Defend Cersei as best you can

[evanesco75]

I agree completely about feeling disconnected from Cersei during her own POV. She was very different from the image built of her before, in earlier books. Her scene with Ned stands out: she seems clever, ruthless, and yes, brave. Her first meeting with Tyrion in ACoK is similar: there are times he seems afraid of her, notes to himself how a single misstep could land him in the dungeons or worse and we're meant to understand that a man as clever as Tyrion fears Cersei, and is intimidated by her (not just by virtue of her status as Queen, either). That line about her being able to smell fear indicated this to me.

And that's nearly subverted in AFFC. I understand that she's been through a lot (Joffrey's death especially), but the smug, short-sighted tone of her chapters keeps hammering a single point into the reader: She Is Going To Fail Because She's Incompetent, Vain and Blind to Reality.

And that's a bit skewed, really. The only chapter of hers I enjoyed in AFFC was with Taena, when they're in bed and she's trying to arouse herself via a series of violent, graphic images. There, you get a genuine glimpse of the real, disturbed, damaged person underneath, a person for whom sex is usually a tool for power. That, and her letter to Jaime (self serving or not, I truly liked the bit about how they'd entered the world together and would leave it so).

So yeah, there is a bias. And I don't feel it as much re Sansa either. Despite what she's been through, she seems wiser; GRRM is positioning her for something significant and in the end, she does always end up being 'saved' by some man, as it was in her favourite songs, ironically enough (I say ironic because such men consist of The Hound, Dontos, Tyrion and LF).

[Kate Poem]

Cersei was - is - sociopath, cruel, bad to the core woman with complexes: "I am lioness, I am better than my father, I am the greatest of the greatest QUEEN, my brother, my uncle, my councillors, everybody are traitors, my daughther-in-law MUST be old and ugly and she must bow and prostrate before me and call me Her Grace all the time and she must forbid everyone title her in any way etc. etc."

Queen Bona Sforza had brain and power.Cersei Lannister had nothing. Only sociopatic, big EGO.

She is'nt good mother. She was'nt good wife: she hated Robert. She killed him in cold blood. She was'nt faithful for anybody.

[Early Earl]

A word on incest:

It was pretty common in european medieval times, although maybe not brother and sister but certainly first-degree cousins.

It is not in itself reason for diseases even though half the european aristocracy was mad or sick at some point. The reason for that is that any genetical defect would be carried on through every generation because only some 50 families would marry each others offsprings. So naturally those diseases were more likely to break out.

Having sex with your sibling as such doesnt change your genes nor that of your kids it just passes on whatever mutation has occured in the past of your family.

Gay-sex was tabooed for a long time and still is in most parts of the world. SO? In my opinion any two individuals can do in their bedroom whatever they wish as long as it's not harming others and both or all partners consent.

[Ser Pistus]

Cersei was - is - sociopath, cruel, bad to the core woman with complexes: "I am lioness, I am better than my father, I am the greatest of the greatest QUEEN, my brother, my uncle, my councillors, everybody are traitors, my daughther-in-law MUST be old and ugly and she must bow and prostrate before me and call me Her Grace all the time and she must forbid everyone title her in any way etc. etc."

Queen Bona Sforza had brain and power.Cersei Lannister had nothing. Only sociopatic, big EGO.

She is'nt good mother. She was'nt good wife: she hated Robert. She killed him in cold blood. She was'nt faithful for anybody.

I think Cersei is changing, like many other characters. In the first 3 books, she has quite a fair amount of wits. She defeats Ned (okay, probably Hodor could have done that), but in Storm, she also outwits Tyrion!

In Feast, however, she descends unstoppably into madness.

[Chirios]

I think Cersei is changing, like many other characters. In the first 3 books, she has quite a fair amount of wits. She defeats Ned (okay, probably Hodor could have done that), but in Storm, she also outwits Tyrion!In Feast, however, she descends unstoppably into madness.

When did Cersei outwit Tyrion?

[Ser Pistus]

When did Cersei outwit Tyrion?

