the boys wear flag shirts to school every day, that's a bit of a specious argument.

[Myshkin]

Very well, might you give an example of how to display an American flag in a non-racially charged manner on May 5th?

You could start by not gathering together a group of people to intentionally use the American flag to make a racially charged statement. Sure I have no proof that these kids did this to incite, but then I don't feel like I need any proof. This was not a group of kids who got together and decided to show their patriotism. Let's be honest with ourselves. This was a group of kids who got together and decided to try to demonstrate their superiority. And they used the American flag as a prop. Frankly all Americans should be offended by that.

To answer your question though, fly a flag, wear a flag, I don't care. Just so long as you're not using the flag to intentionally belittle another culture.

And again, I'm not saying these kids deserve to be punished; I'm saying these kids are douchebags, and most likely racist douchebags, and they deserve to be called racist douchebags.

[TheKassi]

When the flag-wearing happens in a country where 1) the US flag is tied to a celebration of a single ethnicity

When did the American flag get tide to a single ethnicity? I will concede that a lot of Americans, in a fit of chauvinist obtuseness, like to forget the immigrant and melting pot aspects of our heritage, and that more only extend that melting pot ideal to include the many pale peoples of Europe, but the last time I checked African and Hispanic Americans celebrated Independence day as eagerly as white people.

I think our black president even wears an American Flag pen.

I don't care what fit Patrick Buchanan occasionally throws. America is a nation of people come descendant of foreigners.

worthy of protecting the rights of the minority in the situation.

No one's rights are violated by a flag t-shirt, be it Mexican, American, Canadian, Cuban ect. Unless the kids were choking people with their shirts, this is outrageous.

Also, the school flies the flag every school day, unless it's drastically different to the ones I went to. Unless the boys wear flag shirts to school every day, that's a bit of a specious argument.

It points to the fact that flying an American flag on a particular date isn't considered racist or antagonistic. Yet it is not only assumed that this is uncharacteristic of these boys, with little to no evidence, but that their intention was to be intentionally racist or provocative.

If these kids release a statement saying something akin to “Well we felt illegal i” I will be more then happy to sign up with the “These boys are racist bastards” group. Assuming that is the case however is wrong. Just as wrong Americans raising a stink about non-American flags flying on their national holidays, and proclaiming that minorities want to kill America.

[Artas]

Reminds me of a Dutch school a few years ago where some students started wearing Dutch flags as a provocation of Muslim students. They were banned from doing so.

[Old Nan]

So having "a Hispanic or Latina wife" (kind of like "my one gay friend" or "that black boss" really is a "get out of being accused being a bigot and/or of doing bigoted things" card?

A "card?" Well, perhaps it a world in the conflict has escalated to a level where one side is using slurs like "racist douchebags" it is. In another it might not be, but still would be a factor to be considered in determining whether a person is amicable toward Hispanics, no? I mean, he could easily have killed her on sight.

No, racism and sexism are of course different, and absolutely not exclusive. As are many other forms of prejudice, institutional or not.

I still think it is totally valid to say that knowing/loving/being related to someone who doesn't have the same privileges you do is not some feat of magic that prevents you from ever doing or saying *ist things.

This is the sort of reductionism I was opposing. Can racism and sexism both be considered "forms of prejudice?" Sure, OK, but I see no use in making that consolidation except in attempting to equivocate between the two. A lot of feminists like to conflate "forms of prejudice" in a sort of attempt to climb onto the black man's bandwagon, since the feminist movement in its own right sort of puttered out in the early '80s, but that it's effective doesn't make the inherent assumptions of the equivocation true. The way men and women interact bears very few useful similarities to the way whites and Mexican-Americans interact.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

When did the American flag get tide to a single ethnicity? I will concede that a lot of Americans, in a fit of chauvinist obtuseness, like to forget the immigrant and melting pot aspects of our heritage, and that more only extend that melting pot ideal to include the many pale peoples of Europe, but the last time I checked African and Hispanic Americans celebrated Independence day as eagerly as white people.

That's the point I was trying to make with that condition. Technically the Mexican flag isn't tied to one ethnicity either, but many people, particularly in the US, and seemingly particularly white people in the US, treat it as such. I have yet to see that happen to the US flag.

[TheKassi]

That's the point I was trying to make with that condition. Technically the Mexican flag isn't tied to one ethnicity either, but many people, particularly in the US, and seemingly particularly white people in the US, treat it as such. I have yet to see that happen to the US flag.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. So you are telling me if I can establish that Mexican citizens tend to generalize Americans as Caucasian, that people either descendant from Americans or American citizens in Mexico suffer from some sort of discrimination (Such as perhaps the government seizing land from Americans, and the current difficulties American citizens have with such things even today) and that Americans living in Mexico are a minority, you will consider a Mexican wearing the Mexican flag in Mexico racist if they happen to do so on Pearl Harbor day?

I am pretty sure that wouldn't be difficult, but I am not asking for some form of mutual international sensitivity, much less to have other government protect the redneck applepious sensibilities of Americans overseas that find the American flag lacks prominent and exclusive display during unofficial American holidays.

I am saying that wearing a flag t-shirt isn't inherently bigoted or provocative, even if it happens to be a special day in another country. At worst it is irrationally chauvinistic, but that is true of a flag t-shirt any day of the week.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Old Nan,

Charles Carroll will be surprised to learn that he wasn't defined as American.

Of Carrollton? He's an ancestor. Who defined him as not "American"?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Myshkin,

You could start by not gathering together a group of people to intentionally use the American flag to make a racially charged statement. Sure I have no proof that these kids did this to incite, but then I don't feel like I need any proof. This was not a group of kids who got together and decided to show their patriotism. Let's be honest with ourselves. This was a group of kids who got together and decided to try to demonstrate their superiority. And they used the American flag as a prop. Frankly all Americans should be offended by that.

