How does female inheritance work

[Eph]

During my current reread I've been confused by how inheritance works. On the one hand, it seems clear that women don't inherit lands and lordship.

At the same time, there are times when a woman either inherits land and title or her husband gains his wife's lands and titles - why don't they just go back through the family tree and find the male heir, even if it is a 4th cousin twice removed?

What is the law in the (Andal) kingdoms?

[Alexia]

During my current reread I've been confused by how inheritance works. On the one hand, it seems clear that women don't inherit lands and lordship.

Yes, they do. Sons are first in line to inherit their lands and lordships, by birth order. Then daughters. Then the next relative in line. Except in Dorne, where birth order reigns regardless of gender.

Winterfell: Robb - Bran - Rickon - Sansa - Arya

Riverrun: Edmure - Edmure's unborn child - Catelyn - Lysa - Catelyn's children (in order above) - Robert Arryn

Right now, Sansa is the heir to Winterfell and stands about two degrees away from Riverrun since everyone believes her brothers are dead. Cersei is the ruling lady of House Lannister because Jaime can't inherit and Tyrion is an attainted criminal. If Loras and Willas died, Margaery would be next in line for Highgarden. Lady Maege took control of House Mormont after her brother retired to the Night's Watch and Jorah fled for his life.

Here you go...

A man's eldest son was his heir. After that the next eldest son. Then the next, etc. Daughters were not considered while there was a living son, except in Dorne, where females had equal right of inheritance according to age.

After the sons, most would say that the eldest daughter is next in line. But there might be an argument from the dead man's brothers, say. Does a male sibling or a female child take precedence? Each side has a "claim."

[Daena the Defiant]

Riverrun: Edmure - Edmure's unborn child - Catelyn - Lysa - Catelyn's children (in order above) - Robert Arryn

Not quite:

• Edmure
  
• Edmure's child (male or female)
  
• Catelyn
  
• Catelyn's childen in order (Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya)
  
• Lysa
  
• Robert Arryn (Lysa's son)
  

Catelyn's children would be before Lysa herself. For that matter, hypothetically, if Jeyne Westerling was carrying Robb's child, that child would be added after Robb but before Bran, knocking Lysa and L'il Robb down a spot.

It's sorta like how with the birth of every child and grandchild, Princess Margaret was pushed further and further down the line of succession after her sister Queen Elizabeth.

Of course, as always, these claims are only worth as much as the the will and might to recognize and enforce them :)

If Loras and Willas died, Margaery would be next in line for Highgarden.

Actually, it would be Willas, Garlan, Garlan's unborn child, male or female (isn't Lady Leonette pregnant?), then Margaery.

Loras is exempt because of his oaths as a Kingsguard. I don't know how creating Garlan Lord of Brightwater would play out as to Highgarden. I wonder if the Tyrells specifically excised him and his offspring from the line of succession? It would be a shortsighted thing to do with Willas unmarried and this being a war and all.

[Blackfish Blues]

Not quite:

• Edmure
• Edmure's child (male or female)
• Catelyn
• Catelyn's childen in order (Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya)
• Lysa
• Robert Arryn (Lysa's son)

Thanks Daena, this is really informative, I had no idea it worked this way. Thankfully, you've blown out of the water all my fantasies about Brynden "Blackfish" Tully becoming Lord of Riverrun. Better cut it at the stem... no fanfic whatsoever, no, I know...

So, is Brynden after Robert Arryn in the line of succession to Riverrun? In fact, many of the people before him are dead, but I still wish the best to Edmure, even though I fear for him. Also, Cat's children will survive... at least some of them, I hope.

[Datepalm]

So, is Brynden after Robert Arryn in the line of succession to Riverrun?

I think so. Having exhausted every descendant of the current lord, we jump back a generation and start trying to exhaust the previous lords descendants.

[Alexia]

D'oh! Thank Daena...this is what happens when I come on the board tired. :)

Yes, Brynden is definitely after Robert Arryn. Actually, I think right now he is on his way to the Vale under the presumption that Sweetrobin is the current heir to Riverrun. Won't he be surprised to find Sansa there?

