The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

[elmis]

Why is it too obvious?

It is obvious for us, the hardcore fans, who has spent 9x20 pages of posts discussing this -- for your average reader it might not be AS in-your-face (there are still those).

R+L = J is as good a theory as any, and better than most by a country mile.

[A Redeemed Hound]

Why is it too obvious?

It is obvious for us, the hardcore fans, who has spent 9x20 pages of posts discussing this -- for your average reader it might not be AS in-your-face (there are still those).

R+L = J is as good a theory as any, and better than most by a country mile.

I agree the R+L = J Theory is the best so far. But I "saw" it when I first read the books and two other people I turned on to the books (and still reading them for the 1st time) brought it up to me.

I guess my biggest problem with the theory is that while there is so much proof for it, there are a lot of things with Jon that do not fit the theory either. One big thing is that even I thought of it and so far GRRM has had me guessing and totally shocked in every book so far.

It's just fun to throw out theories and debate them.

As for Tyrion, I agree about the circular-ness of the reasoning he is a Targaryen becuase he has dragon dreams. But like I said, the dreams in these books by every character have had much more meaning than a poor night's sleep. Every dream by every other peron has led to something or foreshadowed something. Why not Tyrion?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

But like I said, the dreams in these books by every character have had much more meaning than a poor night's sleep. Every dream by every other peron has led to something or foreshadowed something.

Not true. Sometimes the dreams exist only to show somebody's state of mind, and are pure wish fulfillment. In ASOS, Sam dreams that he feasts all of his friends at the Night's Watch at Horn Hill. In ACOK, Tyrion dreams that Jaime makes him a knight.

[Rhodan]

As for Tyrion, I agree about the circular-ness of the reasoning he is a Targaryen becuase he has dragon dreams. But like I said, the dreams in these books by every character have had much more meaning than a poor night's sleep. Every dream by every other peron has led to something or foreshadowed something. Why not Tyrion?

It looks like that it only forshadows that he...

will teach three of them they shouldn´t eat people

[Edward the Great]

In ASOS, Sam dreams that he feasts all of his friends at the Night's Watch at Horn Hill.

Who's to say that dream shall not be prophetic? That's a hard passage to track down, because I have no memory of its context. Can you say which Sam chapter it is in? If you have the trade paperback or hardback, can you give a page number?

[Oevel]

To go further with the dreams, I think there's a fantastic thread also on the first page (Dragon sightings in winterfell) that talks about how Bran had a wolf dream about a winged snaked whose roar breathed fire, whilst hiding from the sacking of Winterfell. This could imply that dreaming about dragons are not characteristically Targ traits.

[Edward the Great]

I think the correct way to view dragon dreams is not that Valyrians have dragon dreams, its that Tyrion has dragon dreams because Martin wants to provide obtuse hints about his heritage. Martin doesn't do this with Jon because given all the other hints, it would be a dead giveaway.

[A Redeemed Hound]

To go further with the dreams, I think there's a fantastic thread also on the first page (Dragon sightings in winterfell) that talks about how Bran had a wolf dream about a winged snaked whose roar breathed fire, whilst hiding from the sacking of Winterfell. This could imply that dreaming about dragons are not characteristically Targ traits.

Bran has warged into his wolf in that scene. The wolf is just describing things that he is seeing as a wolf would see them. I think that is all it was. A direwolf describing a fire and smoke with the very basic knowledge that it has. It wasn't a dream sequence. It was Bran "seeing" the ruins of his home though the eyes of his direwolf.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Who's to say that dream shall not be prophetic? That's a hard passage to track down, because I have no memory of its context. Can you say which Sam chapter it is in? If you have the trade paperback or hardback, can you give a page number?

It's on page 643 in the US mass-market paperback, in the chapter when Sam meets Coldhands. He falls asleep with Gilly, has the dream, and wakes up to discover that the wight of Small Paul is in the hovel with them.

And if you look at the dream, Lord Mormont is alive in it.

I think the correct way to view dragon dreams is not that Valyrians have dragon dreams, its that Tyrion has dragon dreams because Martin wants to provide obtuse hints about his heritage.

Well, maybe. But the scene serves other functions: it gives us background about Westeros, it sets up Tyrion's strained relationship with his family, it establishes the relationship between Jon and Tyrion. To put it another way, if it were confirmed that Tyrion was not a Targaryen, as I expect it to be, you wouldn't find yourself wondering why that scene is there.

