The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

[Shabadoo]

Could also be that one of the Kingsgaurd spoke the name in their discussion before/during the battle.

[SFDanny]

Could also be that one of the Kingsgaurd spoke the name in their discussion before/during the battle.

Kind of a strange thing to say during a fight, but sure it's possible if there is more words exchanged between the two sides than Ned recounts in his dream. I'd stick with whoever is there with Howland when they find Ned as my first guess, however.

[Manderly`s Personal Chef]

Oh, come on guys. Until GRRM doesn`t tell us who Jon`s parents really are, we can say that he is a son of a whore in Asshai, who by some miracle crossed paths with Eddard. Well, that might be what really happened...

[Whatever]

Oh, come on guys. Until GRRM doesn`t tell us who Jon`s parents really are, we can say that he is a son of a whore in Asshai, who by some miracle crossed paths with Eddard. Well, that might be what really happened...

that would be cool :D

OMG, i never realized before "the non reed part of THEY who found him holding lya's body" ..they = more than one. wow

[Edward the Great]

My own suspicion is that "they" are people from the big ass army that Ned left behind to go to the Tower of Joy with a mere 6 banner-men from the North. I would also suspect that baby Jon was no longer at the Tower when "they" arrived. It would have aroused suspicion if Howland was not with Ned when "they" arrived, so the obvious inference is that someone else must have been at the Tower to take Jon to Starfall.

It's inevitable that a lot of people would start showing up at the Tower, wondering what had happened to Ned. To keep Jon's parentage a secret two things must have been done before Ned woke up - hide Jon and hide the bloody bedclothes.

[ioang]

I'm pretty sure it's been said, but the concept of "strong blood" clearly exists in this world (Baratheon), and the Targaryen worry about keeping their blood pure by incestous marriage could easily reflect that their blood was "weak."

This might explain Jon's lack of Dragon dreams or Targaryen features.

A bit of a weak explanation perhaps but we're clutching at straws aren't we? The theory fits very well, all apart from the fact he hasn't got a hint of Targaryen in him.

[Lady Winter Rose]

The theory fits very well, all apart from the fact he hasn't got a hint of Targaryen in him.

This is weak. Why Jon has hint of her mother, as well (if Ned is Jon's father)?

Dragon dreams mean nothing.

Tyrion has them as well. That doesn't make him Targ.

Why doesn't make him Targ? Because that dreams show that Tyrion is unloved, unrespected and is scared by his sister, peers and maids. It is sad part of story, not hint.

[ioang]

This is weak. Why Jon has hint of her mother, as well (if Ned is Jon's father)?

Dragon dreams mean nothing.

Tyrion has them as well. That doesn't make him Targ.

Why doesn't make him Targ? Because that dreams show that Tyrion is unloved, unrespected and is scared by his sister, peers and maids. It is sad part of story, not hint.

Except this isn't real life, this is literary fiction. Therefore dreams and blood have real meaning and should be ignored at our peril, I think.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Except this isn't real life, this is literary fiction. Therefore dreams and blood have real meaning and should be ignored at our peril, I think.

I'm sure that dreams have real meaning. Tyrion's dragon dreams really mean that he hates his family and wants to escape them, to be powerful, soar over everybody else, etc. Sam's dream of the Night's Watch gathering in Horn Hill for a mighty feast really means that he wants to get the hell out of the haunted forest. But just because a dream has "real meaning", that doesn't mean that a dream is in any way supernatural.

[Lord of Autumn's End]

1. Jon is a Stark, if you don't get that by now I don't know how not.

2. Jon has a Wolf Sword, a Pet Wolf, Wolf Dreams, the Wolf temper and a Wolf personality. He is a Stark to such an extent he out-Starks the rest of the Stark children (though not by much when it comes to Arya/Bran).

3. The only debate is which parent he gets it from.

4. Jon will not become a Targayen, he will not become rider of any kind of dragon.

5. Why? Because he has Ghost already, what is he ment to do, hang Ghost in a harness from the bottom of the Dragon?

6. Because he has Longclaw and he wants to become a swordsmen worthy of his sword. All 3 of thoose plot points are rendered mute by Jon soaring around on the back of a Dragon.

7. Also I am fairly sure Bran of all people would know the difference between a winged snake and a Valryian Dragon.

1. Jon is a Stark by one side. He is (presumably) something else by the other side.

2. The fact that Jon has several Wolf/Stark characteristics is in no way evidence for who his other parent might have been.

3. The Stark one.

4. If Jon already is a Targaryen, he would not be becoming one, simply discovering it. You do not know whether he will or will not become one of the riders.

5. The fact that Jon has a Direwolf pet/companion is not even remotely proof that he will not become a Dragon Rider. Your argument is 'Well he has one animal companion. We all know its not possible he ever has another.' You do realise that Ghost spends most of his time while outdoors ranging far away from everyone else? He doesn't keep pace by Jon's side like they've been accidentally glued together.

