Defend Cersei as best you can

[evanesco75]

Well,

Also, regarding Brann....it seems to me LitleFinger was far worst. Simply because Brann was not a threat to him and we have reasons to believe he was the one behind the second attempt on the childrens life....and just for the soul purpose of starting a political power strugle....now thats a lot more like Hitler mind you.....and makes Cersei look like an angel.

That was Joffrey. He sent the man with a dagger to kill Bran; Tyrion discovered the truth just before Joffrey's wedding. After Joffrey slashed the wedding gift Tyrion gave him (a book) with Widows Wail and asked Tyrion for another gift, Tyrion suggested a dagger with a dragonbone hilt just to confirm his suspicions. I believe that settled the matter. Of course, it may still be proven at a later point that LF was somehow involved, but I doubt it.

[Faint]

At first, when reading the topic of this thread, it seemed to me that I was destined to write a staggeringly long post defending Cersei given my own views on her. In particular, my belief that she is treated unfairly by most readers when compared to other characters. But with due consideration, I think it better to keep it very simple (and will try to do so).

That being the case, I will only say that, there are very specific factors explaining the way she acts. We know, for example, that she was raised without a mother and by a father who, it must be said, was almost inconceivably ill qualified in raising a daughter and who could not be any less loving had that actually been his purpose. Making matters worse, she was without any stabilizing influence during the entirety of her adolescence and had only her twin brother to lean on at the time, which might have worked out had the latter not been as immature and emotionally stunted as herself (which, again, I lay at their father's feet). This period then segued to Cersei being forced into marriage with a man who didn't love her and beat her to boot (both physically and emotionally). Again, no stabilizing influence to be found. I can also touch upon the fact that she is a woman, and what that means in Westeros, but those issues are clear to all who read the books and need not be reiterated here.

So taken together, is it really a surprise that she has turned psychotic? Because, really, when approaching the issue objectively, isn't it more fair to say that Cersei is mentally ill than consciously and determinedly evil? Can she really be compared to someone like Gregor Clegane who has no appreciation for human life or any life for that matter, or even someone like Littlefinger, whose disregard for humanity equals that of Gregor, if under a more Machiavellian and cynical guise? Isn't it instructive that even Eddard felt pity for her after causing him so much grief? I think that's a good way to end my rant, if only because I do wonder how things would have turned out had Cersei married Eddard and not Robert.

[Kalbear]

So taken together, is it really a surprise that she has turned psychotic?

I don't think that she's remotely psychotic. She's clearly able to show empathy, she clearly has feelings for others (not many others, but definitely others), she is able to bond with people, she is able to relate with them.

Labeling her a psychopath or sociopath really diminishes her character. She's neither. She is, simply, royalty. She is conniving and occasionally cruel, ruthless towards her enemies and willing to cross boundaries others are not as willing to do so - but that doesn't make her psychotic any more than it made Rosa Parks psychotic.

[Theano]

Cersei = Circe, for me. Both turn men into pigs (of a sort), after all. And who can forget that Circe has prides/packs of (tame) lions and wolves?

Both women represent the (mis)treatment of women, and take a woman's reaction to those situations a bit further than other women (of the era or environment) might. Both use their "feminine wiles" to get their way. Both lose a love to another woman (Rhaagar and Lyanna, Odysseus and Penelope). And I suppose that if you hated most men on general principle, your twin brother might be one of the few males you could ever really trust or love.

For added squick: Telegonus, Circe's son by Odysseus, went on to marry Penelope (after he accidentally killed Odysseus, Oedipus-style), and Circe married Telemachus, Odysseus' son by Penelope. That's keeping it all in the family...

[Myrish swan]

Well,

About Brann, i have no doubts Cersei wanted him dead. But that´s basically because she had no other chance. At the exact they realize Brann knows about them, it´s wither kill or get killed. Only other option would have been to kill Robert as soon as possible....and Brann was a lot easier and safer. If it was not for Litlefinger´s plot, Brann´s acident could not have been linked so easily to the Lannisters.

