The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

[Stubby]

[MOD]

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[Manakhkubar]

Secondly, assuming R+L=J is true, Dany is his aunt, not his sister, and while its still incest, its no worse than marrying one's cousin, which is considered perfectly natural in Westeros. Also, I'm no expert on US law, but aren't there plenty of states where marriage to a cousin is legal?

Nephew-aunt and cousin-cousin is NOT the same thing when it comes to incest. Genetically, siblings have an expected "similarity" of 1/2 (1 is monozygotic twins, 0 is random sample), cousins are at 1/8, aunt-nephew are at 1/4. While most cultures except marriages between relatives with an expected similarity of 1/8 or less, most don't except those above and ban it as incest. One could actually say this is the very border of incest in most cultures.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Nephew-aunt and cousin-cousin is NOT the same thing when it comes to incest. Genetically, siblings have an expected "similarity" of 1/2 (1 is monozygotic twins, 0 is random sample), cousins are at 1/8, aunt-nephew are at 1/4. While most cultures except marriages between relatives with an expected similarity of 1/8 or less, most don't except those above and ban it as incest. One could actually say this is the very border of incest in most cultures.

"Accept" and "except" are not the same thing either. The former means tolerate, the latter means exclude.

The deformities and mental deficiency of Carlos II of Spain were due to multiple uncle to niece marriages, but there were cousin to cousin ones as well.

[elmis]

Why are people thinking that Jon and Dany must hook up? Are there any hints to the story going that route or is it simply just wishful(?) thinking since they're both main characters, protagonists and of the same age?

[Edward the Great]

Why are people thinking that Jon and Dany must hook up? Are there any hints to the story going that route or is it simply just wishful(?) thinking since they're both main characters, protagonists and of the same age?

The vision Dany has of the blue rose in a wall of ice and how it's sweet fragrance fills the room. That's the only hint in the book so far. Also, Martin has a grim track record with what he does to characters who fall in love, so I suppose part of it is wishful thinking.

[MightilyOats]

as for howland reed, he may be a good fighter but i doubt he succeded at the ToJ due to his prowess in fighting in heavy armour and skill at the lists

unlike the what, 12 year old girl who effortlessly unhorsed full-grown men?

You seem to be sticking up your nose at the facts, because they're not "realistic" but then completely ignoring that the ridiculous theory has a lot more holes in it.

[Rodgex]

The vision Dany has of the blue rose in a wall of ice and how it's sweet fragrance fills the room. That's the only hint in the book so far. Also, Martin has a grim track record with what he does to characters who fall in love, so I suppose part of it is wishful thinking.

That is a very good hint at it, but I don't think it is just wishful thinking since at this stage we are on page 9 of the 9th thread about this topic... It just seems to fit together so well, especially since the books are called "A Song of Ice and Fire." As for Martin's track record, yes it certainly does not bode well.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

unlike the what, 12 year old girl who effortlessly unhorsed full-grown men?

You seem to be sticking up your nose at the facts, because they're not "realistic" but then completely ignoring that the ridiculous theory has a lot more holes in it.

Size isn't everything; slender young Loras Tyrell unhorsed the Mountain that Rides. Also, she was around 14 years old. She died in 283 at the age of 16 and the tourney was in 281.

The problem with Howland as the KotLT is that he would have spent his life paddling around in a swamp, not much riding horses. Meera says as much in the story: "The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances." Nor did Howland show much mettle when the squires attacked him. They knocked his spear from his hand and he just curled up into a fetal position on the ground.

Lyanna on the other hand, not only showed fine fighting spirit when she laid into the squires, but she was an excellent rider. "You ride like a northman, milady," Harwyn said when he drew them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna. But my father was master of horse, remember." There was also a comment by Jaime that jousting is primarily decided by riding skill.

[A Redeemed Hound]

No. You don't think it would fit properly. Newsflash: your opinion is not the one that decides what is and isn't appropriate for the series. That's for GRRM to decide, we're simply making theories with the stuff he's already given us. It might be wrong. It might be correct. We don't know with complete certainty and neither do you.

It is.

There is evidence that can be used to disprove R+L=J, but most of that is open to alternative interpretation or can be treated as a Red Herring by the people who believe in this theory. I would strongly disagree however, in your belief that there are 'just as many' clues pointing to it being wrong.

