The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

[nim]

Yes, let's. Although it was a bit fun to argue about ^_^

Sorry if I've wasted space on this already extremely long thread!

[Whatever]

no... N+L=J is another neverending theory :D

[nevermore]

I know that N + L = J isn't really taken that seriously, and I don't think it's the case either, but I don't think Ned's honour as a Stark should be a compelling reason why its not possible. I mean, yea, Ned is a character who was renown for his honour, but he's not cold-as-ice Stannis. I think Ned's honour is more based on keeping his word and promises. He knew that all of Robert's kids were actually Jaime's, and he still didn't tell Robert. He also killed Lady :stunned: (maybe I'm just being petulant on this point), and despite all our speculation, Ned himself says that Jon is his own bastard.

well its just out of character, which is the reason i like asoiaf because all the characters do as they have been built up as, even to their deaths. Varys and Littlefinger are unpredictable because we don't know their story or motivation most of the time so they don't count, for instance there hasn't been even a hint of incest between the 2 Starks so the groundwork isn't there, so if N + L = J it would ruin the characters because it just isn't likely, but everything built up in the first book does suggest Jon isn't Ned's though, because he is honourable first and foremost so that is already out of character so it's believable that he has been protecting a R + L = J relationship. I take this stance because really anything could happen in the story, like Varys guilt ridden because of Ned's death which he could have averted deciding he wants to kill the whole court or something, you expect that to happen?

Hm, good point. I don't think Ned ever explicitly says "Jon Snow is my bastard". Although...if Jon isn't actually his son, he's been dishonest to his family and to Jon. If Jon IS his son, then he really has fathered a bastard. Either way, it's sort of a mark against his "honour", and shows that he doesn't have rigid rules in life about what is right and what is wrong (like bedding his own sister, which for the record, I don't actually think is the case :) )

obviously both are dishonourable but cheating on your wife which requires you to give in to your base desires, or giving up honour for the sake of others, which is worse? you can see that morally the second choice is better. Unless you believe that cheating on your wife is okay :smileysex:

[israfel070]

Couldn't resist checking into the flagship flame war thread of the board... hey all long time no see (has it been 2 years??)

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

So I guess that about sums it up! Rhaegar and Lyanna are almost certainly Jon's parents, there is lots of textual evidence, it fits all of the various pieces together, it is quite poetic, and other possibilities for Jon's parentage, while feasible, simply do not measure up. It's been a good run, guys! Admin, I think you can close this thread. We've come to a conclusion. Hooray!

[Save the direwolf!]

So I guess that about sums it up! Rhaegar and Lyanna are almost certainly Jon's parents, there is lots of textual evidence, it fits all of the various pieces together, it is quite poetic, and other possibilities for Jon's parentage, while feasible, simply do not measure up. It's been a good run, guys! Admin, I think you can close this thread. We've come to a conclusion. Hooray!

So we can now move on to the other R+L=J (Robert+Lyanna=Jon) ;)

[nevermore]

uuuhh, unlikely to be Robert+Lyanna=Jon I'd say, firstly they were betrothed not married and since northerners are dutiful peoples I don't see Lyanna breaking tradition and sleeping with Robert before marriage, she aint no Cersei. Also the timing don't fit I don't think.

[Save the direwolf!]

uuuhh, unlikely to be Robert+Lyanna=Jon I'd say, firstly they were betrothed not married and since northerners are dutiful peoples I don't see Lyanna breaking tradition and sleeping with Robert before marriage, she aint no Cersei. Also the timing don't fit I don't think.

yes, it was a joke. But when I very first saw the equation r+l=j, i thought r was robert for a short time

[Phantomwriter05]

Reading all these posts have been really enjoyable ... and filled me with interesting theories.

I have a feeling that when the Wall comes down (Well if the wall comes down) That John is going to pull back what's left of his men to somewhere out of the "Gift." And into Stark lands.

From there John will learn somehow from one of Robb's Northmen crossing the neck that he's the heir of Winterfell. From there when he calls the Banners, that's when Howland Reed arrives and in forms him that R+L=J.

