The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

[Dragonfish]

Pacific Viking: "Parris doesn't think it is likely and she might have some 'inside info.'"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Parris said that didn't she phrase it in the form of a question? As in something like "Do you really think George would do something that obvious?" I only ask because, if so, then that seems to me to be a classic way of evading the issue. Notice that she herself never actually states her beliefs about the theory, she just asks a suggestive question and lets the listener infer (perhaps incorrectly) that she herself does not believe in it. If this is indeed the way she phrased it, then to me this only bolsters R+L=J rather than refuting it.

P.S.-perhaps I should ask this in the Small Questions Thread, but how exactly does one quote properly?

[nim]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but is the general consensus that Lyanna actually loved Rhaegar, or is it thought that she was raped and everything was against her will?

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but is the general consensus that Lyanna actually loved Rhaegar, or is it thought that she was raped and everything was against her will?

The story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is fairly solid evidence that there was at the very least a romantic element to their relationship.

[Edward the Great]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but is the general consensus that Lyanna actually loved Rhaegar, or is it thought that she was raped and everything was against her will?

The consensus is that they were married. This, however, does not make their marriage indisputably legitimate.

[nim]

Yea, I had assumed from reading this thread that there was a romance, but then it's sort of confusing - why didn't Lyanna just tell everyone that she didn't want to marry Robert? She was betrothed to him - that's pretty nasty business to go and then start having a romance with the prince. Doesn't sound like Stark behavior?

Edit: NM, just found the thread: Did Raeghar kiddnap Lyanna? :)

[Edward the Great]

Yea, I had assumed from reading this thread that there was a romance, but then it's sort of confusing - why didn't Lyanna just tell everyone that she didn't want to marry Robert? She was betrothed to him - that's pretty nasty business to go and then start having a romance with the prince. Doesn't sound like Stark behavior?

It doesn't sound like Ned Stark behavior. I don't see any reason to think that there is any standard "Stark" trait throughout history other than being innately Spartan in their worldly desires. Lyanna was denied the privilege of carrying a sword but Ned hired an instructor for Arya.

[nevermore]

jon doesn't need dragons to be targ, or maybe the prophecy had nothing to do with dragons at all. R + L = J still seems likely. also i think Rhaegar planned to sneak with her and knew what would happen, he was always melancholic and maybe it was because he knew the sacrifice he had to make.

[Whatever]

Though I find this last notion (5) to be a bit of a stretch, though possible.

Which notion? Arya being a dragon's head? Why?

BTW, amazing post :D

[PacificViking]

Which notion? Arya being a dragon's head? Why?

BTW, amazing post :D

Thanks Whatever, the notion that any of Ned and Cat's children other than Jon end up as one of the heads. Like I said, however, if any of them do I would wager on Arya for two reasons.

1. (aside from her obvious Warg potential) She and Jon share a significant bond, while Robb obviously loved and respected Jon (he would have to in order to name him his heir even with Bran and Rickon believed to be dead), Jon seems to have been most closely bonded with Arya, the only sibling who doesn't give his station as a bastard a second thought. Arya almost always refers to Jon as "My Brother" not "My Half-brother."

2. Now correct me if I have mistakenly remembered who said this but I believe it was Ned who said to Arya when speaking of her future, that she would marry a king and give birth to princes. To which she replied "No that's Sansa"

I'm not claiming that Eddard was speaking prophetically, and have said myself I find this scenario a bit of a stretch, however it could be a nice piece of subtle foreshadowing by Martin.

During my first read through of the series, as Gendry proved himself kind and to be a man of honor, I thought it might mean that he ended up on the Iron Throne and that Arya would become his queen, but I don't know if I can say that I believe that to be likely after reading AFFC and my subsequent second re-reading of the released four.

The reason I find any of the Other Starks a stretch and specifically Arya is that this cousin/cousin relationship seems is more repellent to me than the Aunt/Nephew relationship due to its, for lack of a better term "Emotional Incest" qualities. Arya and Jon having grown up believing each other to be (half)siblings.

*Edit* - One other thing

While I find is less likely than Arya the Stark I see as having the second highest chance at joining Jon as a head is Bran. Bran by the time we see him next should be well into his Jedi Training having gone North of the Wall with Cold Hands (anyone else think this has a strong possibility of being Benjen or if not him than at least one of the offspring/descendants of the Stark who wed an Other?.