Reverse your comment above towards yourself. Since there has yet to be a solid answer by GRRM, everything is open to interpretation.

Okay, firstly no one has ever claimed that we know Jon is ever anything more than half-Stark. Plenty of people have some really strong suspicions as to his heritage, but that's not the same thing as knowing.

Secondly, assuming R+L=J is true, Dany is his aunt, not his sister, and while its still incest, its no worse than marrying one's cousin, which is considered perfectly natural in Westeros. Also, I'm no expert on US law, but aren't there plenty of states where marriage to a cousin is legal? Dany may even be barren as well, if what Mirri told her is true, in which case there would be no harm in it. I'd also like to point out, that even if R+L=J is true, Dany may still marry another man for the sake of an alliance or just not want to sleep with Jon. Jon may not want to sleep with her. You are assuming way, way too much at this point and letting your prejudices colour your thinking.

We don't know Jon is at least half Stark? How so? He looks like who? He has a what? He is claimed to be of whose blood? Also, I was unaware that U.S. Law affected a make believe realm that does not exist. Jon says, "I won't marry my aunt. That's incestual. Hot, but still incestual." Ilyrio replies, "Well in the U.S. there are plenty of states where you can marry your cousin..."

The Twins theory is not impossible in the same way that its not impossible that Robert isn't actually dead, for example. The fact is that there is no evidence to suggest that Jon has a twin, and it would actually undermine the R+L=J theory. Ned claimed Jon as his bastard, if Jon had a twin, Ned would have claimed them both as his bastards and simply said that that they were twins. Whether Lyanna had given birth to one child or two would not have changed Ned's actions. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest it happened, beyond your 'feeling that it is with Howland Reed'. You even said that you are 'sure that you are wrong', then you took offense at me when I pointed out that is almost certainly wrong, unless GRRM pulls out a magical twin for Jon at the end of the series. What makes for a better story for you does not necessarily do the same for anyone else.

No, Robert is quite dead. The whole death scene with his foul stench, festering wound, fever, and his dying and burrial kind of confirmed that. What if, for some reason, Lyanna had twins and one looked all Stark (Jon) and the other looked all Targaryen? Ned could not say they were both his bastards without having to explain how the other one looks like it came from the family considered vile and wicked to his beloved friend and king, who enjoys the killing of Targaryen babies, women, and children. So Howland Reed (the one really important person we have never ever seen or heard from for some odd reason) agrees to take and protect it from Robert and his henchmen. Kind of like the Luke and Leia thing. How is it almost certainly wrong? You have facts? Oh, I see, you are using the same arguments that you belittle others for using. Got it.

Apology accepted.

[Paternalisme]

What if, for some reason, Lyanna had twins and one looked all Stark (Jon) and the other looked all Targaryen?

The idea of one child full Stark and one full Targaryens strikes me as particularly not ASOIAF-ish. I guess that one twin could have some Targaryen features wich would make it harder for Ned to claim him as his bastard but it does seem to me a bit far-stretched since we had absolutely no hints of that (and GRRM seems fond of clues and hints).

[A Redeemed Hound]

The idea of one child full Stark and one full Targaryens strikes me as particularly not ASOIAF-ish. I guess that one twin could have some Targaryen features wich would make it harder for Ned to claim him as his bastard but it does seem to me a bit far-stretched since we had absolutely no hints of that (and GRRM seems fond of clues and hints).

I don't really think it's a strong possibility but it's not a crazy theory. With 3 books still to go over the next 50-75 years, there is plenty of time for more hints to be dropped. I am still not convinced that L+R=J so L+R=J and twin is even harder for me to buy. :D

[Lord Jon Elurra]

No, Robert is quite dead. The whole death scene with his foul stench, festering wound, fever, and his dying and burrial kind of confirmed that. What if, for some reason, Lyanna had twins and one looked all Stark (Jon) and the other looked all Targaryen? Ned could not say they were both his bastards without having to explain how the other one looks like it came from the family considered vile and wicked to his beloved friend and king, who enjoys the killing of Targaryen babies, women, and children. So Howland Reed (the one really important person we have never ever seen or heard from for some odd reason) agrees to take and protect it from Robert and his henchmen. Kind of like the Luke and Leia thing. How is it almost certainly wrong? You have facts? Oh, I see, you are using the same arguments that you belittle others for using. Got it.