Also I Think that Cersei and Jamie have more in common with the Targs than Tyrion.

Both of the Golden Twins show spells of madness and Cersei has shown a distrubing love of Wildfire and sex with famiily members.

I think my theories rest on Jamie being visited by Joanne's spirt in AFfC in which she tells Jamie Tywin's dreams. And when Jamie consuls her that both he and Cersei have lived up to that ... she cries.

It could be because she is weeping for the irony that both have achived Tywin's dreams and yet they're not his children. Because didn't Joanne hangout and was friends with Dany's mom and The Princess of Dorne until she became pregnant with the twins? So it could be plausible that the mad king had sex with his sister's best friend and his best friend's wife and together created the Golden twins.

While Tyrion who is deformed and ugly (BTW Tyrion is born from Incest as well since Joanne and Tywin were first cousins, which actually could explain his birth defects.) is Tywin's only child ... which is why he is so bitter and maybe in denial about a possible affair.

The tragedy and Irony of all that would play into Jamie being one of the heads of the Dragon and The twins being Dany's Brother and Sister.

[nevermore]

I hope that what you suggest isn't true, because it would really suck if it is. The thing with Jon being R+L=J serves a purpose in the story and there has been hints of it, if Cersei and Jaime are targs, how does that change anything? Also the incest thing were probably done because it was a tradition, look at Daenerys, she hasn't shown any hereditary condition which makes her want to have incest, so Cersei + Jaime is just what it seems, forbidden love. Also I think Tywin hates Tyrion because he killed the love of his life and he's an ugly dwarf, he probably could have loved him if he was a Jaime look-a-like, but if he is a targ which is more likely than Jaime and Cersei because of his love of dragons and because he's the one going to see Dae. But yeah, too many hidden origins spoil the story, would make it ridiculous if 4 major characters come from union of different people.

[Phantomwriter05]

I hope that what you suggest isn't true, because it would really suck if it is. The thing with Jon being R+L=J serves a purpose in the story and there has been hints of it, if Cersei and Jaime are targs, how does that change anything? Also the incest thing were probably done because it was a tradition, look at Daenerys, she hasn't shown any hereditary condition which makes her want to have incest, so Cersei + Jaime is just what it seems, forbidden love. Also I think Tywin hates Tyrion because he killed the love of his life and he's an ugly dwarf, he probably could have loved him if he was a Jaime look-a-like, but if he is a targ which is more likely than Jaime and Cersei because of his love of dragons and because he's the one going to see Dae. But yeah, too many hidden origins spoil the story, would make it ridiculous if 4 major characters come from union of different people.

I think that Tryions love of Dragons serves only as a way to teach Dany how to train them. (Because he has read almost every book on them.)

Tryion has way to much of Tywin in him and his nature to simply say that his love of Dragons tops everything.

The Twins have very little to no nature of house Lannister, in fact Jamie's skill with a blade goes against the gentics which is that the Lannisters are not accounted amongst the great warriors in Westros. (Tywin lost almost every battle to Robb and actually never won many battles with out help.)

Cersei's and Joffery's style of rulling matches up with Aryes Despitism on the thrown.

I think alot of people love Tryion and they love Dany, so they want them to be related, but the evidence is shown that it's the twins that have the Targ nature and signs.

I think that Tyrion as well as the twins being Targs is all in the same vein of usless secret orgins, but I think it would still serve it's purpose on a personal front.

[Whatever]

A+J=C&J ...no way. really. it's just pure speculation, it doesn't make any sense and it has no place in the story's general plot. Really, i like theories, but it don't think that's the case. And then, incest is not a genetic thing, depends on the way somebody is raised. If you teach a child incest is wrong, there are few possibilities he/she will do it. If you take a child and you raise him in the belief that marry his sister is a right, holy thing to do, because they are a superior race and they can't have sex with "inferiors", he will believe you.

The A+J=T theory makes more sense. (im not saying i believe it, b/c i like tyrion being tywin's son)

[nevermore]

I think that Tryions love of Dragons serves only as a way to teach Dany how to train them. (Because he has read almost every book on them.)

