Please tell me who you see as the most interesting Villains in SF/F...

[The WaterDancer Knight]

I do believe that it's GRRM's plan to have Tyrion be the best villain of them all.

After his wedding night with Sansa there is no way Tyrion could ever be a villain. The the useless and stupid murder of Shea doesn't make him a vilain, just a pitiful whinny asshole.

[MinDonner]

Ah, come on, she did lie to try and get him killed. I'd be pretty pissed off about that myself.

[Alexia]

After his wedding night with Sansa there is no way Tyrion could ever be a villain. The the useless and stupid murder of Shea doesn't make him a vilain, just a pitiful whinny asshole.

Yes, I agree that he did the right, non-evil thing, with Sansa. However,

ADWD spoilers follow:

. That being said, I call villain based on that lovely little scene with Illyrio's slave girl.

I agree with Ent's theory that Tyrion, who started out one of the most sympathetic characters in the story, is destined to become THE cackling evil villain of the series. :)

Ah, come on, she did lie to try and get him killed. I'd be pretty pissed off about that myself.

I'd be pissed too (although I'm not quite sure his death was her goal but rather, her survival) but how does one think that Cersei would have reacted had Shae refused to testify?

[Grack21]

Oh my god, I forgot the Evil Chicken Which Is Not A Chicken! Best Villain Ever!

[Curethan]

...how does one think that Cersei would have reacted had Shae refused to testify?

Tyrion gave Shae some opportunity to explain herself - and I think her murder was in large part a side effect of finding her in his father's bed. More a crime of passion than cold blooded villainy. I think a redemption arc more likely than a slide into cackling eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil.

[MinDonner]

I'd much rather see Stannis have a Descent Into Villainry than Tyrion; Tyrion already has the "everyone thinks he's a kinslaying evil dwarf" arc to mirror his Richard III origins, and I think he's too smart and conflicted to go the full cackling route. What would he gain? Whereas Stannis's iron convictions and cold fanaticism are much more amenable to doing terrible things for what he believes to be the right reasons.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I'd much rather see Stannis have a Descent Into Villainry than Tyrion; Tyrion already has the "everyone thinks he's a kinslaying evil dwarf" arc to mirror his Richard III origins, and I think he's too smart and conflicted to go the full cackling route. What would he gain? Whereas Stannis's iron convictions and cold fanaticism are much more amenable to doing terrible things for what he believes to be the right reasons.

Except that Stannis isn't loved by the readership, whereas Tyrion is. It's a no contest if GRRM is going for the sympathetic villain route.

[Artas]

Sauron. We get such a great look into his psyche. We are shown how his life experiences have led him to be the incredibly complex yet distinct person. We finish the book feeling like we know him so well. It's almost like LOTR was a sweeping character study.

I do think Sauron is a great villain, actually. As you say (well, imply sarcastically), his character and motivations are hardly fleshed out and we don't ever see him appear "on screen", except for the brief glimpse Sam gets of the Eye in Mordor. But precisely for those reasons, he becomes all the more ominous. Tolkien really managed to get across the idea of a supernatural menace, a being of a completely different order than our humble hobbit heroes. (Sauron is, after all, something like a fallen angel.)

Some of my other favourite villains include:

Ineluki, the Stormking (Memory, Sorrow & Thorn) - In many ways the anti-Sauron (and that's no coincidence). Here we have a tragic villain whose grudge against humanity actually has a point. Like any self-respecting Big Bad Ineluki is seething with hatred and bent on genocide and destruction, but we can understand where he's coming from. Kudos to Tad Williams for pulling that off.

Johnny Dread (Otherland) - As another poster said, one of the most believable psychopaths in SF and Fantasy. The scene where he "hunts" a young woman in the Aerodromia simulation is riveting and revolting at the same time, because the reader is dragged into his sick mind and experiences his excitement. Loved how his past was fleshed out through the Calliope Skouros subplot.

Steerpike (Gormenghast) - The most brilliant mind in all of demented Gormenghast, working his way up the hierarchy through machiavellian plotting and brutal murder. His unfolding insanity is fascinating to witness.