Apology accepted.

Some minor details:

• 
  
• Ashara had violet eyes and blonde hair, like Targaryens. Ned could have said that they were Ashara´s sons.
  
• After birth, babies usually do not develop their adult eye color until they have 6 months or more. Impossible for Ned or Howland to decide which one was Targ, imagine that they choose the wrong one :blushing: ...
  
• Why twins? why not triplets? Octuplets? Octomom from Westeros? Ha ha. This fabricated theory about twins can be magnified by... :rolleyes:
  
  
  

[MightilyOats]

Size isn't everything; slender young Loras Tyrell unhorsed the Mountain that Rides.

That's a terrible example.

The Mountain was riding a horse he didn't even have under control when Loras unhorsed him.

Also, she was around 14 years old.

And we all know how much stronger girls get between 12 and 14.

The problem with Howland as the KotLT

...involves a lot of the same problems you get when you try to say it's Lyanna who did it. Except in that case it's even more ridiculous, because it's easier to assume that Lyanna had no martial training whatsoever. Arya wanting to learn how to use a sword reminded Ned of the willfulness of Lyanna, but he never made any direct comparisons to her, insofar as Lyanna actually having learned, or wanting to have learned, the martial skills of a knight.

Her riding a horse well, and loving to ride horses doesn't amount to much of anything. It's the worst kind of evidence.

The kind that's not evidence.

Nor did Howland show much mettle when the squires attacked him. They knocked his spear from his hand and he just curled up into a fetal position on the ground.

Now this is a fair point, and there's not much rebuttal to it, other than maybe it pissed Howland off so much he decided to then beat them at their own game.

A classic story trope, no? The hero loses initially, only to come back and beat the villain at their own game?

At this point, it seems to be "It's ridiculous to assume a small man with no training could unhorse and chastise full grown knights. On the other hand, a 14 year old girl who was known for having a temper and doing wacky stuff makes a lot more sense."

Well...no. No it doesn't.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

That's a terrible example.

The Mountain was riding a horse he didn't even have under control when Loras unhorsed him.And we all know how much stronger girls get between 12 and 14

We all know that Loras is nowhere near as strong as Gregor. The point remains that strength and size aren't everything.

involves a lot of the same problems you get when you try to say it's Lyanna who did it.

Right, because Lyanna spent her whole life in a swamp. Honestly, if you're going to throw around words like "ridiculous" so freely you should try to avoid making such asinine comments.

Except in that case it's even more ridiculous, because it's easier to assume that Lyanna had no martial training whatsoever.

Her ability to drive off three squires with a tourney sword seems to suggest otherwise.

Arya wanting to learn how to use a sword reminded Ned of the willfulness of Lyanna, but he never made any direct comparisons to her, insofar as Lyanna actually having learned, or wanting to have learned, the martial skills of a knight.

ned said she would have carried a sword had his father permitted it. The fact that Lord Rickard felt the need to forbid her from swordplay rather indicates that she had some inclination in that direction. Can you imagine anyone bothering to forbid Sansa from carrying a sword?

Her riding a horse well, and loving to ride horses doesn't amount to much of anything. It's the worst kind of evidence.

I guess you think you know more about that than Jaime Lannister.

maybe it pissed Howland off so much he decided to then beat them at their own game.

A classic story trope, no? The hero loses initially, only to come back and beat the villain at their own game?

He can't decide to go back in time and have years worth of experience at horsemanship, no matter how pissed off he is.

At this point, it seems to be "It's ridiculous to assume a small man with no training could unhorse and chastise full grown knights. On the other hand, a 14 year old girl who was known for having a temper and doing wacky stuff makes a lot more sense."

Howland's size was never the issue. We're told outright in the story that the KotLT was small in stature. It's that he'd probably have a hard time even staying on top of his horse.

[MightilyOats]

We all know that Loras is nowhere near as strong as Gregor. The point remains that strength and size aren't everything.

Yes, but your example wasn't a good one.

Use another one, involving tilts specifically.

Right, because Lyanna spent her whole life in a swamp.

Uhhh what?