She accused Tyrion with regicide, organized the testimonies against him, and even removed Bronn from the picture. As a result, Tyrion was condemned and was thrown into the black cells to wait for the execution. I guess we must award this tilt to Cersei.

[em388480]

Why has no one tried to point out that Cersei's marriage is partially her own fault?

Sure, Robert was a drunken wreck, but she went in to her marriage knowing she didn't want it and set herself there. She opposed her husband publicly, and undermined his decisions and embarassed him. Rather than trying to 'make things work' or god forbid saying, "I won't have you cheating on me" her mindset was "I'll never love him, lemme fuck my brother rather than trying to make the best of my situation."

Cersei did nothing that was expected of her - and did her best to make things worse, and being Queen she thought she held power over everything, when her real role is to STFU and advise her husband in private and be supportive.

And politically inept is a complete understatement. She behaves/thinks as only an insane person could, isolating herself and attempting to murder anyone who so much as comes near her. She is a murderous schemer who trusts no one. When you have the Tyrells blatantly extending olive branches, and you swat them away publicly, she can't expect positive recourse.

[nukrow]

Take the conspiracy for the 'bloody wedding'. Cersei has probably been confidant to conspiracies like that her whole life. I wouldn't even call her a paranoid, just knows the game and the lengths people will go through to win the throne.

Many times she would judge someone as an enemy unfairly, but she did judge the Queen of Thorns, or whatever the old lady's name was, accurately. That old bag was truly her enemy and may have killed Cersei's child.

So I'm just going to call her a product of her place and time.

I also extend that courtesy to gang bangers.

[Pixi Penrose]

If you read about the psychology of sociopaths/psychopaths, you will often find that they had an overprotective mother, who is abused by an otherwise absent father. Noone claims that this is the only factor, and there are probably more physical factors as well as enviromental ones. You don't have to have seen many episodes og Criminal Minds or the likes to know, that a childs mutilation of animals are a strong indication that the child is moving towards becoming a sociopathic personality. Martin clearly uses the episode with the cat to show us that Joff certainly is a very sick person.

As for the Cersei-thing....Well, yes she is a woman, and has to fight with the cards she has been dealt as such. But that doesn't excuse the way she is treating people,using them and disposing of them like trash. She has obviously always been like this as the flashbacks where she pinches Tyrion as a baby tells us. I know that incest is frowned upon and worse, but I actually thought that the relationship she had with Jamie made medmore sympathetiv towards her.beacause it showed that she had the capacity to really love someone. Unfortunately that was only as long as he was perfect and agreed with her every thought:-(

The fact that she had the wolf killed is really quite logical: Bigass dog runs around menacing her kids(yes Joff'sone fault I know), so we slay the wolf to keep the kids safe. Not that strange, I think.

The incest: Yes it's weird, but they love eachother, and I have difficulty judging that.

Tyrion: I think Cersei is somewhat scared of Tyrion, because she doesn't undertsand him, and she hates weakness and sees him as weak, and as an embarrasment to the Lannisters. That's pretty bitchy in my book.

You can certainly explaine a lot of her awful behaviour with her upbringing and her marriage to Robert. Suffice it to say that one has to have a sociopathic stint fromthe beginning to evolve the way she has done. She has no epathy towards anyone other than her children, and as for that, she is not very nice to Tommen, whom she sees as weak!

No I'm never gonna like Cersei,although she has been dealt a pretty shitty hand in life, I agree with that.

With the possible exception of Edric Storm all of Roberts children were neglected and none of them ended up becoming sociopaths.

Edric Storm - Proud but kind to others.

Gendry - Stubborn, brave, and willing to sacrifice his life in service of the realm's smallfolk (when he joins the Brotherhood he's told he'll likely die).

Mya Stone - Serves the Eyrie, served Catelyn with patience and bravely and is a good friend to Sansa.

In the chapter when Tyrion first hears about the Red Wedding Cersei says that Robert once tried to punish Joffrey for torturing/mutilating/killing a cat. Cersei clearly knew Joffrey was guilty but threatened to kill Robert in his sleep if he did anything to punish the child. If this was a common pattern then it would suggest that Cersei's refusal to allow Robert to punish Joffrey for acts of cruelty did just as much if not more to create the monster that Joffrey was.

