Worst of the worst

[Nukelavee]

what the swan said about the sex...

Mandurang - it's not that it's there, or i mind explicit details (god knows, i couldn't have read as much Lustbader as i have if that were an issue)...it's that there is no artistry in it, it's part what the swan said, it's part like reading something that was drawn on a restroom wall.

i'm not saying i KNOW martin's mind, i just feel like i'm reading somebody writin dirty, cause it's what they like.

part of that? well, if i have to read once more about some chick with heavy breasts and the biggest nipples ever, truly, they were like Gregor Clegans thumbs!

well....

[Valmy]

3. Gratituous sex scenes. I am more of a fan of the old "show them kissing in bed and fade out" method of implying sex. I don't need the details. George is absolutely obsessed with talking about boners. Its ridiculous really.

Its hard to complain about too much since George has become my favorite writer behind Sanderson. I'll take the gratiutious sex over the gratiuoitous bathing scences, Mr. Jordan.

And most of them have really creepy contexts in the story as well. Tyrion and his prostitute, the really creepy scene where Dany's handmaiden woke up got her off and went back to sleep, Jaime and Cersei over their son's dead body. Ewwwwwww. The sex in these books is so very unsexy. Maybe that is intentional.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I don't think beginning to harness his magical ability, as you say, would be as big of a moment as when he actually is done harnessing it, with the help of the three-eyed crow.

Sure. But it's the logical climax for Bran's arc in ACOK, and GRRM skips it.

This is a pretty mild complaint, all things considered. I don't have a problem with a lot of things that other folks do; I think Cersei's characterization in AFFC is perfectly consistent with how she is in previous books, for example, and while the valonqar prophecy doesn't blow my mind or anything I don't have a problem with it. Typically my problem is with individual sentences that strike me as being poorly written, or annoying cliffhangers, not how the story has gone in general.

Oh, one other complaint: I think sometimes that it was a mistake to bring back unCat, but not for the reasons that I've normally heard. If GRRM had given the same storyline to Beric (which presumably was the original plan), then it would have been clear that this is a story about how "honest outlaws" go bad. But since Catelyn is such an unpopular character, a lot of people read the story as how Catelyn Stark was a bitch even though she was dead.

[Valmy]

4. The double standard when it comes to ambitious men and ambitious women in these books. But I'm not even going to bother getting into this, since no one seems to agree with me, and I'm just going to piss people off.

5. Some sexism, some misogyny (also won't go into detail about this. But I have huge problems with the way Cesei, Shae and Lysa Arryn are drawn and treated.)

I get that you are very sensitive to any negative portrayal of women but can it really be sexism and misogyny when there are so many completely heartless and monstrous male characters? Tywin, Gregor, LF, Vargo Hoat, Chett and I am just getting started. I mean those guys are unbelievably vile. Is that evidence of misandry or is there something about the way they are portrayed that you would like the female baddies to conform to (serious question)? Shae, and Cersei, and Lysa are not exactly sympathetic but they are supposed to be villains.

[Corto Maltese]

Hi guys, my first post. Sorry for my bad English.

I don't like how much of the story is predeterminated by prophecies, such as fate of Cersei and her kids, Dany's betrayals, etc.

Also, Brienne's arc in AFFC is major disappointment. And of course undead people.

[Valmy]

I don't like how much of the story is predeterminated by prophecies, such as fate of Cersei and her kids, Dany's betrayals, etc.

There are starting to be a lot of those aren't there?

Also, Brienne's arc in AFFC is major disappointment.

Was it? My expectations were not very high and it did get really interesting after a slow start. I did not really understand why she was a POV to begin with and we probably will not know until we find out where that plot is going.

[Corto Maltese]

There are starting to be a lot of those aren't there?

Kind of. Forgot to mention the most annoying one, Azor Ahai reborn... We still don't know for sure who is it going to be, but the whole concpet of big hero and savior is a bit lame to me.