6. Yes, swordsmen cannot ride dragons, that would be...

Oh wait, forgot about Aegon the Conqueror. And his sisters. And Maegor I (presumably). As well as an unknown number of other princes of the Targaryen blood pre-Aegon III.

7. Yeah, one can breathe fire. Not quite sure why that's relevant though.

Jaime saw Jon in Winterfell (and many others that knew Rhaegar well). And he was not the only one. There was not a single hint there that Jon in any way resembled Rhaegar or any Targ.

People see what they expect to see. Let's say Rhaegar's dominant facial features (apart from hair colour and eyes) are thin cheekbones, a narrow jawline and thin eyebrows. Assume Jon inherited all three such features. Jaime, who was never introduced to Jon and would have only seen him in passing from a certain distance, is not going to say "I do say, that young Stark bastard over there bears quite the resemblance to Rhaegar Targaryen".

That said, I very much doubt that Jon's appearance is going to turn out to be some kind of "It was written on his face all along" sort of clue, but it could be possible.

I think these are good points. I think too few readers look at the story/character arcs and how those things are coming along. Those factors are huge.

They are not good points. Xanrn is equating a couple of Jon's qualities, not all of which are even related to the fact that he's a Stark, as proof that Jon will not turn out to be either a Targaryen or a player in the 'three heads' prophecy. While R+L=J is only a theory at this stage, the three strongest and most developed characters so far are Dany, Tyrion and Jon. The character arcs themselves suggest that these three people will perform pivotal roles in the story, and it would fit together rather well.

That said, its obviously not certain - it remains a theory until it actually occurs or is disproved - but its foolish to discount it entirely based on the above points.

[Faint]

The least credible of arguments are those that rely on the contention that because Jon does not possess the physical characteristics that are unique to the Targaryens, he is not one himself. The point is, if Jon could readily be identified as a Targaryen by those within the story, then it would not be much of a mystery who his parents were and the writer would never have bothered to develop this sub-story in the first place.

[KingSnow]

The least credible of arguments are those that rely on the contention that because Jon does not possess the physical characteristics that are unique to the Targaryens, he is not one himself. The point is, if Jon could readily be identified as a Targaryen by those within the story, then it would not be much of a mystery who his parents were and the writer would never have bothered to develop this sub-story in the first place.

With this argument, I'd have to say that the fact that the Targs want to keep their special blood/looks around by incest means that their genes or blood seems to be weak. Weak as in a child with another House will generally adopt the charicteristics of the other House. So the Targs engage in incest to make sure that their Targyness stays alive. Which makes R+L=J all the more plausible, because Jon would have simply inherited his mother's genes. And as we see with Robb, Rickon and Sansa, Stark genes seem to be more on the weaker side than at least Tully. (but not very weak, as we see with Arya) So a union with a House with even weaker genes seems to be the only sure way a child will be born with full Starkyness, at least on the first try.

[Faint]

With this argument, I'd have to say that the fact that the Targs want to keep their special blood/looks around by incest means that their genes or blood seems to be weak. Weak as in a child with another House will generally adopt the charicteristics of the other House. So the Targs engage in incest to make sure that their Targyness stays alive. Which makes R+L=J all the more plausible, because Jon would have simply inherited his mother's genes. And as we see with Robb, Rickon and Sansa, Stark genes seem to be more on the weaker side than at least Tully. (but not very weak, as we see with Arya) So a union with a House with even weaker genes seems to be the only sure way a child will be born with full Starkyness, at least on the first try.

My whole point is that Jon would necessarily have to look nondescript or, at the very least, not stereotypically Targaryen, not because of any genetic reasoning but purely for story purposes. There would be no mystery if he actually looked like he was the son of Rhaegar, along with it being implausible that Ned could have hidden him so long. Some will argue that had Jon had violet eyes Ned could have always explained that he was Ashara's son but that's a problem as well. At that point, there would be no open mystery as to who Jon's mother was within the story even if it wasn't true that Ashara was his mother. Jon, himself, would believe this to be the case. Moreover, it then becomes increasingly difficult to think that someone like Littlefinger could not have started to connect the dots.

[Lord of Autumn's End]

My whole point is that Jon would necessarily have to look nondescript or, at the very least, not stereotypically Targaryen, not because of any genetic reasoning but purely for story purposes. There would be no mystery if he actually looked like he was the son of Rhaegar, along with it being implausible that Ned could have hidden him so long. Some will argue that had Jon had violet eyes Ned could have always explained that he was Ashara's son but that's a problem as well. At that point, there would be no open mystery as to who Jon's mother was within the story even if it wasn't true that Ashara was his mother. Jon, himself, would believe this to be the case. Moreover, it then becomes increasingly difficult to think that someone like Littlefinger could not have started to connect the dots.

And if he'd had the Targaryen hair as well... Hoo boy. Poor Ned would have had his hands full.

This whole post is essentially right on the money. If the theory revolves around the fact that Jon might secretly be a Targaryen, then you can't use supposed evidence of him being Stark-blooded as a strike against it (to a point anyway) if the theory provides an explanation for that.