[Chirios]

She accused Tyrion with regicide, organized the testimonies against him, and even removed Bronn from the picture. As a result, Tyrion was condemned and was thrown into the black cells to wait for the execution. I guess we must award this tilt to Cersei.

Varys organized the testimonies against Tyrion, not Cersei, and the only reason she was able to do that was because Tywin had long since nerfed Tyrion so he wasn't even playing anymore. That wasn't outwitting, that was a suckerpunch.

[FatCatOberyn]

Tyrion: I think Cersei is somewhat scared of Tyrion, because she doesn't undertsand him, and she hates weakness and sees him as weak, and as an embarrasment to the Lannisters. That's pretty bitchy in my book.

Recognizing Tyrion as a threat was one of the few things Cersei did right. She does not hate him as much because of his weakness, as she does because he knows her weaknesses.

[Pixi Penrose]

Yes, good point!

Recognizing Tyrion as a threat was one of the few things Cersei did right. She does not hate him as much because of his weakness, as she does because he knows her weaknesses.

[Many and More]

Why has no one tried to point out that Cersei's marriage is partially her own fault?

Sure, Robert was a drunken wreck, but she went in to her marriage knowing she didn't want it and set herself there. She opposed her husband publicly, and undermined his decisions and embarassed him. Rather than trying to 'make things work' or god forbid saying, "I won't have you cheating on me" her mindset was "I'll never love him, lemme fuck my brother rather than trying to make the best of my situation."

Seriously? You think that a person in an arranged marriage with an abusive alcoholic should "try to make things work"? Because that always turns out so well in the real world. And you think it would have been helpful for Cersei to tell Robert "I won't have you cheating on me"? Well, to be fair, I suppose Robert might have choked to death on a chicken bone laughing at her, which would have solved her problem. Since Cersei can't leave her husband in the culture of Westeros, and obviously can't "make" him stop cheating on her and abusing her, her only logical recourse is to stay as far away from him as she possibly can, and discourage him from wanting to be near her, in any way that she can.

And I'd say that having the children of the man she loves, rather than adding to Robert's ever-increasing tally of offspring, is making the best of the situation.

Cersei did nothing that was expected of her - and did her best to make things worse, and being Queen she thought she held power over everything, when her real role is to STFU and advise her husband in private and be supportive.

And politically inept is a complete understatement. She behaves/thinks as only an insane person could, isolating herself and attempting to murder anyone who so much as comes near her. She is a murderous schemer who trusts no one.

If the people around Cersei are, like you, condemning her for "doing nothing that was expected of her", and telling her that her role as Queen is to shut the f*** up and be supportive, is it any wonder that she loses it and tries to have them all removed? That's hardly insane. It's a perfectly reasonable response.

Like they say, it ain't paranoia if everyone really is out to get you. What's bizarre is that it's not just most of the power players in Westeros who are out to get Cersei, but most of the book readers as well.

[nedfart]

They should have had marriage counseling with varys.

[dragginstoned]

Cersei and Joffery were the only true progressive forces looking forward to bring Westeros out of the dark ages and into a modern monarchy.

Between Cersei's idea that Westeros should have its own bank and Joff wanting a modern, trained national army, you have the beginings of a real nation state, rather than the pisswater backward looking reactionary veiws of such cretans as the Starks.

[HaraktheHirsute]

Cersei not a sociopath? How do you explain her twisting Tyrion's penis when he was a baby? Is that something children normally do to their infant siblings? How about willing to see innocent dwarfs killed just to see Tyrion dead? How about turning a blind eye to Joffrey's torture of Sansa? By our laws, that would make her an accomplice. Loving your children is one thing. Letting them inflict pain is taking it to an unhealthy level.

I'm sympathetic about her marriage to Robert (of whom I was no big fan at all) and understand about women having no power, but somehow that didn't turn Catelyn or Asha or any of the other strong female characters into raving harpies. As for the incest, it's a tabu for a reason (with Joffrey being an example, Tommen significantly less so, while Myrcella seems to have turned out all right).