Was it? My expectations were not very high and it did get really interesting after a slow start. I did not really understand why she was a POV to begin with and we probably will not know until we find out where that plot is going.

To be honest, it's been a while since my last reading of AFFC, but I clearly remember that her chapters were pretty boring... True enough, they become better as the plot "progressed", but I wouldn't call them really interesting in any way, only average by GRRM's standard.

[Mandurang]

what the swan said about the sex...

Mandurang - it's not that it's there, or i mind explicit details (god knows, i couldn't have read as much Lustbader as i have if that were an issue)...it's that there is no artistry in it, it's part what the swan said, it's part like reading something that was drawn on a restroom wall.

i'm not saying i KNOW martin's mind, i just feel like i'm reading somebody writin dirty, cause it's what they like.

part of that? well, if i have to read once more about some chick with heavy breasts and the biggest nipples ever, truly, they were like Gregor Clegans thumbs!

well....

It doesn't feel that way to me at all. I think most of that is an attempt to portray the sexual standards of the medieval-like society of Westeros, not any kinky preferences of the author. For instance, big breasts - sexy, small breasts - not sexy to most men, et cetera.

Sure. But it's the logical climax for Bran's arc in ACOK, and GRRM skips it.

This is a pretty mild complaint, all things considered. I don't have a problem with a lot of things that other folks do; I think Cersei's characterization in AFFC is perfectly consistent with how she is in previous books, for example, and while the valonqar prophecy doesn't blow my mind or anything I don't have a problem with it. Typically my problem is with individual sentences that strike me as being poorly written, or annoying cliffhangers, not how the story has gone in general.

Really? You've found sentences you think were poorly written? I'd like to read an example or two. I don't mean this in a bad way, I'm just curious - I happen to think this is the most well-written book, or series of books, that I've read lately in a genre that is notorious for bad writing. Personally, it has happened to me time and time again to read glowing reviews about a fantasy book (and sometimes by Martin himself), only to pick it up and be immediately disgusted by the poor writing, poor characterization, poor plot advancement, misplaced literary devices or figures of speech, or any number of other flaws. Some people do not mind the writing as long as the plot is okay, but I find a badly written book almost an affront, and I've yet to experience even the slightest twinge with aSoIaF. I think that review of aSoIaF that said something like "a work of fiction that single-handedly manages to elevate an entire genre to fine literature" is dead on.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

the worst thing would be if Martin had a heart attack or sth and series were never finished

i'd kill myself

[Hamster of Doom]

Don't mind the sex scenes - they usually give us an insight into a character, or into the relationship between two characters, so they don't feel gratuitous to me. And I rather like that they reflect a wide range of human sexual experiences, rather than the standard Hollywood athletic-coupling-of-two-perfect-bodies.

[Myrish swan]

Don't mind the sex scenes - they usually give us an insight into a character, or into the relationship between two characters, so they don't feel gratuitous to me. And I rather like that they reflect a wide range of human sexual experiences, rather than the standard Hollywood athletic-coupling-of-two-perfect-bodies.

Well, the women in these scenes are always hot with near perfect bodies.

The guys... not so much. Something that we see a lot of is highly unattractive men doing it with beautiful girls. Oh, and the bodies of these beautiful women are usually described with some detail.

This is really no big deal, nor is it one of the worst things about the series; however, it's worth at least pointing out.

And for the record, I agree with you about the sex scenes. I don't have any problems with the scenes themselves; only with the cliches and stock phrases that seem to crop up in most of them.

[Andeimir]

@Myrish swan:

If anything, there's misanthropy in the books, not misogyny. While I do think Martin portrays assertive women unfavorably (Even the cool viking chick Asha is written a tad cruel towards her childhood friend whose name escapes me, felt like he was substituting for Martin himself on my first read), he portrays many people as ugly, cruel and stupid, and all of those he doesn't suffer maims, deaths and various other tragedies. Excluding to a certain extent, perhaps, Jon and Dany.

