A Redeemed Hound Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 This is a deaf's dialog (if this expression exists in English).Why fight over a theory no one believes in ?Woodbyrne, you said yourself you didn't believe in it.Really just pointing out that there are no reasons to "fight" over theories, which some people here do. Calling one theory stupid over another theory makes no sense at all. I would bet top dollar that every theory in this entire forum turns out to be 100% wrong. I don't truly think that Lyanna had twins but I would not put it out of the realm of possibility. For all we know, she did not even have a baby and she was in a bed of blood from a wound she got fighting someone or being attacked by someone. It sounds solid that she died giving birth to a baby but there is not a shred of evidence that would make it 100% certain. Not one. Maybe she killed herself? Maybe she fell on a sword reaching for a lemon cake? That actually would be pretty funny. But people need to get over themselves. All of our theories just reflect what we want to happen. We get lucky if someone else on the forums want the same thing and agree with us. Until GRRM finishes something, all we have are best guesses and ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Really just pointing out that there are no reasons to "fight" over theories, which some people here do. Calling one theory stupid over another theory makes no sense at all.Oh, what a difference a fortnight makes:We can talk about the main characters of the books and the actual clues that have been placed by GRRM or we can be amazingly stupid and make stuff up and assume everything just to be disagreeable.... We shall see as long as GRRM does not croak before all the books are written. Until then, have fun making up some really stupid crap. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramz Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Really just pointing out that there are no reasons to "fight" over theories, which some people here do. Calling one theory stupid over another theory makes no sense at all. Only... some theories ARE stupid, and some aren't. I don't get why that's so hard for you to grasp here. Saying that Jon Snow is a tranny that turns into a unicorn by night who can shoot swords out of his mouth and can speak to wolves could be considered a theory, I GUESS, but it's a massively stupid theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Redeemed Hound Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Oh, what a difference a fortnight makes:Don't pull a Fox News on me and use clips of the larger picture to prove a point that is false. I got defensive because of your response to me, which was quite snotty and nasty, which is why I do not reply to your posts anymore. Bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 3- Why not indeed? Since any theory is fabricated, my theory of possible twims is no less believable than any other theory out there. Maybe Lyanna gave birth to a dragon? Maybe Jon Snow is a hermaprodite?Well, every theory is not created equal. For example, the theory that Ser Loras is not actually dead is much more plausible than, say, the notion that Lady Merryweather is actually Varys in disguise. (That second one is my favorite crackpot theory, by the way.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MightilyOats Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Ew, that means Varys would have had to have given himself a vagina at some point, doesn't it?Two pieces of liver and some mummer's tape should do just fine, just fine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 You're 100% right, the only problem there is that some theories (like the ones that are generally believed) have facts and claims anchored in reality to somewhat back them up, while others, like Lyanna being the Laughing Knight, Reed being jon's twin, or Jon being a tranny are baseless and ridiculous.While I agree with the sentiment, the Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree doesn't fit. If you do a search you will find many threads on this topic with, in my estimation, most people coming down on the side of Lyanna as the most likely candidate. I don't want to threadjack this topic, but there are plenty of clues that that might be the solution to the question of who is Meera's mystery knight, as opposed to your other quite ridiculous examples of, well, ridiculousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 While I agree with the sentiment, the Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree doesn't fit. If you do a search you will find many threads on this topic with, in my estimation, most people coming down on the side of Lyanna as the most likely candidate. I don't want to threadjack this topic, but there are plenty of clues that that might be the solution to the question of who is Meera's mystery knight, as opposed to your other quite ridiculous examples of, well, ridiculousness.My thoughts exactly! There are ridiculous, crackpot theories and there are theories for which there is much plausible, possible, circumstantial, etc. evidence and "Lyanna as KotLT" and "R+L=J" are