[Blackfish Blues]

Yes, Brynden is definitely after Robert Arryn. Actually, I think right now he is on his way to the Vale under the presumption that Sweetrobin is the current heir to Riverrun. Won't he be surprised to find Sansa there?

Ah, the big question! Just to refresh my own memory (not certainly the memory of the posters here, because many of them contributed to those other discussions too) there are at least two threads about it, which shows how intriguing it is:

Edmure Should Be Worried

Brynden is heading for Sansa!

Despite my compulsion to talk about Brynden, I'll leave him to those other threads and stick to female inheritance, that is Sansa. Let's see if I understand how the Stark-Tully situation works:

LIVING claimants to Riverrun:

Edmure

Edmure's child (male or female)

Bran

Rickon

Sansa

Arya

Robert Arryn

Brynden Tully

LIVING claimants to Winterfell (much more complicated!)

Jon Snow?

Robb's child?

Bran

Rickon

Sansa

Arya

Benjen Stark???

Supposing that:

1. Riverrun, the Vale and Winterfell are retaken and/or given back to the Starks and their supporters;

2. Edmure and his child die :(

3. Jon is NOT Robb's heir, or if he is he sticks to the Wall (or to the Targ throne - whole other story)

4. Bran chooses a spiritual life

5. Robb's child and Rickon are too small (that's a fact, not a supposition)

... then Sansa is at least regent for both Winterfell and Riverrun. Did I get it right?

I think that in this case ruling both castles would be logistically difficult for her. She would probably rule in Winterfell and name a regent for Riverrun (Brynden?).

Robert Arryn, if he's still alive (and if he's gone to boot camp), would by now be almost old enough to rule the Vale. If he dies too, does Sansa have THREE castles to juggle?

Actually I quite like that idea. (bangs mace on the table) Queen in the North! Er, no, wait.

[The hairy bear]

Thankfully, you've blown out of the water all my fantasies about Brynden "Blackfish" Tully becoming Lord of Riverrun. Better cut it at the stem... no fanfic whatsoever, no, I know...

I wouldn't call them fantasies. Cat and Lysa are dead, all of Cat's children are dead or presumed dead, and Robert Arryn is sickly and already Lord of the Vale. Right now, assuming the Tullys regain control of Riverrun, I think the Blackfish would come second in line after Edmure's unborn child.

... then Sansa is at least regent for both Winterfell and Riverrun. Did I get it right?

I think that in this case ruling both castles would be logistically difficult for her. She would probably rule in Winterfell and name a regent for Riverrun (Brynden?).

Robert Arryn, if he's still alive (and if he's gone to boot camp), would by now be almost old enough to rule the Vale. If he dies too, does Sansa have THREE castles to juggle?

Anecdotal evidence shows that in Westeros it is not traditional to combine holdings (George confirms it). So in this case Sansa (or the king) would have to choose which kingdom she would rule, and the others would go to the next in line.

For instance, by the end of AFFC Kevan Lanister has a good chance of being named the Lord of the Rock: with Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion out of the sucession line, Tommen as the King and Myrcella as a potential Lady of the Stormlands, the westerlands could go to the next in line (and that would be him).

[Alexia]

I wouldn't call them fantasies. Cat and Lysa are dead, all of Cat's children are dead or presumed dead, and Robert Arryn is sickly and already Lord of the Vale. Right now, assuming the Tullys regain control of Riverrun, I think the Blackfish would come second in line after Edmure's unborn child.

Well, Sansa is neither dead nor presumed dead. Cersei would have her killed if she caught her, but Cersei is in a prison cell and I don't think that killing her is in the interests of the new regime. The Tyrion problem is not unsurmountable, given that he's an attainted kinslayer on the run under penalty of death, and the marriage is not valid because her kin did not consent (Sansa is a minor) and it was not consummated. The Lannisters are going to lose that throne and they are the only ones with an interest in upholding the marriage...and with Tyrion gone, so goes their interest. This means that Robb's rationale for cutting her out of the inheritance line is not really valid anymore.