Bran will be end up being the most accomplished Warg we see in the series I have no doubt, and this ability makes him a prime candidate to ride one of the Dragons.

[Drezin]

I've read a lot of people saying that this whole Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon theory can't be true because it's "too obvious." Did that many people really come up with this idea on their own, because I sure as hell didn't. After reading the books twice, there doesn't seem to be anything "obvious" that points to this theory. Sure, it looks that way after pages of discussion, but I doubt that many people came to this idea on their own. And, I don't consider myself a dim reader. I've read (and understood) a lot of literature more difficult than ASoIaF.

Also, is there a FAQ that examines all the textual evidence that validates (or invalidates) this theory? Inferences and theories are fun to make, but, in the end, one can only truly go by what the text says.

Personally, I think it's an awesome idea.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

To be honest, I think the theory that Ned and Ashara are Jon's parents is much more "obvious." Jon is referred to as Ned's son over and over again, and GRRM mentions some kind of romantic link between Ned and Ashara on multiple occasions. The case for R + L = J is stronger, but GRRM disguises the evidence in various ways so that most people don't notice it.

[Drezin]

Who's Ashara again? It's been years since I've read all four books, and I've just started re-reading AGoT in preparation for the HBO series.

And, to make another comment, I think it's more fun to believe the R + L = J theory rather than the Ned and Ashara one (even though Ashara escapes me mind at the moment, lol). It's just more "epic."

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Who's Ashara again?

The wiki entry for Ashara Dayne.

[George Snow]

Thanks Whatever, the notion that any of Ned and Cat's children other than Jon end up as one of the heads. Like I said, however, if any of them do I would wager on Arya for two reasons.

While I don't think that Arya will be a dragon head, I do think she will meet up with Jon (and probably in the area of the wall). On a re-read, I remember a bit of foreshadowing right as Jon and Arya go their separate ways.

GH

[Ecthelion]

Re-reading GOT in preparation for the show, and something stuck out to me this time.

When Tyrion and Jon are riding for the Wall, there's a scene where Tyrion is "studying" Jon, and remarks to himself how much he has the "Stark" features - as opposed to Robb et al - and thinks, "Whoever his mother had been, she had little of herself in her son".

I realize that the quote can certainly be championed by both proponents and opponents of R+L=J, but as a proponent of the theory it stood out to me. Just another of those little GRRM quips which, if you know the "truth" could potentially make one smile, as of course, if his mother was Lyanna, then we know Tyrion has it backwards, as his mother did in fact give quite a bit of herself to her son, and it was his father who had left little (appearance wise anyways).

Furthermore, I also feel that while by this point the R+L=J theory can be considered quite obvious, I think a large portion of that is a byproduct of the delays in release of the subsequent books. If these novels came out 1 per year, we as fans would have had much less time to obsess over theories such as this. I think GRRM had the idea in his head from the beginning, and while he didnt set out to make it obvious, in the past few years we have all had far more time than he ever intended for us to analyze the merits and issues with such things.

IIRC, doesnt GRRM refuse to visit fansites like this because he is afraid that our ideas, opinions, and theories could unduly influence his future writings? I, for one, would certainly hope that if he had R+L=J in mind from the beginning he wouldn't change that simply because we had enough time to unlock the secret before he had the chance to tell us.

[Dr. Acula]

Furthermore, I also feel that while by this point the R+L=J theory can be considered quite obvious, I think a large portion of that is a byproduct of the delays in release of the subsequent books. If these novels came out 1 per year, we as fans would have had much less time to obsess over theories such as this. I think GRRM had the idea in his head from the beginning, and while he didnt set out to make it obvious, in the past few years we have all had far more time than he ever intended for us to analyze the merits and issues with such things.

Also a lot of the clues are from AGOT which was written before forums like this were widely used or maybe even existed. GRRM wouldn't have known that fans from around the world would be able to discuss every small detail of the series so easily. The clues are subtle enough that most people wouldn't notice.