.....

Even regarding Brann, she is scared about him but once he survives, she apparently doesnt make any more attempts to kill him. So it seems enough was enough for her. This is from the scene were she wants to kill him because she fears he may still talk, but Jaime easilly talks her out from that plan.

Re this part of your post: I disagree. It is made clear in various places that Cersei did not want Bran dead; that if it were left up to her she would have merely talked him out of believing what he saw.

This is made clear in a few places. First, in Jaime's POV chapters in ASOSs, where he remembers that Cersei did not him to throw Bran out of the window. He thinks something like "Cersei had been angry at him for throwing the boy. She'd argued that the boy was only 7 years old and might not of even understood what he saw; he could have been talked out of telling someone." Next, in AFFC, Cersei thinks during one of her POV chapters that Jaime should not have thrown Bran. She notes that Bran could have been cajoled, threatened, or otherwise convinced into not talking by non- violent means.

On a completely different subject, in regards to Cersei killing Robert's bastards, I don't think she did that out of wounded pride. In fact, I don't think she did that out of anything but self-preservation and the protecting of her children. The reason why she had Barra killed after Robert's death was so people in kings landing would be less likely to note the disparity between her own children and Robert's trueborn bastards. That way, she could prevent rumors that might threaten joffrey's already tenuous claim to the iron throne. Plus, I think the fact that she always left the mothers alive showed that there was little resentment towards them or the bastards specifically; she just loathed Robert for humiliating her, and saw the bastards as a threat to her own kids.

[Songlian]

The only defense that I can find for Cersei is that it's not her fault she was born short sighted and paranoid, nor that by growing in Tywin Lannister's shadow only exacerbated those traits.

Her boobs and other female parts, her ambition, her quest for power have nothing to do with the fact that people hate her, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, look at Arya, look at Danny, or even Asha. They have boobs, too, they are ruthless, too, and they are trying to become more powerful, too, each in her own way. Nobody hates them for those reasons.

I think the reason why some of us -- ok, me -- dislike Cersei is because we are sort of "tricked" into thinking she's competent and dangerous through the first three books. And then we get to see her POV in AFFC and acknowledge first hand what a train wreck she actually is. It was a huge disappointment for me, and not even the good writing in her POV chapters could save my opinion of her.

[Kalbear]

Her boobs and other female parts, her ambition, her quest for power have nothing to do with the fact that people hate her, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, look at Arya, look at Danny, or even Asha. They have boobs, too, they are ruthless, too, and they are trying to become more powerful, too, each in her own way. Nobody hates them for those reasons.

Arya has boobs?

Many, many people hate Dany for lots of reasons - and a lot of them ultimately come down to her being a woman. Why would it be surprising that they hate Cersei more given that she's a woman and that she is also ruthless?

The biggest surprise to me isn't the hatred of Cersei, which is often misogynistic and vile; it's that those same people love Littlefinger despite him being far worse.

Cersei was competent in the first three novels - though part of that competence was simply dueling against Ned, who is completely clueless. In AFFC, she goes through the events of her firstborn son's death, her father's death, gaining a massive amount of power, losing the most powerful spy the kingdom has, dealing with massive debt while the economists she did have are gone or betrayed the realm, having to hire an entire new government and losing the love of her life. These are not easy things for anyone to deal with rationally, and she doesn't. Witness how Cat dealt with the notion of her sons dying or her father's death - which was a long time coming - and it's not hard to see where the irrationality lies.

[Faint]

I think the reason why some of us -- ok, me -- dislike Cersei is because we are sort of "tricked" into thinking she's competent and dangerous through the first three books. And then we get to see her POV in AFFC and acknowledge first hand what a train wreck she actually is. It was a huge disappointment for me, and not even the good writing in her POV chapters could save my opinion of her.