Tryion has way to much of Tywin in him and his nature to simply say that his love of Dragons tops everything.

The Twins have very little to no nature of house Lannister, in fact Jamie's skill with a blade goes against the gentics which is that the Lannisters are not accounted amongst the great warriors in Westros. (Tywin lost almost every battle to Robb and actually never won many battles with out help.)

Cersei's and Joffery's style of rulling matches up with Aryes Despitism on the thrown.

I think alot of people love Tryion and they love Dany, so they want them to be related, but the evidence is shown that it's the twins that have the Targ nature and signs.

I think that Tyrion as well as the twins being Targs is all in the same vein of usless secret orgins, but I think it would still serve it's purpose on a personal front.

exactly what 'whatever' said, i never said he is a targ just that he is more likely and the reason i say this because i think targs and dragon/fire have a bond in magic-genetic level so Tyrion would be naturally drawn to dragons. Also Tyrion has literally no physical traits of Tywin, he is a dwarf with mismatched eyes, if any a character could be said to be different to his parents it would be Tyrion and if you speak of mental traits i would disagree as well because his personality comes from his upbringing; melancholy of his wife (Tysa?) and directness because he has to face the fact he is different and his cunning because that is the only thing that has been keeping him alive, none of which are Tywin-like (he is cold and calculating, everyone bows in fear of him). Also Jaime's talent of being warrior is silly comparison for genetics, maybe Lannisters who have been on hard times until Tywin finally got enough money to get a decent master-of-arms so all other Lannisters didn't have the privilege of being taught by a good teacher, but really genetic's isn't end all for all mastery, dedication to an art is also important. Moreover, Tywin's performance in battle is no indication of his performance as a fighter, he didn't lead the charges, just issued order from the rear. Also your example of Cersei Joffery rule is again no sign of Aryes genetics, you don't need a gene to make you a spoilt brat or a spiteful harpy.

Now to explain why i would not want any Lannister being targs, if we find out that they are targs in the book, it has to be in some way addressed, so it's not some 'useless secret origin'. If George somehow reveals to Cersei she is a targ maybe she would run over to Danerys and join her or try to, it effects the characters and makes stupid side tracks happen and lengthens the book, it would not add to the story in anyway and really things would be easier and more believable if it did not happen. Of course that is my opinion, you are still cool if you disagree with me :P .

[howland_reed]

In the new House of Stark featurette for the upcoming Game of Thrones series, the clip shows that even in the TV show, GRRM is skirting around actually calling Jon, Ned's son.

Check the clip here from 2:55 and on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4sTrjgDacI

GRRM: "also living in his household is Jon Snow, a bastard"

Ned: "and you are a Stark. You may not have my name, but you have my blood."

Jon: "is my mother alive?"

Ned: "next time we see each other...I'll talk about your mother." (and Sean Bean gives off this look that it'd be a huge relief to let off his chest) -- I make note of this cause obviously Jon's mother is of somewhat importance for Ned not to tell him outright. If his mother were just Wylla as GRRM later alludes to, there'd really be no point in holding back telling Jon this "big secret."

To me, the R+L=J theory just has too many hints and circumstantial evidence to be true, and almost zero quotes or direct evidence that disprove it. IMO, the mystery now is not whether R+L=J is true, but how his lineage will be revealed in the books, and what purpose it'll serve if he were found to be a Targaryen..

[Gilgafresh the Bling]

I noticed the same thing, howland_reed, and was eventually going to post something about it. Now I don't have to. :thumbsup:

It seemed to be a very deliberate effort on GRRM's part to use the indefinite article there. You can almost detect a slight pause before he says "a bastard" and then he says it quickly (and quieter?). One could argue that George is just messing with us, but the absence of the more natural (and in-story) description of "Ned's bastard" is telling, IMO.

Good stuff...

[nevermore]

sweet, I really want to know how this changes things, will he get to read his own prophecy? anyway I think this theory is now 95% realised, without outright suggesting, the build up all points to it.

[Phantomwriter05]

Doesn't the Timeline support R+L=J?

Isn't it Cannon that Ned and his northren and riverland men were charging south to Dorne while Robert was waiting for Cersei to arrive?

