The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

[Sidonie]

Jaime saw Jon in Winterfell (and many others that knew Rhaegar well). And he was not the only one. There was not a single hint there that Jon in any way resembled Rhaegar or any Targ.

Well, you can also argue that Jon was only 14 years-old at that time. Maybe as he matures, his facial structure will change, and he'll start to look more like a brown-haired, dark-eyed Rhaegar. Just a thought.

and would Jaime have even been introduced to Ned Stark's bastard?

[eivers]

Well, you can also argue that Jon was only 14 years-old at that time. Maybe as he matures, his facial structure will change, and he'll start to look more like a brown-haired, dark-eyed Rhaegar. Just a thought.

and would Jaime have even been introduced to Ned Stark's bastard?

It's mentioned pretty early on in Game of Thrones that Jon resembles Ned more than the other Stark children with the exception of Arya.

[Manakhkubar]

Well, you can also argue that Jon was only 14 years-old at that time. Maybe as he matures, his facial structure will change, and he'll start to look more like a brown-haired, dark-eyed Rhaegar. Just a thought.

and would Jaime have even been introduced to Ned Stark's bastard?

Rhaegar was still pretty young when he died. If he resembled Jon at the age of 20 because he is his father, this resemblance would be most probably already be present at the age of 14.

Introduced? I don't think so. But not hidden either. And Jaime, as we know him, would be interested to see the materialised shame of Eddard Stark. Tyrion who was still pretty young during the rebellion probably knew how Rhaegar looked like. He inspected Jon very well and came up with something like "you look much more Stark than your siblings". Robert, who still hates Rhaegar more than anything didn't notice either.

I just don't think Jon and Rhaegar looked very much alike. There is not a single hint in the book so far, and enough opportunity to drop some. But that is no real evidence against a R+L theory, in my opinion.

[Edward the Great]

I just don't think Jon and Rhaegar looked very much alike. There is not a single hint in the book so far, and enough opportunity to drop some. But that is no real evidence against a R+L theory, in my opinion.

Jon was not allowed to sit at the table with Jaime and Robert, so they have not gotten a very good look at Jon. Also, conveniently, Aemon was blind. Is that a hint or a red herring? I'm convinced that Martin deliberately throws lots of red herrings into the story.

[Aegon VI Blackfyre]

Jon was not allowed to sit at the table with Jaime and Robert, so they have not gotten a very good look at Jon. Also, conveniently, Aemon was blind. Is that a hint or a red herring? I'm convinced that Martin deliberately throws lots of red herrings into the story.

Maybe Ned's decision to have him at another table was partly out of fear that someone would notice. Of course Jon being a bastard was reason enough in itself, but who knows. Even if we knew this was part of Ned's thinking it wouldn't prove that Jon actually looks like Rhaegar, as Ned could just have decided to be safe even though he didn't see the resemblance himself.

That Jon looks like a Stark is not definitive either. I know several people that somehow look like the spitting image of both their parents.

[Lady Winter Rose]

That Jon looks like a Stark is not definitive either. I know several people that somehow look like the spitting image of both their parents.

Maybe because parents are similar to each other. Lyanna looked Northian, Rhaegar looked Valyrian. I highly doubt they are so similar to pass this similarity on Jon.

[History of Westeros]

People definitely need to stop assuming that Howland Reed is the only one who knows. There's no way Lyanna was alone while pregnant at the ToJ... I don't see Arthur Dayne doubling as a midwife. Apart from at least one person to help with the pregnancy/birth (Wylla the obvious most likely candidate), it's highly likely they had servants to cook for them or the like.

The Brown Ben Plumm/drop of dragon seems very likely to be foreshadowing. Jon, Tyrion or both will be liked by the dragons and that will be all the proof Dany needs.

Might be kinda funny if the dragons take to liking Jon before he learns about his parentage. That would cause some interesting reactions.

[eivers]

I don't know. If any knight could pull of being a midwife I think the Sword of the Morning could. :laugh:

[History of Westeros]

Jon is a Stark, if you don't get that by now I don't know how not.

Jon has a Wolf Sword, a Pet Wolf, Wolf Dreams, the Wolf temper and a Wolf personality. He is a Stark to such an extent he out-Starks the rest of the Stark children (though not by much when it comes to Arya/Bran).

The only debate is which parent he gets it from.

Jon will not become a Targayen, he will not become rider of any kind of dragon.

Why? Because he has Ghost already, what is he ment to do, hang Ghost in a harness from the bottom of the Dragon?

Because he has Longclaw and he wants to become a swordsmen worthy of his sword. All 3 of thoose plot points are rendered mute by Jon soaring around on the back of a Dragon.

Also I am fairly sure Bran of all people would know the difference between a winged snake and a Valryian Dragon.

I think these are good points. I think too few readers look at the story/character arcs and how those things are coming along. Those factors are huge.

[Axon]

I would enjoy watching Ghost chillin' on the back of a Dragon. Maybe we can get him some laser beams as well?

[Aegon VI Blackfyre]

Jon won't need to ride a dragon - he'll just warg with it. :wacko:

[History of Westeros]

I think these are good points. I think too few readers look at the story/character arcs and how those things are coming along. Those factors are huge.