at the top of the list as examples of the latter. All this with the caveat that, of course, we'll never know for sure until George chooses to tell us ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Autumn's End Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 No, Robert is quite dead. The whole death scene with his foul stench, festering wound, fever, and his dying and burrial kind of confirmed that.Way to completely miss my point. I was saying that since you have no evidence whatsoever for Lyanna to have had twins, you might as well say that the 'Robert' who died in GoT was a magical imposter, for example. Get it? The theory is completely stupid. End of story.What if, for some reason, Lyanna had twins and one looked all Stark (Jon) and the other looked all Targaryen? Ned could not say they were both his bastards without having to explain how the other one looks like it came from the family considered vile and wicked to his beloved friend and king, who enjoys the killing of Targaryen babies, women, and children. So Howland Reed (the one really important person we have never ever seen or heard from for some odd reason) agrees to take and protect it from Robert and his henchmen. Kind of like the Luke and Leia thing. How is it almost certainly wrong? You have facts?No, but I do have evidence that would fit the theory, which you would realise if you'd bothered to do your research. Most people who believe R+L=J believe that Ned spread the rumour about Jon being Ashara Dayne's child because the Daynes had Valyrian blood in them, so that if Jon had later ended up looking like his father Rhaegar (which you wouldn't be able to tell as soon as he was born) there would be an explanation that he could use. As it turned out, Jon looked very heavily like a Stark, so it wasn't necessary.Oh, I see, you are using the same arguments that you belittle others for using. Got it.No, I'm actually presenting evidence for the theories I believe, while you're just tossing crap out off the top of your head and admitting you don't even believe any of it and then getting mad when other people don't believe them either. Get it?Apology accepted.I never offered one, as far as I can recall. No offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramz Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 While I agree with the sentiment, the Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree doesn't fit. If you do a search you will find many threads on this topic with, in my estimation, most people coming down on the side of Lyanna as the most likely candidate. I don't want to threadjack this topic, but there are plenty of clues that that might be the solution to the question of who is Meera's mystery knight, as opposed to your other quite ridiculous examples of, well, ridiculousness.Fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady of the Rock Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Haha well, to bring this back to R+L=J...The more I read these threads and hear this discussion, the more I almost feel like the scenario will turn out to be Ned+Ashara = Jon.Especially when one brings into account the whole Tourney at Harranhal.It seems to me that the dance between Ned and Ashara there is significant, in that it's the point at which they meet and potentially fall in love.Now of course, at that time, Ned could be totally free to love Ashara, as it is Brandon that is engaged to Catelyn. So perhaps some sort of pending betrothal existed between Ned and Ashara.Then, Brandon obviously dies and Ned is obligated to marry Catelyn in his place, so no more Ashara.So then it follows that at some point, Ned and Ashara meet again and bang, Jon Snow.Which also kind of coincides with Ashara's apparent suicide, as well. Kind of like Ophelia in Hamlet, Ashara is unable to cope with the man she loves (Ned) killing her brother Arthur while also knowing that a future with Ned would be totally impossible as he is married.The only thing that bothers me about this scenario is the timing of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrish swan Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 This has always seemed weak to me. Needing an extra uterus is not a good reason to provoke two or three Great Houses.Yes, which is why I've always held the theory that Rhaegar was deeply in love with Lyanna. I've always thought that this love, even more than the prophecy, was why he ultimately ran off with her. Of course, the prophecy did come into the equation; and I believe that "it's all for the prophecy" was the explanation he gave Elia, in order to avoid hurting her (evidence suggests that he fell in love with Lyanna in a way that he had never loved elia or anyone else before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward the Great Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Yes, which is why I've always held the theory that Rhaegar was deeply in love with Lyanna. I've always thought that this love, even more than the prophecy, was why he ultimately ran off with her. Of course, the prophecy did come into the equation; and I believe that "it's all for the prophecy" was the explanation he gave Elia, in