Now, there is a chance Brynden might try to displace her and Sweetrobin, but I don't think so. I believe that he wants to be a soldier, not a ruler. He's never married; he's never shown any interest in rule. I see him more as working to regain the Tully lands for the person he considers to be a legitimate heir...and he doesn't want to be said heir.

I also expect that Sansa will end the story as lady of either Riverrun or Winterfell at least. And I kind of expect that the Seven Kingdoms will splinter into nice little shards and Sansa will end up in control of one of the shards.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

5. Robb's child and Rickon are too small (that's a fact, not a supposition)

We don't know that there is any Robb's child, and the overwhelming evidence is actually that there isn't (Sybel's assurance to Tywin that she prevented it). But even so, the youth of those two would only be a practical barrier to reclaiming a shattered dominion, not a legal barrier in any sense. We have several examples of infant lords; Lady Hayford is still nursing...and so is Robert Arryn. :P

[Daena the Defiant]

... then Sansa is at least regent for both Winterfell and Riverrun. Did I get it right?

I think that in this case ruling both castles would be logistically difficult for her. She would probably rule in Winterfell and name a regent for Riverrun (Brynden?).

Yes, in Sansa converges the blood claims to some very major lands and castles. This is why she figures centrally in Littlefinger's plots :)

Just a quibble, though - she wouldn't be 'regent,' though. What she would be is called 'lady in her own right' (as opposed to lady by virtue of being married to the ruling lord), sometimes called a 'regnant lady,' or 'lady regnant.'

A regent is a different type of position. A regent is someone who stands in for the ruling lord (or lady) if that lord is a minor child, incapacitated or otherwise away from the lands and needs a day-to-day governor. Lysa was Lady Regent of the Vale for L'il Robert Arryn, the actual "lord" because he's still a child, Cersei is the Queen Regent for King Tommen, Catelyn was Lady Regent of the North for Ned, but stepped aside in favor of Robb when he was proclaimed King in the North.

[Daena the Defiant]

Thanks Daena, this is really informative, I had no idea it worked this way. Thankfully, you've blown out of the water all my fantasies about Brynden "Blackfish" Tully becoming Lord of Riverrun. Better cut it at the stem... no fanfic whatsoever, no, I know...

It is for this same reason that Cersei is now Lady of Casterly Rock, despite Tywin having a brother who is alive and well. After Cersei, technically come her children, then Kevan, then Kevan's children, then the (lawful) children of the dead Lannister brothers (Tygett, Gerion), then lastly to Genna Frey nee Lannister and *her* sons.

So, is Brynden after Robert Arryn in the line of succession to Riverrun? In fact, many of the people before him are dead, but I still wish the best to Edmure, even though I fear for him. Also, Cat's children will survive... at least some of them, I hope.

Well, if we were to follow strict agnatic primogeniture, then yes, Brynden comes after all of Hoster Tully's descendants (his children *and* grandchildren), but sometimes it was just more feasible for the dead lord's brother to assume the lordship than his daughter. If you have a situation where the heiress daughter is still a minor, then maybe her uncle who is left in loco parentis and in a regency capacity would find it to be in his interest to arrange a marriage for his niece far, far away ... if the heiress daughter can call upon her armsmen's loaylties and force her claim, or perhaps the forces of her husband (if any), or better yet, appeal to her father's overlord, then we're in business.

In fact, this is often how children of vassals becomes wards of the crown(or overlord). One of the reciprocal rights and obligations between a liege and vassal is that the liege will protect the rights and inheritances of his vassals' heirs should something befall the vassal, just as the vassal would be expected to pay homage fealty and scutage to the liege.