To answer your question though, fly a flag, wear a flag, I don't care. Just so long as you're not using the flag to intentionally belittle another culture.

And again, I'm not saying these kids deserve to be punished; I'm saying these kids are douchebags, and most likely racist douchebags, and they deserve to be called racist douchebags. [emphasis added]

So, people should be called racist douchebags and treated like racist douchebags upon your unfounded opinion? Really? You've admitted you have no proof to support your position other than your opinion these kids are "racist douchebags". I find that a tad troubling that you would hold such a firm position without proof and want these kids treated as pariahs based upon that opinion. We aren't talking about racist slurs, or tee shirts demanding the Mexicans in school go back to Mexico. We're talking about shirts patterned after the American Flag. The flag of the Nation everyone in that school currently inhabits, even on Cinco de Mayo. If a group of kids wore tee shirts declareing, "I love everybody" that didn't violate dress code but people suspected were some sort of ironic declaration of hate speech should they be treated as pariahs too? At some point the alleged hate speech is getting too subtle to be effective. When it is that subtle perhaps the better practice is to ignore it rather than give it too much attention?

If, as you say, these kids were attempting to be provocative and raise people hackles they chose a manner and method that was pretty inocous. While I can see why the Administrators did what they did I think it was a tremendous overreaction.

[Annelise]

ha, nice job trying to paint me as a bigot.

Not at all. I don't think being a part of the majority culture is inherently racist. This is why I didn't use the word racist. I think there are two sides, both with fundamentally understandable POVs. This makes it difficult to reconcile in the short term, IMO.

[Annelise]

And about Catholicism, how far back are we talking here.. the freaking birth of our nation? The whole Big Green Machine movement and the Irish flood? That's taking it pretty far back. We've come a long way since then.

Gotta head off to work but these patterns repeat.

[Paddy]

I am saying that wearing a flag t-shirt isn't inherently bigoted or provocative

If someone has expressed the opinion here that wearing a flag t-shirt is inherently bigoted or provocative, I have missed it. I've seen a lot people, other than yourself, express the opposite, however.

My take on what the people you seem to be in disagreement with are saying is that while it isn't inherently provocative, the context that we've been made aware of, in their opinion, makes it likely that they were trying to be provocative and that that the school was making an attempt to nullify that provocation. Whether or not they are being racist is more difficult to ascertain, but if one accepts that it was an attempt to be provocative then the provocation must have been trying to act on racial concerns. I think a lot of people would consider there to be no difference between that and being racist itself.

Me? I don't think I know enough about the whole situation to judge. I don't know how the boys behaved and I don't know what evidence there is for organisation other than the fact of them all wearing the flag. But in that case, I'm not willing to criticise the school either, seeing as they had all of that evidence to base their judgement on.

Of Carrollton? He's an ancestor. Who defined him as not "American"?

It was mentioned that at one time the term "American" had connotations which excluded Catholics from fitting under that definition. Carroll was mentioned as a counter-example.

So, people should be called racist douchebags and treated like racist douchebags upon your unfounded opinion? Really? You've admitted you have no proof to support your position other than your opinion these kids are "racist douchebags". I find that a tad troubling that you would hold such a firm position without proof and want these kids treated as pariahs based upon that opinion. We aren't talking about racist slurs, or tee shirts demanding the Mexicans in school go back to Mexico. We're talking about shirts patterned after the American Flag. The flag of the Nation everyone in that school currently inhabits, even on Cinco de Mayo. If a group of kids wore tee shirts declareing, "I love everybody" that didn't violate dress code but people suspected were some sort of ironic declaration of hate speech should they be treated as pariahs too? At some point the alleged hate speech is getting too subtle to be effective. When it is that subtle perhaps the better practice is to ignore it rather than give it too much attention?

I don't think that his opinion is unfounded, Scot. He says he hasn't proof, but there's evidence, and past a certain amount of evidence, the doubts are going to be outweighed.

That point is different for each individual of course, so Myshkin's standards for what is a racist douchebag are different from yours. So I'm not sure that you guys are going to gain much from arguing that point other than to acknowledge that your standards differ.

As to the rest of what you are saying, all I can say is that context matters.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Paddy, I agree that context matters. I've been arguing that in a similar thread on Kevin's Watch. My point here is that the context is largely unknown at this point. The message of hate is pretty subtle and without more information providing the context that makes wearing Shirts and bandanas with the American flag on them hate speech I'm going to say the school overreacted.

[Paddy]

I guess that where my reaction differs is that I think the school had much better knowledge of the context than we do, so I'm not willing to criticise their judgement yet, based on that.

[gomez]

What utter nonsense. I'm not much of a fan of wearing the Stars and Stripes outside of uniforms and such myself, but to demand its absence because it would offend Mexicans? Sporting your own flag in your own country is rude?

Well, it's not rude so much as desecration of the flag, actually. Ironic, really, how many people violate flag etiquette to show their love of America...

[Noontidal]

I don't even neccessarily think the students were being racists. They WERE being provocative douchebags though.

Racist within the context is a farce, Nationalist at worst. also, correcting the second part "They were provoking douchebags"

[sologdin]

I'm not much of a fan of wearing the Stars and Stripes outside of uniforms and such myself

the correct answer. the kids were plainly violating flag protocol; ergo, the claim that they were being patriotic is not credible. provocation is the only other explanation, although racism is, perhaps, not the only rationale for provocation.