Deacon Vorbis (Small Gods) - While Mr. Teatime is probably the most entertaining Discworld villain, I found Vorbis far more unsettling, because people like this really exist; cold, calculating minds that shrink back at nothing and unscrupulously manipulate other people's religious (or political) beliefs to further their own ends. How twisted must you be to wage holy wars without even believing in God?

Mordred (The Once and Future King) - Not an "impressive" personality as the others are, but despicable and tragic at the same time, a figure who is unable to free himself from his assigned role and has to play it out to the bitter end. I was especially struck by White's remark that Mordred was like a living grave to his mother Morgause, loathing her but continuing to fight her fights, even copying her mannerism and habits.

Mr Croup and Mr Vandemar (Neverwhere) - Entertaining and menacing at the same time.

As for "A Song of Ice and Fire", Littlefinger and Roose Bolton are great villains. I'd love to see Tyrion or Stannis, or even Daenerys, going over to the Dark Side.

[Fenryng]

One of the best things about GRRM's characters is that they do things which can be so easily construed or argued for as villainous, but we can and will passionately defend their actions anyway, because we like them. Morally, the Hound should die for what he did to Arya's sword-practicing playmate in book one, but I like him anyway. Jaime tried to kill Bran, but people love him also. Stannis is arguably my favorite character, but I know perfectly well I am in the distinct minority here.

Personally, I think that if I get emotionally invested in wanting some character dead or suffering, then the author has done their job.

Having said that, Littlefinger can up and die any God-damn time now, thankyouverymuch.

And yeah, I know this is more to young adult stuff, but I also liked Martel from Eddings's first Sparhawk series.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I do think Sauron is a great villain, actually. As you say (well, imply sarcastically), his character and motivations are hardly fleshed out and we don't ever see him appear "on screen", except for the brief glimpse Sam gets of the Eye in Mordor. But precisely for those reasons, he becomes all the more ominous. Tolkien really managed to get across the idea of a supernatural menace, a being of a completely different order than our humble hobbit heroes. (Sauron is, after all, something like a fallen angel.)

Sauron's motivations are fleshed out in one of Tolkien's essays (essentially Sauron wanted order, and believed that he alone could manage it). He's also a cunning manipulative bastard, especially in the Second Age.

That said, I think Tolkien's motivations for keeping Sauron off-screen is partly that he wanted to avoid people feeling sympathy for the devil, so to speak. Personalising Sauron opens the door for "alternative character interpretations".

[Renasko]

Every time I read this thread title on the main board, all I see is 'Tell me who you see', which makes me think of Bakker.

Surely the trick of a villain is to always be on your mind. Bakker wins with his No-God, the Consult and his ilk. Creepy as hell.

[Guinevere Seaworth]

Ineluki, the Stormking (Memory, Sorrow & Thorn) - In many ways the anti-Sauron (and that's no coincidence). Here we have a tragic villain whose grudge against humanity actually has a point. Like any self-respecting Big Bad Ineluki is seething with hatred and bent on genocide and destruction, but we can understand where he's coming from. Kudos to Tad Williams for pulling that off.

This and what Fenryng said. I love when an author portrayes someone as villanous, then you go into their heads and you understand that they have good reasons for doing what they did and actually sympathize with that person. I hated Jaime's guts initially, but getting inside his POV made him interesting. Not exactly a villian, but not a nice guy either.

Captain Kennit was a fascinating villian. Cruel, ambitious and smart, but he is an example of a bullied and abused child. I hated him for what he did, but at the same time I pitied him.

I have a soft heart for villians trying to reedeem themselves and I was actually angry at Abercrombie that had me thinking Logen Ninefingers was going to be redeemed but Abercrombie pulled the rug under my feet.

[Migey]

I loved Captain Kennit. He was fairly awesome, and his story line was one of the ones that made Liveships my favorate series by Hobb.

[Horatz]

John Dread is like a very eccentric artisan in many ways, which just accents the depth of his depravity and rage.