order to avoid hurting her (evidence suggests that he fell in love with Lyanna in a way that he had never loved elia or anyone else before.Sorry, but emotion decoupled from rational decision making is "insanity."I have a new, inconsequential theory about the timeline. I once remember liking the idea that Jon had been taken to Starfall by the time that Ned arrived at the Tower. Obviously, that can't be true. But what if Howland Reed took Jon and whoever else was in the Tower, presumably Wylla and maybe Ashara, and went to Starfall with them before "they" came and found Ned? If "they" had found Jon at the Tower, I think "they" would have damn well figured out who Jon was and the Seven Kingdoms wouldn't go on thinking that Ashara was Jon's mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Redeemed Hound Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Haha well, to bring this back to R+L=J...The more I read these threads and hear this discussion, the more I almost feel like the scenario will turn out to be Ned+Ashara = Jon.Especially when one brings into account the whole Tourney at Harranhal.It seems to me that the dance between Ned and Ashara there is significant, in that it's the point at which they meet and potentially fall in love.Now of course, at that time, Ned could be totally free to love Ashara, as it is Brandon that is engaged to Catelyn. So perhaps some sort of pending betrothal existed between Ned and Ashara.Then, Brandon obviously dies and Ned is obligated to marry Catelyn in his place, so no more Ashara.So then it follows that at some point, Ned and Ashara meet again and bang, Jon Snow.Which also kind of coincides with Ashara's apparent suicide, as well. Kind of like Ophelia in Hamlet, Ashara is unable to cope with the man she loves (Ned) killing her brother Arthur while also knowing that a future with Ned would be totally impossible as he is married.The only thing that bothers me about this scenario is the timing of it...Great minds think alike. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Redeemed Hound Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Haha well, to bring this back to R+L=J...The more I read these threads and hear this discussion, the more I almost feel like the scenario will turn out to be Ned+Ashara = Jon.Especially when one brings into account the whole Tourney at Harranhal.It seems to me that the dance between Ned and Ashara there is significant, in that it's the point at which they meet and potentially fall in love.Now of course, at that time, Ned could be totally free to love Ashara, as it is Brandon that is engaged to Catelyn. So perhaps some sort of pending betrothal existed between Ned and Ashara.Then, Brandon obviously dies and Ned is obligated to marry Catelyn in his place, so no more Ashara.So then it follows that at some point, Ned and Ashara meet again and bang, Jon Snow.Which also kind of coincides with Ashara's apparent suicide, as well. Kind of like Ophelia in Hamlet, Ashara is unable to cope with the man she loves (Ned) killing her brother Arthur while also knowing that a future with Ned would be totally impossible as he is married.The only thing that bothers me about this scenario is the timing of it...Also, it would still keep Ned as an honorable person. Like you said, his brother was still alive so his love for Ashara is fine. Maybe they had a secret affair between the tourney and the start ofthe rebellion (which there was plenty of time) but that is hardly a big deal. Then, due to his honor and loyalty, he took Catelyn as his bride once his brother died to keep the bonds between Tully and Stark, who were pro Robert Baratheon, his best friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Haha well, to bring this back to R+L=J...The more I read these threads and hear this discussion, the more I almost feel like the scenario will turn out to be Ned+Ashara = Jon.Especially when one brings into account the whole Tourney at Harranhal.It seems to me that the dance between Ned and Ashara there is significant, in that it's the point at which they meet and potentially fall in love.Now of course, at that time, Ned could be totally free to love Ashara, as it is Brandon that is engaged to Catelyn. So perhaps some sort of pending betrothal existed between Ned and Ashara.Then, Brandon obviously dies and Ned is obligated to marry Catelyn in his place, so no more Ashara.So then it follows that at some point, Ned and Ashara meet again and bang, Jon Snow.Which also kind of coincides with Ashara's apparent suicide, as well. Kind of like Ophelia in Hamlet, Ashara is unable to cope with the man she loves (Ned) killing her brother Arthur while also knowing that a future with Ned would be totally impossible as he is married.The only thing that bothers me about this scenario is the timing of it...The timing should bother you. For N+A=J to work one has to explain how Ned, one of the leaders of the rebellion, met with Ashara, a well known loyalist, some three to four months into the war. Martin has stated that Ashara was not "nailed down" in Starfall, but still we have no hint of such a meeting and many obstacles to overcome in envisioning one happening.Don't