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Lady Blackfish

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

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bold emphasis added

Notice that Ned explicitly says in his thoughts to himself that he keeps the promises (plural by the way) that he made to Lyanna while she lay dying. So, it seems very likely he did not promise to put Jon on the throne in order to make a dying Lyanna feel better and then felt bad about breaking his promise by not doing so for the next fourteen years. Instead he says to himself he promised her something that he did for those fourteen years, and he paid a price in doing so.

First, I'd just like to say that I wholeheartedly support R+L=J. To me, it makes by far the most sense out of all the other theories behind Jon Snow's parentage. I just don't buy that he's Ned's bastard, because I can't see Ned ever cheating on his wife like that, even if they'd only just been married.

Anyway, I'm a little intimidated by the 20+ pages of the previous thread (and that was the eighth incarnation of this topic! :shocked:), but I just wanted to throw in a quick two cents about what Lyanna asked Ned to promise her. Maybe she made him promise not to tell Robert the truth about Jon, because she knew Robert probably would have killed the boy. That might be too simple a promise to explain why Ned was so haunted, but by doing so he was essentially lying to his best friend and his king.

I dunno, just throwing it out there. I'm probably wrong.

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Well one reason that they may not have said that R+L=J is that one of the reasons for going to war with the Targaryens was that Rhaegar had "kidnapped" Lyanna, to then reveal that she was not kidnapped could have been a major hit against the campaign (although there were lots of other reasons to get rid of Aerys besides this...) But it's possible Lyanna made Ned promise not to say anything in order to protect Jon and the Stark family, albeit this would be at the expense of Rhaegar... so it is difficult to say.

Just wanted to add another bit to the 20 million or posts on this topic already, haven't actually been through the other threads, but my friend and I have discussed this endlessly and this theory definitely seems very likely...

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bold emphasis added

Notice that Ned explicitly says in his thoughts to himself that he keeps the promises (plural by the way) that he made to Lyanna while she lay dying. So, it seems very likely he did not promise to put Jon on the throne in order to make a dying Lyanna feel better and then felt bad about breaking his promise by not doing so for the next fourteen years. Instead he says to himself he promised her something that he did for those fourteen years, and he paid a price in doing so.

I didn't remember this passage, and I was wrong, even though him breaking his word would still make the most sense to me. I knew I shouldn't have posted.

Of course this does not tell us what promises he made, though.

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If Lyanna made Ned promise to make sure Jon was okay 'til he was grown, it's not impossible that Ned saw letting Jon go to the wall as breaking that promise.

Yes, Jon was technically an adult who could make that decision and yes there were good reasons for it... but Jon was too young to really know what the Watch was, and Ned was old enough to know that Jon was signing his life away to something that he didn't fully understand.

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Well one reason that they may not have said that R+L=J is that one of the reasons for going to war with the Targaryens was that Rhaegar had "kidnapped" Lyanna, to then reveal that she was not kidnapped could have been a major hit against the campaign (although there were lots of other reasons to get rid of Aerys besides this...) But it's possible Lyanna made Ned promise not to say anything in order to protect Jon and the Stark family, albeit this would be at the expense of Rhaegar... so it is difficult to say.

Just wanted to add another bit to the 20 million or posts on this topic already, haven't actually been through the other threads, but my friend and I have discussed this endlessly and this theory definitely seems very likely...

Reveal how? Lyanna can't get on facebook and tell everyone she wasn't kidnapped. Regardless of weather or not she was kidnapped the only way to avoid a war is if she is in Kings Landing and leaves with Brandon(or convinces Brandon to leave) when he rides in calling for Rhaegar's head. Once Aerys murders a member of a great house, war is inevitable, regardless of the kidnapping. "Sorry my dad killed your Brother and Father Ned, but Lyanna wants to be with me, so you and Robert need to take your army and go home k?" Isn't exactly going to fly as an explanation.

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Reveal how? Lyanna can't get on facebook and tell everyone she wasn't kidnapped. Regardless of weather or not she was kidnapped the only way to avoid a war is if she is in Kings Landing and leaves with Brandon(or convinces Brandon to leave) when he rides in calling for Rhaegar's head. Once Aerys murders a member of a great house, war is inevitable, regardless of the kidnapping. "Sorry my dad killed your Brother and Father Ned, but Lyanna wants to be with me, so you and Robert need to take your army and go home k?" Isn't exactly going to fly as an explanation.

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Hey, long time lurker posting for the first time here! And this is my first time posting on any internet message board ever, not just this one, so I apologize in advance if I'm making any obvious/ boneheaded mistakes here (please be patient with me!)

Anyway, I support the whole R+L=J thing too, and think it will come to play a vital part in the story.

Some other posers have speculated that if Ned knew Lyanna had voluntarily run off with Rhaegar he still would have raised his banners and declared war on the targs. I disagree.