Then again he may be so Stark just to set up the less intensely-studious readers for a huge shock. Certainly can't dismiss that possibility entirely.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

Jon won't need to ride a dragon - he'll just warg with it. :wacko:

Actually, Ghost will warg into the dragon, just as he's been warging into Jon from time to time. It is known.

[KingSnow]

Actually, Ghost will warg into the dragon, just as he's been warging into Jon from time to time. It is known.

Ghost wargs into Jon, and Jon wargs into a dragon.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

Ghost wargs into Jon, and Jon wargs into a dragon.

Bran wargs into Hodor who wargs into Ghost, who wargs into Jon, who wargs into a dragon, who wargs into Dany, and they all have a massive psychic interspecific orgy.

Their love-child is sent back in time, to the Tower of Joy. That explains Jon's parentage.

[History of Westeros]

Bran wargs into Hodor who wargs into Ghost, who wargs into Jon, who wargs into a dragon, who wargs into Dany, and they all have a massive psychic interspecific orgy.

Their love-child is sent back in time, to the Tower of Joy. That explains Jon's parentage.

Finally someone has it all figured out! There's no chance this isn't exactly how it went.

[bobbyboy]

Finally someone has it all figured out! There's no chance this isn't exactly how it went.

:lol:

so Jon is his own father?!? jeez, it was so easy, it perfectly explains his Stark's look!!

[tuthmoses]

I'm currently rereading the series and (i have to say its even better the second time around)- expecially since I'm coming at it with this theory in my head ... I'm only on like the first or second cat chapter at the mo but it seems more and more clear that the R + L = J theory is spot on ... its almost blatently obvious in fact ... just so many hints all over the place - even very subtle things that have not necessarily been mentioned here - like in the chapter where ned and robert go into the crypt below winterfell - there is a line "Ned loved her with all his heart" (lyanna)and then in the chapter I'm reading now (just two chapters later) "Whoever his mother was (jons mother) Ned must have loved her fiercly" .... might not sound like much but before that all cats thoughts were of how ned banged some random wench on the road or what not. The only woman other than cat that the book ever states that ned loved is Lyanna - and that is stated just two chapters before so its still fresh in the readers mind at the time.

I don't buy the willa suggestion it is most definately just a cover, besides wasn't she his wet nurse? and it says in the same chapt that jons wet nurse came to winterfell with him and there is certainly no hint that ned loved jons wetnurse 'fiercly or with all his heart' - the ashara dayne thing is on the outer verges of possibility, her suicide and what not might go someway to explaining ned's anger but it doesn't really fit. Surely it fits better with the fact that Ned killed her brother.

My money is defo on the R+L theory especially considering all this talk about his parents comes so soon after the Lyanna crypt chapter. I mean come on Raeygar and Lyanna ran off together .... are we supposed to believe that nothing happened between them? ... I mean why did Lyanna die so? A fever? .... in a bed of blood ... with the kingsguard protecting her rather than viserys and dany ... i mean come on how obvious does it have to be? 14 years ago jon is 14 ... not once does ned call him his son ... just his blood ... promise me ned promise me .... mormont's crow calling jon king etc come on ...

[bobbyboy]

I'm little confused about the Tower of Joy(sorry if it's been answered 100 times): Ned remember (in a dream) that Rhaegar named it the "Tower of Joy": so, is this an hidden place were Rhaegar used to go(to play harp or whatever) even before the "abduction" of Lyanna and a lot of people, including Ned, knew of it, or Rheagar named it that way only after the "abduction" and Ned learnt about it only when he's searching for his sister?? and in this case who tell Ned that Rhaegar called it "the Tower of Joy"? wasn't it a super secret? I doubt Rhaegar would go around telling "oh, yeah, right now I'm chillin out with the wolf-chick in the tower of joy".

Anyway if is named that way after the abduction, probably it's not an abduction at all....

[SFDanny]

I'm little confused about the Tower of Joy(sorry if it's been answered 100 times): Ned remember (in a dream) that Rhaegar named it the "Tower of Joy": so, is this an hidden place were Rhaegar used to go(to play harp or whatever) even before the "abduction" of Lyanna and a lot of people, including Ned, knew of it, or Rheagar named it that way only after the "abduction" and Ned learnt about it only when he's searching for his sister?? and in this case who tell Ned that Rhaegar called it "the Tower of Joy"? wasn't it a super secret? I doubt Rhaegar would go around telling "oh, yeah, right now I'm chillin out with the wolf-chick in the tower of joy".

Anyway if is named that way after the abduction, probably it's not an abduction at all....

All good questions, bobbyboy, but there are no answers as of yet to most of it. There is no indication when Rhaegar names the tower the "Tower of Joy" or if he had ever been there before. The name does tend to support the idea that it wasn't an abduction, but there is no way to be sure. I guess it is possible that he names the tower that because he gets such sadistic enjoyment from his imprisonment of Lyanna, but that would be so far out of character from what we are told about Rhaegar from anyone but Robert. As to who told Ned Rhaegar named the tower that, that is a very good question and my money is on the non-Howland Reed part of "they" that found Ned holding Lyanna's body. Although, it is possible Lyanna herself tells Ned this information, but I find it hard to believe she spent the last few remaining moments of her life imparting such nuggets to her brother.