I meant more along the lines of both of their respective statures (Lyanna being a very young woman, and Howland being a small man)

I don't see how that has anything to do with swamps, or how you could get that word from what I've been talking about, but ok.

Her ability to drive off three squires with a tourney sword seems to suggest otherwise.

Well, no, it doesn't.

Anyone comes at you swinging a big piece of metal, the first idea is to skedaddle.

Particularly when they're the daughter of one of the most powerful Lords in the realm.

ned said she would have carried a sword had his father permitted it.

Ha, this actually lends credence to MY side.

Their father never permitted it, so she was never given a chance to.

Ned affirms this.

Thank you for your contributions.

The fact that Lord Rickard felt the need to forbid her from swordplay rather indicates that she had some inclination in that direction.

Having an inclination doesn't mean anything, insofar as actually having learned anything.

She wanted to, their dad said no, so she didn't. By your own admission, Ned is our key witness right there.Can you imagine anyone bothering to forbid Sansa from carrying a sword?

I guess you think you know more about that than Jaime Lannister.

*sigh* so Harwin was world-renowned for his abilities as a jouster, was he?

And his father before him?

Think before you type.

He can't decide to go back in time and have years worth of experience at horsemanship, no matter how pissed off he is.

No, but he spent considerable time with the Green Men, and the crannogmen are closer to the old gods than most.

And aside from all that, such things matter little in stories.

Howland's size was never the issue. We're told outright in the story that the KotLT was small in stature. It's that he'd probably have a hard time even staying on top of his horse.

You know one point that I never see addressed?

Unless Lyanna was blessed with a mummer's gift for tongues, when the KotLT makes his proclamation, in full earshot of the most important members of the realm, not one of them thinks they're hearing a woman speak. I don't think even Brienne has ever been said to sound like a man.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Yes, but your example wasn't a good one.

Use another one, involving tilts specifically.

The example shows the biggest knight in the entire realm being unhorsed, and that did involve tilts specifically. I don't need another one, but we can be pretty sure it's happened before since we know of many other tourney champions since Gregor came of age. He would almost certainly have been present at the tourneys at Lannisport after Balon's rebellion was put down, and at KL for Cersei's wedding.

All of which is beside the point. The KotLT was small and but defeated those three knights anyway.

Uhhh what?

I meant more along the lines of both of their respective statures (Lyanna being a very young woman, and Howland being a small man)

I don't see how that has anything to do with swamps, or how you could get that word from what I've been talking about, but ok.

You're being deliberately obtuse. You claimed Howland "involves a lot of the same problems you get when you try to say it's Lyanna who did it", but I haven't claimed that physical size was a problem. For either of them. The primary problem for Howland that I've laid out, citing Meera's explicit evidence, was that crannogmen have minimal to no experience with riding horses. This spectacularly does not apply to Lyanna, so stop feigning confusion.

Well, no, it doesn't.

Anyone comes at you swinging a big piece of metal, the first idea is to skedaddle.

Really? For those with martial training like squires must have, and they outnumber her three to one, even though it's just a girl doing the swinging?

Particularly when they're the daughter of one of the most powerful Lords in the realm.

None of those squires' knights served the Starks, so what should they care about what ungodly savages think? They've already demonstrated their contempt for House Stark by abusing Howland.

Ha, this actually lends credence to MY side.

Not really.

Their father never permitted it, so she was never given a chance to.

Again, do we see Ned forbidding Sansa to swordfight? There's no need to. The fact that Rickard felt the need with Lyanna indicates that she had already been at it. You know, kind of like how Arya had been practicing with needle all the way down the kingsroad until Mycah got killed, and Ned had no idea?

Ned affirms this.

He simply does not affirm "she was never given a chance to". He affirms that their father forbade it at some point. not that she didn't get practice beforehand, and not that she didn't disobey her father secretly, either. After all, Ned also says she had the wildness in her, the 'wolf's blood'.

Having an inclination doesn't mean anything, insofar as actually having learned anything.

Funny how you want to make Howland's sudden inclination to learn horsemanship mean something.

*sigh* so Harwin was world-renowned for his abilities as a jouster, was he?

Think before you type.