[Gilgafresh the Bling]

I'm little confused about the Tower of Joy(sorry if it's been answered 100 times): Ned remember (in a dream) that Rhaegar named it the "Tower of Joy": so, is this an hidden place were Rhaegar used to go(to play harp or whatever) even before the "abduction" of Lyanna and a lot of people, including Ned, knew of it, or Rheagar named it that way only after the "abduction" and Ned learnt about it only when he's searching for his sister?? and in this case who tell Ned that Rhaegar called it "the Tower of Joy"? wasn't it a super secret? I doubt Rhaegar would go around telling "oh, yeah, right now I'm chillin out with the wolf-chick in the tower of joy".

Anyway if is named that way after the abduction, probably it's not an abduction at all....

It's my personal belief that it was one Ashara "not nailed to the floor in Starfall" Dayne that told Ned about the Tower of Joy and where it was located. Numerous connections to make this plausible, but nothing definitive. She's definitely intimately connected to several of the ToJ players though. This scenario also helps to explain Ashara's suicide (if it indeed happened). She thinks she's helping Ned find his sister (and he does), but she's also complicit in the death of her brother by divulging the location of the ToJ to Ned. Perhaps THAT guilt was too much for her to stand.

:shrug:

[Lord of Autumn's End]

I'm little confused about the Tower of Joy(sorry if it's been answered 100 times): Ned remember (in a dream) that Rhaegar named it the "Tower of Joy": so, is this an hidden place were Rhaegar used to go(to play harp or whatever) even before the "abduction" of Lyanna and a lot of people, including Ned, knew of it, or Rheagar named it that way only after the "abduction" and Ned learnt about it only when he's searching for his sister?? and in this case who tell Ned that Rhaegar called it "the Tower of Joy"? wasn't it a super secret? I doubt Rhaegar would go around telling "oh, yeah, right now I'm chillin out with the wolf-chick in the tower of joy".

Anyway if is named that way after the abduction, probably it's not an abduction at all....

I can't actually remember much information about the ToJ off the top of my head, but IIRC it was Summerhall that Rhaegar used to go to play his harp, and Harrenhal I believe. I might have to go back and check, but I don't remember any real significance attached to the tower before Lyanna's stay there.

[tuthmoses]

It's my personal belief that it was one Ashara "not nailed to the floor in Starfall" Dayne that told Ned about the Tower of Joy and where it was located. Numerous connections to make this plausible, but nothing definitive. She's definitely intimately connected to several of the ToJ players though. This scenario also helps to explain Ashara's suicide (if it indeed happened). She thinks she's helping Ned find his sister (and he does), but she's also complicit in the death of her brother by divulging the location of the ToJ to Ned. Perhaps THAT guilt was too much for her to stand.

:shrug:

nice reasoning there ;)thats the best I've seen sofar to explain her suicide.

btw any arguments along the lines of Jon is a Stark so he can't be a targ are lame. The fact is he's 50% stark and 50% something else. We just don't know what that other 50% is. It's likely either Ashara or Rhaegar. Which one is more likely? Well Rhaegar lol. Why? Well the evidence/hints we've seen but also simply because GRRM says his parentS will be revealed not his mother, his PARENTS ... bit of a slip from old george there.

Also its clearly going to be a massive plot point. Of the two possibilites (discounting whilla cause it ain't her) jon being revealed as the son of R is a "WOW OH MY F*CKING GOD! THATS AWESOME! WHY DIDN'T I SEE IT?? IT'S BEEN SO OBVIOUS ALL ALONG! THE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE OF COURSE!!" moment to the casual reader who hasn't heard this theory before. Suddenly everything from even the first few pages of Game just fits into place. Where as revealing the mother to be Ashara Dayne is a "uh yeah ... who's that again?" moment ... pretty anti climatic.

Further lame arguments as to why Jon can't be R's son include 'nobody has said jon looks like R'. well duh that would kinda give the plot away don't ya think?

and 'Jon doesn't have dragon dreams or targ eyes.' Again complete plot give away plus there is nothing to suggest that all targs have to have dragon dreams or whatever. And Jon has a pet wolf so he can't have a dragon ... lol just lol

[Lady Winter Rose]

GRRM says his parentS will be revealed not his mother, his PARENTS ... bit of a slip from old george there.

I think it's actually his parentage, not his PARENTS. Right?

[tuthmoses]

yeah maybe I can't remember ... either way its not ashara dayne that ned dreams of if he had had some burning forbidden love affair with her you'd think she would be the one to dominate all these dreams of his yet when he is thinking about jon and dreaming and all that its of Lyanna

[Aegon VI Blackfyre]

I remember in my first read through I though the Tower of Joy had been named so sarcastically by the cruel Targaryens and that it must have been a horrible place. I slowly warmed to Rhaegar and realized the brilliance of the point of view writing. Now I'm pretty certain that it was meant to be a tower of joy, even if the naming turned out ironic in the end.