[Alexia]

I'd much rather see Stannis have a Descent Into Villainry than Tyrion; Tyrion already has the "everyone thinks he's a kinslaying evil dwarf" arc to mirror his Richard III origins, and I think he's too smart and conflicted to go the full cackling route. What would he gain? Whereas Stannis's iron convictions and cold fanaticism are much more amenable to doing terrible things for what he believes to be the right reasons.

Revenge on every man, woman (esp. that wife who killed Joff and left him holding the bag!), and child who ever looked down on him! Muah-ha-ha!

With Stannis, who I tend to find a fairly frightening character, I could see him go either way. He could start burning children and everyone who stands in his way, or he could end up sacrificing his own life for the greater good.

Anyway, why does it have to be just one? They could both end up as villains - hell, Stannis has been on the verge since the first book we met him in. :)

[Cantabile]

Sauron's motivations are fleshed out in one of Tolkien's essays (essentially Sauron wanted order, and believed that he alone could manage it). He's also a cunning manipulative bastard, especially in the Second Age.

I'm not sure if it's fair to consider content that was never in the actual work, and is just elaborated later on by the author.

[Mjolnir]

Guinevere Seaworth Wrote:

I have a soft heart for villians trying to reedeem themselves and I was actually angry at Abercrombie that had me thinking Logen Ninefingers was going to be redeemed but Abercrombie pulled the rug under my feet.

Abercrombie rends the throats of redemption plotlines with his teeth and spits upon their ruined corpses. I'm increasingly convinced that he does it for fun.

With regard to ASoIaF, I'm very interested to see how far GRRM'll take what felt to me in AFFC like Jaime's potential pathway to redemption.

I hope Tyrion doesn't end up all-out cackling evil. I've long had a lot of sympathy for Shae -- she just wants to survive and preferably be given awesome things with her looks as her only real advantage, and I totally agree that had she not agreed to testify against Tyrion, and make it good, Cersei would've made her very, very sorry -- but I hope her murder doesn't push him over the edge. I agree Stannis could go either way, but I'm not attached to him to the same degree.

Favourite villains? Well, there are so many ways to be fond of a villain. Littlefinger definitely falls into the "love to hate" category: I fucking hate him and hope he dies, but he's so awesome and so much fun to watch when he's at work [except when he's around the Stark women; then he's just damn creepy.] Cersei is up there too, for me: She does genuinely horrible things and I honestly don't want her to succeed, but her position is hard not to sympathize with. So I'm being asked to agree with this character I really think is a pretty vile person that no, she should not be defied great power because of her gender, while simultaneously being happy when her attempts to get more of that power are thwarted because I don't think she, specifically, should have it. It's a very complex villain-reader relationship Martin's got going on; I used to just hate the character when I was younger but now she's definitely one of my favourites.

And there are so many outside ASoIaF, and it's hard to list because they're all ace at different aspects of villainy.

[peterbound]

Did we say comics are allowed?

If so: the Governor from 'The Walking Dead' Twisted mother fucker

And i know it's sf/f but i can't help but throw in the Judge from Blood Meridian. He's the most chilling, creepy, disturbing villain i've ever read about.

[Galactus]

I'd much rather see Stannis have a Descent Into Villainry than Tyrion; Tyrion already has the "everyone thinks he's a kinslaying evil dwarf" arc to mirror his Richard III origins, and I think he's too smart and conflicted to go the full cackling route. What would he gain? Whereas Stannis's iron convictions and cold fanaticism are much more amenable to doing terrible things for what he believes to be the right reasons.

WHile I think it's heading that way I think that would in it's own way be just as much a cliché.

[Maia]

I wouldn't count the chairmaker in Use of Weapons either,

Eh, I would. Let's not forget the very memorable villain of "Wasp Factory" either. Banks can do villains... under certain circumstances that would be too spoilerific to reveal.

Anyway, I am seconding Brandin of Ygrath and Ineluki. And I have to mention Graves's Livia from "I, Claudius". IMHO, she was one of the most believable and genuinely frightening villains that I have encountered. I wanted Cersei to grow up to become her ;).