[Oevel]

@wood

That is probably the most likely explanation. However I find the wording of the scene too dragon like to simply be smoke. I think the exact line was something like a winged snake whos roar was a river of fire. Also if you look at the narrative structure it seems that summer notices smoke first and then this winged snake. So it might be weird to mention smoke twice.

Again the most reasonable thing is that it's just smoke. But I take issue with the way the whole section sounds like

[A Redeemed Hound]

@wood

That is probably the most likely explanation. However I find the wording of the scene too dragon like to simply be smoke. I think the exact line was something like a winged snake whos roar was a river of fire. Also if you look at the narrative structure it seems that summer notices smoke first and then this winged snake. So it might be weird to mention smoke twice.

Again the most reasonable thing is that it's just smoke. But I take issue with the way the whole section sounds like

I agree it's interesting the way it is worded. But does it make sense that there was a dragon hidden under Winterfell for thousands of years? Bran the Builder supposedly built Winterfell and that was long before the Targaryens even cane to Westeros with their dragons. It just doesn't make sense to me. I think the only real dragons in the books will be the three Dany has. I think Melissandre is completely screwing up the prophesy and will pay for it with her life trying to raise a dragon. But like I said it was worded in a curious way but to me it makes more sense that is was just how an animal with limited intelligence would see a massive fire. Of course I could be wrong. If it were a dragon, wouldn't more people have seen it?

[George Snow]

I agree it's interesting the way it is worded. But does it make sense that there was a dragon hidden under Winterfell for thousands of years? Bran the Builder supposedly built Winterfell and that was long before the Targaryens even cane to Westeros with their dragons. It just doesn't make sense to me. I think the only real dragons in the books will be the three Dany has. I think Melissandre is completely screwing up the prophesy and will pay for it with her life trying to raise a dragon. But like I said it was worded in a curious way but to me it makes more sense that is was just how an animal with limited intelligence would see a massive fire. Of course I could be wrong. If it were a dragon, wouldn't more people have seen it?

Although I think it would be interesting if there was an ice dragon under The Wall, and that the Horn of Winter wakes up the dragon, and that is what causes the wall to fall. Then we could see Jon with an Ice Dragon.

GH

[Lord Jon Elurra]

Talk about making stuff up.

That Jon may be Lyanna's child with Howland Reed - now that's a plausible possibility that nobody has brought up before. But I do not believe there is any possibility that Jon is anyone but Lyanna's child. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

If Jon is Lyanna´s child with Howland Reed why didn´t Howland take Jon as his son and forced Ned to lie to Cat, his true sons... I dont´t get it.

And about people stating that R+L=J is too obvious, I think that it´s too obvious for us, the hardcore westeros forum users fans who talk a lot about it in internet :grouphug:

[A Redeemed Hound]

If Jon is Lyanna´s child with Howland Reed why didn´t Howland take Jon as his son and forced Ned to lie to Cat, his true sons... I dont´t get it.

And about people stating that R+L=J is too obvious, I think that it´s too obvious for us, the hardcore westeros forum users fans who talk a lot about it in internet :grouphug:

I thought about that the first time I read the books. And 2 friends of mine are reading them for the first time right now and guessed it without me asking them. It's pretty obvious IMO.

[Xanrn]

Jon is a Stark, if you don't get that by now I don't know how not.

Jon has a Wolf Sword, a Pet Wolf, Wolf Dreams, the Wolf temper and a Wolf personality. He is a Stark to such an extent he out-Starks the rest of the Stark children (though not by much when it comes to Arya/Bran).

The only debate is which parent he gets it from.

Jon will not become a Targayen, he will not become rider of any kind of dragon.

Why? Because he has Ghost already, what is he ment to do, hang Ghost in a harness from the bottom of the Dragon?

Because he has Longclaw and he wants to become a swordsmen worthy of his sword. All 3 of thoose plot points are rendered mute by Jon soaring around on the back of a Dragon.

Also I am fairly sure Bran of all people would know the difference between a winged snake and a Valryian Dragon.

[Sidonie]

Jon is a Stark, if you don't get that by now I don't know how not.

Jon has a Wolf Sword, a Pet Wolf, Wolf Dreams, the Wolf temper and a Wolf personality. He is a Stark to such an extent he out-Starks the rest of the Stark children (though not by much when it comes to Arya/Bran).