How does that even respond to the point that Jaime Lannister, one of the preeminent jousters of the realm, considers riding ability to be the most important element of jousting? Jaime Lannister directly contradicts your claim that "Her riding a horse well, and loving to ride horses doesn't amount to much of anything. It's the worst kind of evidence." It doesn't, it's a non sequitur.

No, but he spent considerable time with the Green Men, and the crannogmen are closer to the old gods than most.

So? Does that mean they transported him back in time to get adequate riding experience?

And aside from all that, such things matter little in stories.

That's funny. Can I make such airy declarations about what things matter in stories, too?

You know one point that I never see addressed?

Unless Lyanna was blessed with a mummer's gift for tongues, when the KotLT makes his proclamation, in full earshot of the most important members of the realm, not one of them thinks they're hearing a woman speak. I don't think even Brienne has ever been said to sound like a man.

It's been addressed repeatedly in the many KotLT threads, which is where this discussion should be moved instead of continuing to threadjack R+L=J.

[MightilyOats]

The example shows the biggest knight in the entire realm being unhorsed, and that did involve tilts specifically.

Yes, but there were some heavily extenuating circumstances.

I don't need another one, but we can be pretty sure it's happened before since we know of many other tourney champions since Gregor came of age. He would almost certainly have been present at the tourneys at Lannisport after Balon's rebellion was put down, and at KL for Cersei's wedding.

See this? This is good. This supports your argument very well.

The Gregor vs. Loras example is not a pure one, as Loras won due to trickery. The extenuating circumstances jade it somewhat as a pure example.

As for those other times, though we know nothing about them, you make a great point. There is still a small chance Gregor did not compete in those tournies, however. I believe it's mentioned at some point that he rarely left his lands, and Sandor more rarely still, visited them.

However, it's still a good point. Well done.

You're being deliberately obtuse. You claimed Howland "involves a lot of the same problems you get when you try to say it's Lyanna who did it", but I haven't claimed that physical size was a problem.

I...never said you did? Those still remain problems regardless of whether or not you brought them up.

For either of them. The primary problem for Howland that I've laid out, citing Meera's explicit evidence, was that crannogmen have minimal to no experience with riding horses. This spectacularly does not apply to Lyanna, so stop feigning confusion.

Yes, but you seem to be under the misunderstanding that being able to ride a horse means you're somehow an excellent jouster, because of one comment by Jaime.

So I'll ask again about the great victories that Harwin and his father have both won.

You can even add them up together, and use one number for both. I'll wait for you to look up the proper evidence in the books and cite them to me.

Really? For those with martial training like squires must have, and they outnumber her three to one, even though it's just a girl doing the swinging?

None of those squires' knights served the Starks, so what should they care about what ungodly savages think? They've already demonstrated their contempt for House Stark by abusing Howland.

Not at all, no.

The Freys have always hated the crannogmen, and it has nothing to do with House Stark. The Blackwoods and the Brackens have feuded for hundreds of years, does this mean they show contempt to their Tully liege lord?

Your reasoning here is abysmal.

Not really.

Again, do we see Ned forbidding Sansa to swordfight?

We're not talking about Sansa, and neither her nor her personality type have anything to do with this discussion.

The fact that Rickard felt the need with Lyanna indicates that she had already been at it.

Or had picked up a sword one day, Rickard caught her at it, and forbade her to ever do so again.

Ned was very specific about how Lyanna was not allowed to wear a sword, and never made any mention of her actually having undergone any training, secret or otherwise.

You think he would have done, wouldn't you, when he found Arya at her play? Something along the lines of "Lyanna too loved to play with swords."

But we didn't get anything like that from him. We get told, by him, that she was forbidden to wear a sword, and nothing more.

You know, kind of like how Arya had been practicing with needle all the way down the kingsroad until Mycah got killed, and Ned had no idea?

This holds no more water than my own theory of Rickard having found her at play and forbidding her from doing it again.

It's supposition, and worse, it's groundless supposition, supported by nothing.

At the very least, I'm basing my own opinion on Ned's comments. You seem to be ignoring those comments, to bask in a fantasy world where Lyanna would train in the wee hours of the morning and night, besting man after man in her quest for swordplay excellence.

He simply does not affirm "she was never given a chance to". He affirms that their father forbade it at some point. not that she didn't get practice beforehand, and not that she didn't disobey her father secretly, either. After all, Ned also says she had the wildness in her, the 'wolf's blood'.