[nevermore]

To be honest, I think the theory that Ned and Ashara are Jon's parents is much more "obvious." Jon is referred to as Ned's son over and over again, and GRRM mentions some kind of romantic link between Ned and Ashara on multiple occasions. The case for R + L = J is stronger, but GRRM disguises the evidence in various ways so that most people don't notice it.

maybe that's a way of covering Jon's identity like you said, its very subtle but Ned never refers to him as his child. But others always said he was his fathers son, so that was the distraction that caused everyone to believe he was the son ( it took me 3 re-reads of the series before i thought to ask myself who was the baby Lyanna was holding when Daenerys was in that house of dust, also the way Rhaegar was protrayed as honourable struck me as odd for a rapist and kidnapper and also Ned being such a correct man, it didn't make sense he would sleep with another women) and once i came across this board my suspicions were realised and everything just fell into slot. it just makes more sense that Jon is more than the bastard of Ned to me.

[Drezin]

Furthermore, I also feel that while by this point the R+L=J theory can be considered quite obvious, I think a large portion of that is a byproduct of the delays in release of the subsequent books. If these novels came out 1 per year, we as fans would have had much less time to obsess over theories such as this. I think GRRM had the idea in his head from the beginning, and while he didnt set out to make it obvious, in the past few years we have all had far more time than he ever intended for us to analyze the merits and issues with such things.

IIRC, doesnt GRRM refuse to visit fansites like this because he is afraid that our ideas, opinions, and theories could unduly influence his future writings? I, for one, would certainly hope that if he had R+L=J in mind from the beginning he wouldn't change that simply because we had enough time to unlock the secret before he had the chance to tell us.

Yes. Once the theory is known, everything sticks out at you while you're reading and it's almost like, how could I have not seen that? Plus, the comment on the time between books is a good point, also.

I think Martin's policy of not visiting web forums (if this is something he sticks to) is a very good one. I have no doubt that it would influence his writing, and hopefully he doesn't change what may have been his plan (i.e., R+L=J) just so it's a surprise to fans. Plus, hopefully he realizes that only a minority will get online and discuss these books--most just read them, probably once, and move on.

I will say this, though. If Martin wasn't planning on the R+L=J thing and what he was planning is more mundane, such as Ned an Ashara being his parents, and he sticks to it, there's going to be a lot of disappointed fans, unfortunately. I don't think I'll be one--I've learned not to even try and guess where the ASoIaF will go.

[Whatever]

Also a lot of the clues are from AGOT which was written before forums like this were widely used or maybe even existed. GRRM wouldn't have known that fans from around the world would be able to discuss every small detail of the series so easily. The clues are subtle enough that most people wouldn't notice.

Once the theory is known, everything sticks out at you while you're reading and it's almost like, how could I have not seen that?

the comment on the time between books is a good point, also.

I think Martin's policy of not visiting web forums is a very good one. I have no doubt that it would influence his writing, and hopefully he doesn't change what may have been his plan

I will say this, though. If Martin wasn't planning on the R+L=J thing and what he was planning is more mundane, such as Ned an Ashara being his parents, and he sticks to it, there's going to be a lot of disappointed fans, unfortunately. I don't think I'll be one--I've learned not to even try and guess where the ASoIaF will go.

I agree. If A+N=D, i will be a disappointed fan, but mainly because i'll have this doubt ..something like an annoying voice in my head whispering "hei, maybe this wasn't Martin's original plan". Still, i do hope he won't change his plans for any of us.

(And i don't see GRRM being that childlish!!)

Also, i can't understand this "OMG, it's so obvious" attitude. I didn' figure out R+L=J on my own, mainly because i didn't have time enough to elaborate and because i read all of the books subsequently. I was starting to think there was something weird about Lyanna, but i couldn't resist the internet, so here i am. The first time i heard about this theory i though something like "wow, this is a really subtle way to put it". Now, thanks to the endless rereads and to many forums, i think it is quite obvious, but i still remember how i felt the first time. This is why i sustain R+L=J. It's no obvious, it's simply ingenious.

When Tyrion and Jon are riding for the Wall, there's a scene where Tyrion is "studying" Jon, and remarks to himself how much he has the "Stark" features - as opposed to Robb et al - and thinks, "Whoever his mother had been, she had little of herself in her son".

I realize that the quote can certainly be championed by both proponents and opponents of R+L=J, but as a proponent of the theory it stood out to me. Just another of those little GRRM quips which, if you know the "truth" could potentially make one smile, as of course, if his mother was Lyanna, then we know Tyrion has it backwards, as his mother did in fact give quite a bit of herself to her son, and it was his father who had left little (appearance wise anyways).