Where would Ned have time to impregnant Ashara?

I don't think that Ned was gone for nine months down south ... and didn't Babyt Jon beat Catelyn and Robb to Winterfell?

So like I said the timeline really doesn't support anything other than R+L=J.

Unless it took Cersei, Jamie, Tryion, and Barristan nine months to find Kings Landing.

*Everyone looking at the map*

Selmy: I know where we are ... It's a shortcut!

Tryion: I think you got it upside down ...

Selmy: I won the joust at ten, I can read a map!

*Meanwhile Jamie and Cersei wave awkwardly to Ned and baby Jon in Dorne*

LOL!

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

Doesn't the Timeline support R+L=J?

Isn't it Cannon that Ned and his northren and riverland men were charging south to Dorne while Robert was waiting for Cersei to arrive?

Where would Ned have time to impregnant Ashara?

I don't think that Ned was gone for nine months down south ... and didn't Babyt Jon beat Catelyn and Robb to Winterfell?

So like I said the timeline really doesn't support anything other than R+L=J.

Unless it took Cersei, Jamie, Tryion, and Barristan nine months to find Kings Landing.

*Everyone looking at the map*

Selmy: I know where we are ... It's a shortcut!

Tryion: I think you got it upside down ...

Selmy: I won the joust at ten, I can read a map!

*Meanwhile Jamie and Cersei wave awkwardly to Ned and baby Jon in Dorne*

LOL!

no need to stretch the evidence, or rule out other theories. the fact is, we don't know the whereabouts of Ashara or Lyanna at all until the Tower of Joy and just after. they could have been anywhere at any moment, and been impregnated by anyone.

that said, R+L=J does seem to fit the timeline the best. one of the many aspects of its overwhelming allure.

[PacificViking]

First Post, actually signed up for the forum to do join this conversation...

I am fairly firmly in the R+L=J camp, mostly because I came to this conclusion on my own, and when I asked Reddit about it I was pointed to the massive debate that has apparently been raging in the community for a while and on this board since at least 2005.

I've been reading the comments and would like to address a couple of contentions that have been brought up against the theory.

1. GRRM wouldn't be that obvious about Jon being a Targ, and Parris doesn't think it is likely and she might have some "inside info"

I wouldn't say that GRRM's portrayal of Jon is in any respect Targish, Jon is written as a true Stark, in both looks and Character. Martin has invested a lot of ink to show us just how worthy of the Stark Name Jon is. From mentoring Bran at the execution of the the watchmen in the first chapter, his receiving of his own Direwolf, to his close relationship with Arya, to his compulsion to abandon his vows to assist Robb in securing his Kingship in the North. Jon is always shown to be a man of strict honor, much like Eddard, much like Robb. He is torn even when he must play the turn cloak and to take actions in order to sell the wildlings on it. Jon's need for honor might even run deeper than Eddard's ever did as he was willing to play at dishonor in order to better serve The Watch.

However there also exists the possibility that Jon's need to maintain honor ran just as deep as Eddard's, as perhaps Ned played at dishonor by claiming the son of his sister and another man, whom I believe to be Rhaegar, as his own. Claiming to have fathered bastard, and thus saving him from the death the surely awaited any child of the Targ house at the hands of Robert, let alone the horrors that would await a child of Rhaegar, that Robert could only have viewed as the result of the kidnap rape of his future wife and woman he loved.

As to Mr. Martin's lovely partner he himself has said she is not privy to important information that has yet to be revealed in the story and that she doesn't really ask. So aside from sharing a bed with the author she may have as little clue as to Jon's true origins as we do.