I also want to question the notion of Tyrion wanting power as Cersei does. I've never gotten that impression from him. He wanted Casterly Rock, yes, but that was because it was his right.

[voodooqueen126]

The only defense that I can find for Cersei is that it's not her fault she was born short sighted and paranoid, nor that by growing in Tywin Lannister's shadow only exacerbated those traits.

Her boobs and other female parts, her ambition, her quest for power have nothing to do with the fact that people hate her, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, look at Arya, look at Danny, or even Asha. They have boobs, too, they are ruthless, too, and they are trying to become more powerful, too, each in her own way. Nobody hates them for those reasons.

I think the reason why some of us -- ok, me -- dislike Cersei is because we are sort of "tricked" into thinking she's competent and dangerous through the first three books. And then we get to see her POV in AFFC and acknowledge first hand what a train wreck she actually is. It was a huge disappointment for me, and not even the good writing in her POV chapters could save my opinion of her.

yeah but the reason Arya and Asha are loved is that they take on male personas and sacrifice their feminity.

Cersei like Sansa remains feminine and as we all know, women don't realise how much men secretly hate them.

I don't approve of Cersei's incest personally: her children were heirs to a great inheritance that Robert gained and if she wanted them to have that inheritance, then she can let Robert be the father.

However on some level I understand that Robert, being an abusive husband, disgusted her and she did not choose the marriage (although at least the marriage was organised by her father, to her benefit, rather than by her enemies, to her detriment) so there is something to be said for "my uterus, I choose who I put in their" unfortunately she chose her brother, which as the Targaryen dynasty demonstrates, results in some very substandard offspring.

[Cerys]

Why has no one tried to point out that Cersei's marriage is partially her own fault? Sure, Robert was a drunken wreck, but she went in to her marriage knowing she didn't want it and set herself there. She opposed her husband publicly, and undermined his decisions and embarassed him. Rather than trying to 'make things work' or god forbid saying, "I won't have you cheating on me" her mindset was "I'll never love him, lemme fuck my brother rather than trying to make the best of my situation." Cersei did nothing that was expected of her - and did her best to make things worse, and being Queen she thought she held power over everything, when her real role is to STFU and advise her husband in private and be supportive. And politically inept is a complete understatement. She behaves/thinks as only an insane person could, isolating herself and attempting to murder anyone who so much as comes near her. She is a murderous schemer who trusts no one. When you have the Tyrells blatantly extending olive branches, and you swat them away publicly, she can't expect positive recourse.

I disagree.

Cersei did marry a man she didn't love. As did Catelyn. Only difference is that Cersei wanted to be Robert wife until he say Lyanna's name. Proves: Robert was handsome, king, he show some interest in her (he tell her that crow cheers her), war hero, young, fun... Catelyn even show disappointment when she saw Ned.

Cersei did opposed her husband publicly, but embarrassment is big word. They needed to talk about decision which affects them both. It's not only Cersei's fault. Robert could just find a way to shout Cersei out, or how to smooth things out.

About cheating. Robert had a problem with ladies, that's not even a question. He cared only for Lyanna, did not show interest in children he believed was his, only affection he form was friendship for Ned and fatherly love for Jon Arryn. I doubt he will opposed Cersei to see whoever she wants.

Her role was to bear a heir. She did that. False heir, but anyway. She can have some form of power, but not all.

She is isolating herself because she is a sociopath. She kill people because she see enemy in them. Schizophrenia. She sees in Tryells someone who is trying to steel power from her. Schizophrenia. She is not demon. She is just ill and she get that from years as Robert queen (she thinks her father intended that kind of life to her).

[HaraktheHirsute]

From Cersei VI (Chapter 29):

Cersei did not intend to squander Tommen's strength playing wet nurse to a sparrows, or guarding the wrinkled cunts of a thousand sour septas.

Half of them are probably praying for a good raping

.

There you have it: Cersei, the not sociopath. How can anyone defend this CHB?

[Cotter_Pyke]

She almost trashes everyone so septas are no exception :)