During my firs re-read i noticed the same thing. I love these subtle, ironic hints (Littlefinger complaining about the 5-years gap etc) and i think this quote could be a pair with robert's line about kings hidden under the snow. Of course, neither robert or tyrion has reason to come up with R+L=J .. but GRRM does. And this is very GRRM-style to me.

Thanks Whatever, the notion that any of Ned and Cat's children other than Jon end up as one of the heads. Like I said, however, if any of them do I would wager on Arya for two reasons.

1. (aside from her obvious Warg potential) She and Jon share a significant bond, while Robb obviously loved and respected Jon (he would have to in order to name him his heir even with Bran and Rickon believed to be dead), Jon seems to have been most closely bonded with Arya, the only sibling who doesn't give his station as a bastard a second thought. Arya almost always refers to Jon as "My Brother" not "My Half-brother."

2. Now correct me if I have mistakenly remembered who said this but I believe it was Ned who said to Arya when speaking of her future, that she would marry a king and give birth to princes. To which she replied "No that's Sansa"

I'm not claiming that Eddard was speaking prophetically, and have said myself I find this scenario a bit of a stretch, however it could be a nice piece of subtle foreshadowing by Martin.

During my first read through of the series, as Gendry proved himself kind and to be a man of honor, I thought it might mean that he ended up on the Iron Throne and that Arya would become his queen, but I don't know if I can say that I believe that to be likely after reading AFFC and my subsequent second re-reading of the released four.

The reason I find any of the Other Starks a stretch and specifically Arya is that this cousin/cousin relationship seems is more repellent to me than the Aunt/Nephew relationship due to its, for lack of a better term "Emotional Incest" qualities. Arya and Jon having grown up believing each other to be (half)siblings.

Ok, now i get your point.

All of this is under spoiler because is a loooong paragraph :)

No spoiler at all, just a reply to your post

Spoiler

Actually, i have to admit that i'm an huge fan of an hypotetic Jon&Arya affair.

I've always thought they have a weird relationship (expecially on arya's part) that i've always compared to the cersei&jaime one.. without the incest part (not yet?). As you said, they share a close bound and their behaviors/thoughts are beyond a simpler brother-sister relation.

Also, i do not count a relationship between cousins as incest. In westeros -and in the united states! - it's a common thing (not in the US - in westeros only!!). Tywin married her cousin. There also are talks of Sweetrobin marrying sansa (or arya, as the hound says). This is not a big deal.

Of course, they grew up together as siblings. Ned - for instance - would never allowed a such thing.

But my point here is - they don't are together anymore. The Emotional Incest (good term!) is gone. They are apart, growing up, and i suspect that when (if, but it's a when to me :crossedfinger:) they will meet each other again, they will be almost stranger to each other. So i think something could happen - again, on arya's part. I can see her thinking on jon like the only person left from her previous life. In this context, a kind of relationship is possible. Not very likely, but possible.

BTW, even if nothing like this will happen, i'm 100% sure that jon is arya's last hope to having her humanity back. She is becoming "no one", giving up all of herself, and i really do not want this to happen. But she didn't throw away needle, after all... im still hoping to have arya back.

(2. i noticed that ned's line too. it would be one of martin's subtle clues :D)

last thing: even if r+L is not equal to J, and arya and jon are still halfsiblings... well, i'd hope for this to happen anyway. Maybe it's just me, but i can't see incest as a Very Bad Thing. (Actually, I know a girl who dated her mom's son for a something like ten months. They didn't seen each other since she was 3 and then they liked each other. What is the problem?)

[Shakey]

Yes. Once the theory is known, everything sticks out at you while you're reading and it's almost like, how could I have not seen that? Plus, the comment on the time between books is a good point, also.

I think Martin's policy of not visiting web forums (if this is something he sticks to) is a very good one. I have no doubt that it would influence his writing, and hopefully he doesn't change what may have been his plan (i.e., R+L=J) just so it's a surprise to fans. Plus, hopefully he realizes that only a minority will get online and discuss these books--most just read them, probably once, and move on.

I also didn't discover R+L=Jon on my own. And even though it's "obvious" in hindsight, I also agree that part of the "problem" is over analysis due to the long gap between books. And I also hope he doesn't change it. Future readers will enjoy the same puzzle.

It must take some real will power for Martin to NOT read forums about his work. Feedback to an artist is like candy.

It's such a rewarding puzzle! :D