This is why 'Maid Marion' of Robin Hood fame was a ward of the crown. Her father was a vassal of King Richard who (in most versions of the tales) accompanied Richard on crusade where he was killed. Marion being a wealthy, nubile demoiselle was made a ward of the crown to prevent someone from kidnapping her and marrying her and claiming her property. It would befall upon the crown the duty of arranging a suitable match for her. Richard himself was absent due to a disastrous return from the Holy Land in which he ended up imprisoned, so his villainous brother Prince John assumed the throne and had designs on Marion (in most versions), if not for himself (he was already married, but his first marriage to Isabel of Gloucester was infertile), or at least to award her and her lands to a powerful supporter in his fight against Richard.

[Lord Varys]

Daena,

I'm not sure if the correct styling of relatives/kin of infantile Lords and Ladies is 'Regent'. 'Regent' really is a term attributed to the domains where actual ruling is involved. Neither Catelyn nor Lysa are referred to as Lady Regent's of the North/Vale, if I remember correctly.

And in AGoT the main focus of Ned's role is more on becoming the Lord Protector of the Realm then being the Regent. Either GRRM decided that the styling of Regent is more important in AFfC or it is more fitting for a female in that role to being styled as Queen Regent instead of Lord Protector of the Realm (which Cersei is also during Tommen's reign).

Lysa makes Littlefinger Lord Protector of the Realm, which means, in my opinion, that she transfers the lordly power of Robert Arryn (which she holds as his mother in his stead) from herself to Littlefinger.

So I really think all the 'Regents' of the infant Lords are actually properly styled 'Lord Protector of Castle X'.

[Daena the Defiant]

I'm not sure if the correct styling of relatives/kin of infantile Lords and Ladies is 'Regent'. 'Regent' really is a term attributed to the domains where actual ruling is involved. Neither Catelyn nor Lysa are referred to as Lady Regent's of the North/Vale, if I remember correctly.

Lysa Arryn is specifically referred to as regent by virtue of status as Jon's widow and Roberts other on page 340 of my hard copy of aFfC.

Catelyn was told to govern the North in Ned's stead by Ned. The legal term for that office would be 'regent.'

And in AGoT the main focus of Ned's role is more on becoming the Lord Protector of the Realm then being the Regent.

No, Ned was made Hand of the King (in essence, the chief minister of the king)and left *his* domains under the capable governance of his wife, in a regency capacity.

Either GRRM decided that the styling of Regent is more important in AFfC or it is more fitting for a female in that role to being styled as Queen Regent instead of Lord Protector of the Realm (which Cersei is also during Tommen's reign).

Or not :)

Lysa makes Littlefinger Lord Protector of the Realm, which means, in my opinion, that she transfers the lordly power of Robert Arryn (which she holds as his mother in his stead) from herself to Littlefinger.

Aye, she did that, which is in fact one of her prerogatives as Lady Regent. Bear in mind that medieval governance includes an unavoidable military function. Once Lysa married Petyr, she transferred to military governance of the Vale to her husband, as Lord Protector of the Eyrie, while she retained the status of Lady Regent of the Vale for herself. Petyr then promptly shoved her out the window and basically assumed the regency position himself. Unofficially, really, but there was no one to officially name him 'regent' (having killed the one person who could have).

So I really think all the 'Regents' of the infant Lords are actually properly styled 'Lord Protector of Castle X'.

They're not.

Both Winterfell and the Eyrie are the seats of overlord lieges. There could be both a Lord Protector of the actual castle/fief and a regent who has overall governance of the realm.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Lysa Arryn is specifically referred to as regent by virtue of status as Jon's widow and Roberts other on page 340 of my hard copy of aFfC.

Good catch. I was think LV had the right of it, since "regent" is a derivative of "rex" and so has specifically royal connotations, but GRRM seems to agree with you. Maybe it's a result of no lordly version of the word readily presenting itself.

[Lord Varys]

Well, I'm shutting up. But I still feel somewhat that the use of the term 'regent' is not really coherent during the whole series.

But it might be just a feeling not based on facts, as I just realized that Robert really named Ned 'Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm', so things seem to make sense, after all.

Widows who rule instead of their sons likely do not need to be styled 'Lady Regent of X' due to the fact that do actually bear the name of their dead husbands, and thus may draw more prestige from the fact of being Lady Stark or Lady Arryn than from the fact that they are stepping in for their infant sons.