2. Jon doesn't have Dragon Dreams and therefore can not be a Targ.

I'm not going to argue that Jon might be having Dragon dreams, he's not. I am not going to claim that He's too far north or that the magic of winterfel and the wall block those links and that is why those dreams haven't come, or that it is the connection to Ghost that has kept those dreams at bay, those ideas all seem a little absurd. What I will contend is that having Dreams of dragons does not a Targaryen make, and the having of those dreams while possibly significant in others areas (Tyrion perhaps, though I'm not sold on Tyrion as a Targ) I have not read nor seen any evidence that ONLY Targs have Dragon dreams, it is true that the only characters we have seen or been told that have had dragon dreams have been Targs with the exception of Tyrion, but saying that no low born child ever dreamed of dragons, or that if he did he must be some Targ bastard or the result of some Targ bastard a hundred years ago is a hard argument to make. Dreams while they can be used for important story telling do not have to be the end all be all of confirmations and denials.

3. Martin Wouldn't Make Jon a Targ because he has to end up with Daney and become one of the heads of the Dragon, and Incest is bad.

Incest bad... Yes. Does this mean Jon can't become one of the Heads as Daney's nephew? No. First off, even if Jon and Daney do "hook up" and start copulating like rabbits, aunt and nephew in the context of the culture this world is built on (early steel age/feudal Europe) isn't incest, it might be a little too close for comfort for some people in the Real World and in Westeros, but strictly speaking is not Incest. Hell there are places in the United States that allow first cousin marriage in the 21st century. Secondly Daney is barren or at least unable to birth a living child, if Mirri Maz Duur is to be believed. This means that even if Jon and Daney were Brother and Sister (at worst, if Jon is Aryes' son as some of suggested, they are only half siblings) the likelihood of a three headed, two toed, cross eyed, hemophiliac growing in that scorched earth Daney calls a uterus is fairly out of the question. Daney's infertility means that in order for the Targ line to continue on she would need a hale and hearty sibling or nephew or cousin to carry on the line for her. Or after her own death and the deaths of the two as yet unidentified, heads of the dragon the line would die out, more permanently than the real dragons had prior to the funeral pyre.

4. If the House of Stark is to survive the return of Dragons to Westeros this seems like the only real avenue, the bond of blood between the two houses. This is the classic peace maker in the feudal system, marriage pacts that tie two houses more securely together or make peace between two houses and ensure that each house's prosperity is linked inexorably to the prosperity of the other.

Daney at the moment hates the Starks for their support of Robert during the rebellion which killed nearly her entire family. How else can the Starks hope to forge an alliance/win a reprieve from the threat of flying dragons unless it is through the revelation that a key member of their house is in fact a Targ himself. Jon is both a Stark (which gives him the ability to be a Warg and with practice eventually control other animals like um.. I don't know dragons) and a Targ which makes him one of the Three heads of the Dragon and eventually a likely Dragon Rider, (bet those Warg abilities will come in hand when Victarion attempts to wrest control of the dragons with that horn of his)

5. This warg ability also leads to me believe that perhaps the third head may not be a true Targ at all. Bran is a warg and Rickon or Arya as they both have the potential to become Wargs themselves are candidates, of these Arya makes the most since as cousin marriage is not really frowned upon in this series. Though I find this last notion (5) to be a bit of a stretch, though possible.

[Shakey]

Hi. I'm new. Hello Forum.

I want to jump in (9 threads late). There are two key scenes, imho, and they both come form the first two books.

1)In GoT there were three kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, one of which was perhaps the best swordsman in the realm. One can be explained as a side mission. Two a rare event. But three kingsguard pretty much means they were physically guarding a member of the royal family. We know of nobody in that scene who is a member of the royal family. The member of the royal family must be in Lyanna's belly. Perhaps there was a character that was not mentioned, but that makes little sense for such an important scene.

2)In CoK Jamie & Catalyn recall the order of events that led to the death of Ned's father and brother (Catalyn's betrothed). One, they found out about Lyanna. Two, the went to Kings Landing instead of Riverrun. Three, they went into the Red Keep shouting for Rhaegar to die. Four, Aerys had them arrested for treason.

BTW, Ethan Glover (Brandon's squire) survived that event and may have some info as to what they "found out" about Lyanna.

Sidenote: Too bad Ned never advertised the ToJ. When Jamie gets in his face he could have responded, "Well, I killed Sir Arthur Dane. You're hero. Still think I'm soft?". Nobody ever says, "There goes Ned Stark, he killed the Sword of the Mourning!". haha