The only debate is which parent he gets it from.

Jon will not become a Targayen, he will not become rider of any kind of dragon.

Why? Because he has Ghost already, what is he ment to do, hang Ghost in a harness from the bottom of the Dragon?

Because he has Longclaw and he wants to become a swordsmen worthy of his sword. All 3 of thoose plot points are rendered mute by Jon soaring around on the back of a Dragon.

Also I am fairly sure Bran of all people would know the difference between a winged snake and a Valryian Dragon.

Maybe his is the "song of Ice and Fire." Maybe he has a wolf AND a dragon. Dragons have claws, too.

[willmmmm]

I'm pretty sure every angle of this subject has been covered in this thread, but since I just finished all 4 books back to back and just joined the board I figured I'd add my two cents.

While I agree that it's most likely that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents there is one little wrinkle. In Meera's story to Bran about Howlan Reed in the Tourney at Harrenhal she seems to highlight the 'woman with silver hair and violet eyes' who danced with the shy, middle brother of the wolf family. These are obviously thinly veiled references to Ashara Dayne and Ned Stark. After Meera is finished with her tale she asks Bran more than a few times if Bran is sure his father never told him that story.

The implication of this would be that perhaps Ned and Ashara had a budding relationship that led to the fathering of Jon. However, this could just be the story that Howlan Reed told his children to protect the true story (and Jon with his Targaryen blood.) The wrinkle comes in with the Greensight visions of Jojen. While I guess it only really helps in prophesying the future it also seems to help Jojen see through lies in the present. If that is the case wouldn't he have been able to see through the lie of Howlan's story?

I'm probably just grasping at straws here. While most people who have read the books start to develop the Rhaegar and Lyanna theory fairly organically (IE: without reading sites like these) I have to imagine it doesn't bother GRRM. I saw more than a few of the twists in the first 4 book in advance but it didn't make their reveals any less exciting. Honestly, Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents would be a shocking revelation to everyone in the ASOIAF books. The enjoyment I'll derive from reading it will not be from the twist itself but from reading the other characters reactions to the revelation.

So, here's hoping GRRM sticks with the twist most readers have already figured out. Sometimes it's about the journey, not the destination.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The wrinkle comes in with the Greensight visions of Jojen. While I guess it only really helps in prophesying the future it also seems to help Jojen see through lies in the present. If that is the case wouldn't he have been able to see through the lie of Howlan's story?

What are you basing that on?

-----

Jon will not become a Targayen, he will not become rider of any kind of dragon.

Why? Because he has Ghost already, what is he ment to do, hang Ghost in a harness from the bottom of the Dragon?

I think you've just successfully proved that most of Jon's storyline in A Storm of Swords (during which he's not only separated from Ghost, his connection with Ghost is severed) couldn't have happened.

[willmmmm]

What are you basing that on?

Mostly just the heightened level of perception Jojen posses. For example: he is able to discern, quite quickly and with little questioning, that Bran is a Warg. In general, he always seems to be able to assess a situation rather quickly and determine a course of action. Most of those assessments usually involve shooting down ideas from Bran or Meera that are often based on impulses or feelings they do not share with him directly.

While I can't recall him ever calling out anyone on a specific lie about their past (and I don't have the books handy) I feel like his Greensight and overall demeanor would allow him to see through the holes or lies in stories.

I know it's a bit of a stretch, but Meera seemed to have told the 'Howlan Reed at Harrenhal' story to Bran for a specific (albeit cryptic) reason. Yet the story itself makes no mention of a connection between Rhaegar and Lyanna. So what is Meera trying to communicate?

[Jonias Snow]

I'm probably just grasping at straws here. While most people who have read the books start to develop the Rhaegar and Lyanna theory fairly organically (IE: without reading sites like these) I have to imagine it doesn't bother GRRM. I saw more than a few of the twists in the first 4 book in advance but it didn't make their reveals any less exciting. Honestly, Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents would be a shocking revelation to everyone in the ASOIAF books. The enjoyment I'll derive from reading it will not be from the twist itself but from reading the other characters reactions to the revelation.

So, here's hoping GRRM sticks with the twist most readers have already figured out. Sometimes it's about the journey, not the destination.

Good point, hardcore folks who frequent this board make up a small percentage, perhap five percent of those millions that have read the books, so the R+L=J theory will be a total shock to 95% of the ASOIAF fans out there.