get me wrong, the timeline can't rule out N+A=J, it just makes it difficult to see how it happened without more information from Martin. It certainly has the well supported love story between Ned and Ashara going for it, and it has those rumors from Ned's troops that Catelyn tells us about (which Cersei also supports in her remarks to Ned) but that would seem to be more about the timing of when Jon arrives on the scene than anything else - it's likely he is either first seen by Ned's troops, or at least they learn about him first after Ned returns from Starfall.The interesting thing here, to me anyway, is that Robert believes Ned when he tells him Wylla is Jon's mother. That obviously means either Robert is a total idiot or he doesn't know of any meeting between Ashara and Ned. If such a meeting took place that Ned's troops knew about, or that Robert knew about, then Ashara would not be rumored to be Jon's mother, it would be a known fact. Add to this the fact we know the heir to Starfall, young Ned Dayne, seems to think it is a well known fact that Wylla, not his aunt Ashara, is Jon's mother and we have many holes in this theory that need answering.That doesn't even get to all the hints that point to Lyanna, but that's for another post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Snow Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Also, it would still keep Ned as an honorable person. Like you said, his brother was still alive so his love for Ashara is fine. Maybe they had a secret affair between the tourney and the start ofthe rebellion (which there was plenty of time) but that is hardly a big deal. Then, due to his honor and loyalty, he took Catelyn as his bride once his brother died to keep the bonds between Tully and Stark, who were pro Robert Baratheon, his best friend.The problem is the age of Jon. For Jon to have been conceived between Ned + Ashara, before Ned was married to Catelyn, Jon would be older than he currently is. Now, I can buy this theory that this happened, but that baby is not Jon. GH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 The problem is the age of Jon. For Jon to have been conceived between Ned + Ashara, before Ned was married to Catelyn, Jon would be older than he currently is. Now, I can buy this theory that this happened, but that baby is not Jon. GHExactly. A child born from a tryst at Harrenhal can't be Jon. Martin's quote about Jon being "eight or nine months" older than Daenerys rules this out, and the simple idea of trying to convince people a year old child is a new born makes this such a stretch as to be unbelievable.My favorite crackpot theory is that a child was born from such a love affair, but that child was swapped with the baby Aegon and it is Ned and Ashara's child whose head is bashed in at King's Landing. It would explain Ned's reaction to the display of "Aegon's" body and Ashara's suicide better, to my way of thinking, but this is total crackpot territory with nothing but conjecture to support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Redeemed Hound Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 The problem is the age of Jon. For Jon to have been conceived between Ned + Ashara, before Ned was married to Catelyn, Jon would be older than he currently is. Now, I can buy this theory that this happened, but that baby is not Jon. GHThey did not have to conceive at Harrenhall. There was a lot of time between then and the beginning of the rebellion where Ned would have been free to visit Ashara. GRRM even said so but I do not know the quote or exact time off hand. The rebellion did not start right after the tourney. That's a well known fact. :bang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 They did not have to conceive at Harrenhall. There was a lot of time between then and the beginning of the rebellion where Ned would have been free to visit Ashara. GRRM even said so but I do not know the quote or exact time off hand. The rebellion did not start right after the tourney. That's a well known fact. :bang:No, Woodbyrne, it's you that doesn't seem to get it. Martin has let us know, approximately, when Jon is born, so we know when, approximately, he is conceived. Jon can't be a child born of Ned and Ashara conceived either at the Harrenhal tourney, OR at anytime before the rebellion. Jon is conceived some three to four months into the rebellion. It's simple math. Start with Martin's statement that Jon is born "eight to nine" months prior to Daenerys. Follow this with knowing she is born "nine moons" after her mother's flight from King's Landing - shortly before the sack. This puts Jon's conception three to four months into a rebellion that lasts about a year, not before the rebellion starts. As I laid out in the post in response to the Lady of the Rock, this doesn't eliminate N+A=J, it just means we have to explain how a well known loyalist and one of the generals in charge of the rebellion get together without anyone noticing they do. Not impossible, but unlikely. We need lots more information for this to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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