Hell, even Tyrion has half of his nose chopped off.

He is indeed a tad more unfavorable towards the female characters, but it's hardly as if he spares the male ones or portrays them favorably, excluding those he identifies himself with, wishes himself to be or is simply attracted to.

Personally, I would've liked it had there been one healthy relationship amongst all the sex, rape, incest and so on. Had there been one 'ordinary' (read: not predestined to be a major badass hero) likeable character which doesn't end up ravaged by the circumstances it's put under. As much as I enjoyed the books and screamed like a school girl when I've read about ADwD, I don't think I can ever cherish the story as much as I do others which while are grim and gritty, still maintain, uhm... hope, in their essence. Martin is as bitter as Black Metal musicians can only be when they're in their early 20s, and as such, his writing often comes off as a little bit childish. I was quite surprised to find he's over 60 when I first googled him, I was expecting a younger author, having imagined him to be in his early 40s, and only that old due to Game of Thrones' publish date.

There, that's the worst of the worst. Needless to say, the books are of the most engrossing I've ever read and there are very few authors whom I've recommended as fervently to my friends as I have Martin.

P.S.

I suspect that how voyeurish the sex scenes felt to me contributed to my assumption of Martin's young age.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Only time i mind the sex scenes is when it's something that's creepy like Dany's scenes with Drogo or Jaime/Cersei. other then that i don't mind them.

[mormont]

Well, the women in these scenes are always hot with near perfect bodies.

The guys... not so much. Something that we see a lot of is highly unattractive men doing it with beautiful girls.

Other than Tyrion, I'm struggling to think of an example? Sam, I suppose... but other than being overweight, is Sam really 'highly unattractive'? And is Gilly really 'beautiful'? (For that matter, is Ygritte?)

In terms of males in sex scenes, that leaves Drogo, Jon and Jaime, all of whom are definitely considered 'hot with near perfect bodies'. Conversely, though it's arguably not a 'sex scene' as such, you have Jaime becoming aroused when bathing with Brienne - who is certainly considered unattractive, but whose body in that scene is still described in as much detail as that of Shae is in her sex scenes, for example. Probably more, now that I think of it.

I'm not saying that there is no element of voyeurism at all in how the sex scenes go, mind you, and no bias from GRRM as a heterosexual male. (The absence of a male/male scene has been commented on, for example, and I think that's a fair point to some degree.) But I do think he tries to write the scenes he thinks are necessary for the plot, rather than just the ones that turn him on.

[Mandurang]

Other than Tyrion, I'm struggling to think of an example? Sam, I suppose... but other than being overweight, is Sam really 'highly unattractive'? And is Gilly really 'beautiful'? (For that matter, is Ygritte?)

In terms of males in sex scenes, that leaves Drogo, Jon and Jaime, all of whom are definitely considered 'hot with near perfect bodies'. Conversely, though it's arguably not a 'sex scene' as such, you have Jaime becoming aroused when bathing with Brienne - who is certainly considered unattractive, but whose body in that scene is still described in as much detail as that of Shae is in her sex scenes, for example. Probably more, now that I think of it.

I'm not saying that there is no element of voyeurism at all in how the sex scenes go, mind you, and no bias from GRRM as a heterosexual male. (The absence of a male/male scene has been commented on, for example, and I think that's a fair point to some degree.) But I do think he tries to write the scenes he thinks are necessary for the plot, rather than just the ones that turn him on.

Very good points. I agree completely. I'll just qualify, under my own perspective, the degree to which saying there is a lack of a male/male sex scene is a fair point. I'm sure others have said so before, but it is related to the general absence of homosexual males in Westeros, which in turn can be understood, in noble families at least, by the necessity of producing heirs and, to a degree, their noble duty of personifying and embodying male virtue, a kind of masculine noblesse oblige. Other than Renly and Loras, we have... Lyn Corbray, who is a paedophile, and Septon Utt, who is another, though much more sinister... and I don't know who else? There has been talk of Brynden Tully being gay, but GRRM has refused to verify or disprove that assertion when asked specifically.