I've never quite understood this criticism of the character or the fact that readers believed her to be especially skilled in political maneuvering before AFfC. Did you skip the Tyrion chapters in the second and third books? Cersei possesses great power and influence because she is the wife to and mothers of kings, and she was always ruthless, but I never, never, got the impression that she is analytically brilliant or a great judge of events in Westeros.

[Myrish swan]

The only defense that I can find for Cersei is that it's not her fault she was born short sighted and paranoid, nor that by growing in Tywin Lannister's shadow only exacerbated those traits.

Her boobs and other female parts, her ambition, her quest for power have nothing to do with the fact that people hate her, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, look at Arya, look at Danny, or even Asha. They have boobs, too, they are ruthless, too, and they are trying to become more powerful, too, each in her own way. Nobody hates them for those reasons.

I think the reason why some of us -- ok, me -- dislike Cersei is because we are sort of "tricked" into thinking she's competent and dangerous through the first three books. And then we get to see her POV in AFFC and acknowledge first hand what a train wreck she actually is. It was a huge disappointment for me, and not even the good writing in her POV chapters could save my opinion of her.

I actually think Cersei's chapters in AFFC are a trainwreck in and of themselves. Cersei acts totally out of character throughout AFFCs; it's as if GRRM felt he needed to add her POV, but hated her character so much he could not help but make her stupid, incompetent, etc. just to show how much she sucks, despite the fact that she had been written as the opposite up until that point.

Seriously, despite Cersei's many negative qualities, she gives every impression of being intelligent, sane, and competent up unitl AFFC's, when she becomes crazy, stupid, and totally incompetent. And it was not just Ned Stark she outsmarted in the early books. In ACOK and ASOS, she is shown as being able to go up against Tyrion. If not always his equal in cunning, she shows considerable intelligence. He even admits this at times.

Basically, I think Cersei never should have been a POV character... or GRRM should have stayed more true to the way he characterized her in books 1-3.

[Songlian]

Arya has boobs?

No, she has mushrooms. Everything under the 90D cup is defined as a mushroom.

it's that those same people love Littlefinger despite him being far worse.

I'm "guilty" of this, if it can be called that. But I don't think there's ground of comparison between Cersei and Littlefinger, unless we're discussing strictly the struggle for the Game of Thrones. Which, as I've said before, is not why I dislike her in the first place.

Cersei was competent in the first three novels - though part of that competence was simply dueling against Ned, who is completely clueless. In AFFC, she goes through the events of her firstborn son's death, her father's death, gaining a massive amount of power, losing the most powerful spy the kingdom has, dealing with massive debt while the economists she did have are gone or betrayed the realm, having to hire an entire new government and losing the love of her life. These are not easy things for anyone to deal with rationally, and she doesn't. Witness how Cat dealt with the notion of her sons dying or her father's death - which was a long time coming - and it's not hard to see where the irrationality lies.

I agree that she was put in a favorable light for the three books. I don't agree with the fact that whatever happened to her drove her almost mad. But then again, I'm not a mother and I certainly haven't lost anything as important as a child, so perhaps you're right.

Did you skip the Tyrion chapters in the second and third books?

Is this your reasoning for why people just didn't get Cersei from the start? Because nobody skips Tyrion chapters.

As far as I see the issue, maybe it's just a matter of how we view the character. I never thought her to be brilliant, but there's a difference between surviving politically and completely out of touch with reality.

I actually think Cersei's chapters in AFFC are a trainwreck in and of themselves. Cersei acts totally out of character throughout AFFCs; it's as if GRRM felt he needed to add her POV, but hated her character so much he could not help but make her stupid, incompetent, etc. just to show how much she sucks, despite the fact that she had been written as the opposite up until that point.

Seriously, despite Cersei's many negative qualities, she gives every impression of being intelligent, sane, and competent up unitl AFFC's, when she becomes crazy, stupid, and totally incompetent. And it was not just Ned Stark she outsmarted in the early books. In ACOK and ASOS, she is shown as being able to go up against Tyrion. If not always his equal in cunning, she shows considerable intelligence. He even admits this at times.