Hahaha so, Ned saying their dad forbade her to do so, and never at any point being reminded of Lyanna's own "secret training" whilst watching Arya at her lessons, is somehow some kind of proof that Lyanna was secretly Arthur Dayne.

Funny how you want to make Howland's sudden inclination to learn horsemanship mean something.

I don't even know what this is in referral to.

How does that even respond to the point that Jaime Lannister, one of the preeminent jousters of the realm, considers riding ability to be the most important element of jousting?

Saying Jaime's name alot doesn't actually give your argument more weight.

Work on that.

Jaime Lannister directly contradicts your claim that "Her riding a horse well, and loving to ride horses doesn't amount to much of anything. It's the worst kind of evidence." It doesn't, it's a non sequitur.

Well, Jaime Lannister, yes, obviously horse riding is an EXTREMELY important part of jousting.

I'm not disputing that, nor have I ever disputed that. But you seem to think it's the only thing one needs to be able to do, Jaime Lannister, so it makes one wonder why Winterfell's master of horse won no tournies, and why Harwin never truly distinguished himself either, Jaime Lannister.

Both are superb riders, Jaime Lannister, and using your Jaime Lannister brand of logic Jaime Lannister, it wouldn't be hard to imagine both being EXTREMELY good jousters, amongst the best Westeros has ever seen.

Arya too, will one day run rampant through the lists, as the Knight of the Hating Tree.

Jaime Lannister.

So? Does that mean they transported him back in time to get adequate riding experience?

No, but it could have meant they guided his lance, which wouldn't be impossible, or entirely uncommon.

He did pray heavily the night before, did he not?

That's funny. Can I make such airy declarations about what things matter in stories, too?

If you're accurate, then by all means.

But, assuming you would go about doing so like you're going about having this debate, I'd ask you not to do so.

Politely.

It's been addressed repeatedly in the many KotLT threads, which is where this discussion should be moved instead of continuing to threadjack R+L=J.

Yes, I'm sure there's some extremely hollow, baseless supposition, supported by nothing more than whimsy and wonder.

Though I should take the time to say it could POSSIBLY have been Lyanna, but the odds are against it, and the people repping it being Lyanna REALLY need to work on their arguments.

They're abysmal.

[A Redeemed Hound]

Some minor details:

• 
  
• Ashara had violet eyes and blonde hair, like Targaryens. Ned could have said that they were Ashara´s sons.
  
• After birth, babies usually do not develop their adult eye color until they have 6 months or more. Impossible for Ned or Howland to decide which one was Targ, imagine that they choose the wrong one :blushing: ...
  
• Why twins? why not triplets? Octuplets? Octomom from Westeros? Ha ha. This fabricated theory about twins can be magnified by... :rolleyes:
  
  
  

1- Okay

2- This is a make believe pretend fantasy world. Don't apply real life biological realities to these books. How many kids that are the age of Bran, Sansa, Arya, etc. could actually do what the kids in the books are doing? It's all fantasy.

3- Why not indeed? Since any theory is fabricated, my theory of possible twims is no less believable than any other theory out there. Maybe Lyanna gave birth to a dragon? Maybe Jon Snow is a hermaprodite?

[Ramz]

1- Okay

2- This is a make believe pretend fantasy world. Don't apply real life biological realities to these books. How many kids that are the age of Bran, Sansa, Arya, etc. could actually do what the kids in the books are doing? It's all fantasy.

3- Why not indeed? Since any theory is fabricated, my theory of possible twims is no less believable than any other theory out there. Maybe Lyanna gave birth to a dragon? Maybe Jon Snow is a hermaprodite?

You're 100% right, the only problem there is that some theories (like the ones that are generally believed) have facts and claims anchored in reality to somewhat back them up, while others, like Lyanna being the Laughing Knight, Reed being jon's twin, or Jon being a tranny are baseless and ridiculous.

On a similar note, I would never walk into a room filled with scientists of the highest order, and give them my theory on how unicorns make the universe go round. Its unproven, and a theory, but its pretty gdamn stupid. ye dig?

[Paternalisme]

This is a deaf's dialog (if this expression exists in English).

Why fight over a theory no one believes in ?

Woodbyrne,

you said yourself you didn't believe in it.