On the other hand, the proper styling of such women may very well be Lady Regent of X, we just did not hear that as of yet, as no herald formally introduced us to either Lysa nor Catelyn while they hold said positions.

[Daena the Defiant]

Well, I'm shutting up. But I still feel somewhat that the use of the term 'regent' is not really coherent during the whole series.

I think we're actually talking about two things.

A regent rules the realm (that is, the kingdom essentially) if the the ruler is.. a minor/away etc...

It seems that a 'Lord Protector' is more of a position for just a fief, not a realm/kingdom. When dealing with Winterfell, or the Eyrie, it's actually two positions: 1) the ruler of all the lands sworn to that fiefdom (i.e., the North is sworn to Winterfell) and 2) the actual holder of the castle and estate of Winterfell (for example).

Bronn is the Lord Protector of Stokeworth because the actual regnant lady, Lollys is mentally handicapped. Stokeworth means the castle and its estate (and whatever ever petty vassals sworn to it, I guess). However, he's not a 'regent' because it's not a "realm" or "kingdom" to be governed.

But it might be just a feeling not based on facts, as I just realized that Robert really named Ned 'Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm', so things seem to make sense, after all.

Two positions that overlap, but need not do so - the Lord Protector is more of the military overseer and the Regent is the actually ruler - one person can hold both jobs, but in the case of Littlefinger and Lysa, it seems that she separated them out.

Widows who rule instead of their sons likely do not need to be styled 'Lady Regent of X' due to the fact that do actually bear the name of their dead husbands, and thus may draw more prestige from the fact of being Lady Stark or Lady Arryn than from the fact that they are stepping in for their infant sons.

That's not the issue. With both Lysa and Catelyn, they are stepping in for the husbands and minor children in the governance of entire kingdoms, because their husbands are feudal overlords who were kings in all but name, hence the 'regent' part. If Lysa was married to, I dunno, a Royce, she'd not be 'Lady Regent' of Runestone, she'd simply be the Lady Dowager, and may or may not have appointed a Lord Protector to oversee the demesne's military responsibilities. She could just have relied upon the master-of-arms, or a trusted household knight.

Tyrion fancies himself possibly becoming 'Lord Protector of Winterfell' because his wife, Sansa, was not yet of the age of majority (and is considered stupid). We don't know if he necessarily would have been styled 'Lord Regent' of the North.

[WinterBreeze]

I say this knowing the risk of oversimplifying things.

Not very well. :worried:

[Blackfish Blues]

I wouldn't call them fantasies. Cat and Lysa are dead, all of Cat's children are dead or presumed dead, and Robert Arryn is sickly and already Lord of the Vale. Right now, assuming the Tullys regain control of Riverrun, I think the Blackfish would come second in line after Edmure's unborn child.

Thanks, so I'm not entirely crazy after all. :drunk: Taking into consideration also Alexia's objections below, I've amended my views to Brynden possibly controlling unofficially Riverrun until the status of the Stark children is clearer and/or Edmure's heir is born and able to rule. I think that's what he was already doing when he was defending Riverrun against the Lannisters/Freys.

Anecdotal evidence shows that in Westeros it is not traditional to combine holdings (George confirms it). So in this case Sansa (or the king) would have to choose which kingdom she would rule, and the others would go to the next in line.

That's good to know, it clears a lot of my confusion about Sansa's possible roles in the future.

Well, Sansa is neither dead nor presumed dead. Cersei would have her killed if she caught her, but Cersei is in a prison cell and I don't think that killing her is in the interests of the new regime. The Tyrion problem is not unsurmountable, given that he's an attainted kinslayer on the run under penalty of death, and the marriage is not valid because her kin did not consent (Sansa is a minor) and it was not consummated. The Lannisters are going to lose that throne and they are the only ones with an interest in upholding the marriage...and with Tyrion gone, so goes their interest. This means that Robb's rationale for cutting her out of the inheritance line is not really valid anymore.