From what I got from Ned's POV chapters, it seemed that his motive for going to war was not so much revenge or even self preservation but his belief that Aery's insanity and cruelty made him a bad king and put the whole realm at risk. During the aftermath of Aerys's murder of Brandon, Aerys was threatening the realm and Rhaegar was nowhere to be found. If Rhaegar would have come back, explained what had happened with Lyanna, and taken over as king for his father, then I would bet money Ned would have been willing to negotiate peace with him. Not only would not going to war save countless lives, but, from Ned's perspective, Rhaegar would be the "rightful" King by blood.

Furthermore, Ned would never want to hurt Rhaegar, because doing so would cause pain to his beloved sister who was, after all, Rhaegar' wife (I'm assuming.) Robert would have surely still wanted war to get back at Rhaegar, but something tells me that John Arryn and Ned could have somehow talked him out of it.

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Do any of you believe that Bran and Rickon knows the truth, but don't remember?

When Ned die Bran dreams about him:

“I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts.Father was there, and we talked. He was sad"

“And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.

“It was something to do about Jon, I think.”

And Rickon have the same dream.

Maybe later the 3 eyes crow will help him remember the conversation.

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Do any of you believe that Bran and Rickon knows the truth, but don't remember?

When Ned die Bran dreams about him:

And Rickon have the same dream.

Maybe later the 3 eyes crow will help him remember the conversation.

Bran is slowly moving beyond Jon's reach and Rickon is what? 4? Confirmation of R+L=J will almost have to come from Howland Reed. No one else can speak credibly on the subject. If R+L=J isn't true then it's possible that Jon will meet his birth mother or one of her relatives who knows the truth. Here's a hint, look for someone with the last name Dayne.

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There are many, many theories about how Ned found out where Lyanna was, but no one knows for sure. My personal favorite is that Ashara was at the siege of Storm's End when Ned got there and she tells him. It better explains her suicide, to me anyway, if she feels guilty for bringing Ned and Ser Arthur together.

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I actually like the idea that Ned has a bastard out there and he's been raised by the Dayne family.

Sadly, the character of Ned isn't old enough.

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I actually like the idea that Ned has a bastard out there and he's been raised by the Dayne family.

Sadly, the character of Ned isn't old enough.

I do too, really. And Ned seems like a nice kid. I hope we get to see more of him. Ashara was his aunt according to what we're told, right? Apparently there was still some affection for Ned Stark in the Dayne family if they named a kid after him (or, one assumes, at least not anger at him otherwise they'd avoid the name).

In general, I want to find out more about the Daynes. It seems to me they'll have some role in the battle with the Others, and of course, they could certainly clarify much regarding Ned, Lyanna and the TOJ.

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i suppose we might find all these answers in ADWD

ROTFLMAO

GRRM doesn't give answers.

In all seriousness, we do know that Jon will learn about his parentage, I just think Jon's going to find Howland. Not the other way around.

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ROTFLMAO

GRRM doesn't give answers.

In all seriousness, we do know that Jon will learn about his parentage, I just think Jon's going to find Howland. Not the other way around.

That doesn't make much sense really. Jon's the Lord Commander of the Wall right now, he doesn't really have the luxury of riding off to talk with the lords of the North.

For that matter, what motive would Jon even have for going to find Howland Reed?

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That doesn't make much sense really. Jon's the Lord Commander of the Wall right now, he doesn't really have the luxury of riding off to talk with the lords of the North.

For that matter, what motive would Jon even have for going to find Howland Reed?

If the others are a going to be a serious threat to Westeros and the Wall is currently keeping the others OUT of westeros, I think it's safe to assume that the Wall isn't going to be standing very much longer. Hell we even have a story about a magic horn that can destroy the Wall. It's coming down. People will flee south.

I don't think that Jon's going to actually go looking for Reed, I just think his POV is going to end up moving to Reed.

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Jon was burned by fire, he does not have the blood of a dragon.

Targaryens were not immune to being burnt by fire, so Jon being being burnt doesn't prove anything either way. What happened to Dany at the end of GoT with her dragons was a circumstantial miracle, to do with the same magic that hatched the dragon eggs.

If the others are a going to be a serious threat to Westeros and the Wall is currently keeping the others OUT of westeros, I think it's safe to assume that the Wall isn't going to be standing very much longer. Hell we even have a story about a magic horn that can destroy the Wall. It's coming down. People will flee south.

I don't think that Jon's going to actually go looking for Reed, I just think his POV is going to end up moving to Reed.

I know the Wall's going to have to come down, that's a given, but Greywater Watch is at the very southern end of the North, between Moat Cailin and the Twins. I just don't see Jon making his way that far south. I'd say Winterfell would be as far as he would probably get.

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