This is an interesting discussion, although tangent, so in passing I will mention that certain institutions in Westeros, like the Silent Sisters, the Night's Watch, the Kingsguard, and so on, are meant to among other things be parallels to real-world medieval institutions, like certain monastic orders for example, that provided to families and individuals a more-or-less convenient way of dealing with homosexuality, either of relatives or their own selves. In this way, the impression we form (of Westeros, at least) is that of a society where homosexuality isn't especially reviled or commonly accepted, an impression strengthened by the thoughts of the characters whose POVs are available, like Cersei, but in which nevertheless being openly gay isn't possible, especially if you are a member of a noble family.

[Nafro]

Lulz

[Lord Godric]

Two much Iorn Islands in the fourth book. Good stuff was had there, but I felt it brought the story down some. Well that and Brienne wandering around for half the book.

I agree with this. I really can't stand the Iron Islands storyline, and haven't been able to since Theon brought us there in aCoK. I just can't stand the characters and the plot has never been able to grab my attention like the rest of the story.

[Lord Godric]

Well, there's a lot of emphasis from Jojen in particular that Bran has to learn how to open his third eye. It's really Bran's personal arc for the book--he needs to learn how to begin to harness his magical ability, so that he can begin to fly. So because it's a big moment for him, we should be there to see it when it happens. It should be a climactic moment, like Dany waking the dragons on a smaller scale. And yet GRRM doesn't show us that moment. It's as if there was no birth-of-the-dragons chapter in AGOT, and we just cut back to Dany with the dragons in ACOK.

I guess the reason I don't see this as a problem is because I don't think Bran has opened his third eye. At least not entirely. Sure he can warg into Summer (and even Hodor) but he was warging long before he knew what the third eye really was. While Bran certainly got a better grasp on warging and the like in aCoK (and slightly more in aSoS) he's not reached that climax yet. He doesn't have the full ability that Jojen described one would have when opening their third eye (looking at a tree and see the acorn that it grew from and the stump it will later become). That is why he is traveling beyond the Wall. To meet the three-eyed crow and discover his true potential. That, I believe, will be the climax of Bran's story. Not the scenes where he was hiding in the Winterfell crypts.

[evanesco75]

I just feel we have far too many Iron Island POVs. Theon, Asha, Victarion and Damphair, really? Could've done with 2 of those.

The Undead are beoming a bit much for me, though reading a few opinions on UnCat's Revenge has placated me somewhat, because they sound quite intriguing.

Also, the unrelenting misery. Earlier, I almost gave up (circa RW). It's just that the books are so damned fantastic, the writing and characterization and plotting so top notch that I couldn't stop!

The Sueness of Jon and Dany irks me, but not overly so.

Prophecies? I could do without them.

That said, I think this series is one of the best I have ever read. On so many levels.

[Ealasaid]

Just to get back on topic, one other worst of the worst thing: I've said it before, but I'll say it again, it was a mistake to have the AFfC note explaining why some of the characters weren't in the novel at the end of the book. It should have been the foreword, so that people had an opportunity to digest that information right off rather than only gradually coming to realize it. I'm not sure whose idea it was to have it there at the end, the publisher's or George's, but it was an error by both parties either way.

Thank you. Yes, absolutely. And I am glad that you, Ran, have written that the note was a HUGE mistake.

Through that note, GRRM open the door to questions, comments and criticism. And when fans legitmately inquired on the basis of that note, they got flamed. On his blog, Neil Gaiman (one of my all time favorites) lambasted a fan, writing "George Martin is not your _itch."

The note at the end of A Feast for Crows and the subsequent noise and nastiness is the worst of the worst.