Now, there is a chance Brynden might try to displace her and Sweetrobin, but I don't think so. I believe that he wants to be a soldier, not a ruler. He's never married; he's never shown any interest in rule. I see him more as working to regain the Tully lands for the person he considers to be a legitimate heir...and he doesn't want to be said heir.

My view too, see above. Although it would be an intriguing reversal of tropes, not to mention exceptional bad luck for Brynden, if - through the death of his relatives or their inability to rule - he, as an old man and inexperienced in politics, ended up as official heir of Riverrun.

I also expect that Sansa will end the story as lady of either Riverrun or Winterfell at least. And I kind of expect that the Seven Kingdoms will splinter into nice little shards and Sansa will end up in control of one of the shards.

I, too, see Sansa regaining Winterfell; now that you say it, I also like the idea of her ruling Riverrun as a new Catelyn (hopefully with better luck). But I also envision a future in which Daenerys regains Westeros and Sansa is granted protectorship (?) of the North, as part of the Kingdom but somewhat autonomous.

We don't know that there is any Robb's child, and the overwhelming evidence is actually that there isn't (Sybel's assurance to Tywin that she prevented it). But even so, the youth of those two would only be a practical barrier to reclaiming a shattered dominion, not a legal barrier in any sense. We have several examples of infant lords; Lady Hayford is still nursing...and so is Robert Arryn. :P

Hehe! Actually I expressed myself badly, I meant it was a fact that they would be too small, not that Robb indeed had a child. Good distinction between legal and practical; from a practical point of view, they would still need someone to rule in their stead until they are older.

Yes, in Sansa converges the blood claims to some very major lands and castles. This is why she figures centrally in Littlefinger's plots :)

Just a quibble, though - she wouldn't be 'regent,' though. What she would be is called 'lady in her own right' (as opposed to lady by virtue of being married to the ruling lord), sometimes called a 'regnant lady,' or 'lady regnant.'

A regent is a different type of position. A regent is someone who stands in for the ruling lord (or lady) if that lord is a minor child, incapacitated or otherwise away from the lands and needs a day-to-day governor. Lysa was Lady Regent of the Vale for L'il Robert Arryn, the actual "lord" because he's still a child, Cersei is the Queen Regent for King Tommen, Catelyn was Lady Regent of the North for Ned, but stepped aside in favor of Robb when he was proclaimed King in the North.

Very informative discussion about regents, Lords Protectors etc. But isn't a "lady in her own right" someone who gets to rule by direct inheritance, rather than in place of someone else? I'm thinking of Maege Mormont, Lady of Bear Island after her brother and her nephew took themselves out of the equation. (Jeor Mormont, AGOT: "... my sister Maege rules Bear Island now, since my son's dishonor." Which rules out matrilinearity in Bear Island, and I don't know whether there are examples of it in Westeros or beyond.)

[Daena the Defiant]

Very informative discussion about regents, Lords Protectors etc. But isn't a "lady in her own right" someone who gets to rule by direct inheritance, rather than in place of someone else? I'm thinking of Maege Mormont, Lady of Bear Island after her brother and her nephew took themselves out of the equation. (Jeor Mormont, AGOT: "... my sister Maege rules Bear Island now, since my son's dishonor." Which rules out matrilineality in Bear Island, and I don't know whether there are examples of it in Westeros or beyond.)

But Sansa would be "lady in her own right" via direct inheritance? She would inherit directly as the surviving heir of her brother, the last regnant lord. Cersei is Lady of Casterly Rock in her own right, having inherited, and not because she's married to its lord (Catelyn was "Lady of Winterfell," but only because she was the wife of the lord).

The "lady in her own right" (or "queen in her own right" or "duchess in her own right") is just a term to designate that the woman in question is the actual title-holder and not the spouse of the title holder. Another term for this is "regnant lady," or "ruling lady" etc.

It does not require matrimonial inheritance for for a lady to be lady in her own right.

Queen Elizabeth II is "queen in her own right," her mother, also Queen Elizabeth, was queen by virtue of her marriage to the king.