Basically, I think Cersei never should have been a POV character... or GRRM should have stayed more true to the way he characterized her in books 1-3.

Agreed. For me it was a substantial change in tone when it came to her. It was just too much, all of a sudden.

[Faint]

Is this your reasoning for why people just didn't get Cersei from the start? Because nobody skips Tyrion chapters.

As far as I see the issue, maybe it's just a matter of how we view the character. I never thought her to be brilliant, but there's a difference between surviving politically and completely out of touch with reality.

I just got the sense that Tyrion was used as a narrative tool to show the readers how out of her depth Cersei was since he was always the foil to show how bad her inclinations were (i.e., ripping out the tongue of any daring to repeat that she had committed incest, calling her father to King's Landing, etc.). The point is, Cersei was always wrong, although, I do agree that she, almost inconceivably, got worse in AFfC.

[Alexia]

While Cersei was hotheaded and impulsive, I didn't always think she was wrong. For example, I thought she was right in throwing the KL prophets into a prison cell against Tyrion's wishes. Also, calling her father to KL wasn't totally unreasonable - Stannis showed up unexpectedly and they almost lost the city along with Joffrey with several major power players.

I think that Cersei of AFFC wouldn't have been entirely awful as a character - if her mistakes had been carried out throughout a five year gap AND if she hadn't rearmed the Faith and given them the right to judge royalty. There's just no way that can be seen in any sort of a positive light, exchanging arms for the Faith for a stupid blessing for Tommen. And I do have trouble believing the Cersei of the first three books would have done something like that, at least in the way it happened.

Giving Falyse to Qyburn, which effectively gives Stokeworth to Bronn, is another mistake that I just didn't understand and that didn't really ring true.

[Songlian]

although, I do agree that she, almost inconceivably, got worse in AFfC.

Yup, I think this is something everyone agrees with. And don't get me wrong, it's not just her intellect I'm complaining about, it's also her emotional depth. For instance, Jaime, one of her many many issues. In AGOT we have the encounter with Ned, and they talk about the incest. I don't recall the words exactly right now, but she talks of twin souls and how he's a part of her. (Granted, it could have all been but false chat to persuade Ned.) And then in AFFC we learn just how much Jaime is worth to her and what's her real attitude towards him. It's a strong contrast, to say the least.

[Kalbear]

Part of the reason that she gets worse in AFFC is because...well, of a fan. See, this fan thought Cersei wasn't just misunderstood or a good villain - she thought Cersei was the most sympathetic and awesome person in the book. And she had great arguments about it. GRRM heard these, was all 'how can you like Cersei', and then esseentially made sure that after AFFC no one would consider her sympathetic.

So yeah, Julie, you did this. It's on you.

I'm "guilty" of this, if it can be called that. But I don't think there's ground of comparison between Cersei and Littlefinger, unless we're discussing strictly the struggle for the Game of Thrones. Which, as I've said before, is not why I dislike her in the first place.

As I compared before, it's very easily comparable.

Both torture random innocents to get them to say what they want.

Both kill people they say they love.

Both use sex to gain power over people.

Both are completely callous about other people's lives.

Both are very power-hungry and believe they are slighted for something outside of their control.

Both have, through poison/drugging committed regicide.

Now, I will grant you - Cersei never poisoned an 8-year old deliberately to gain power over someone. Nor did she poison a 13-year old kid to gain favor. She did order the death of a dog that (she thought) attacked her child, which some people equate the same (or worse) as poisoning an 8 year old. I do not. In that respect I think Littlefinger isn't comparable at all to Cersei - he's far worse.

[Faint]

Yup, I think this is something everyone agrees with. And don't get me wrong, it's not just her intellect I'm complaining about, it's also her emotional depth. For instance, Jaime, one of her many many issues. In AGOT we have the encounter with Ned, and they talk about the incest. I don't recall the words exactly right now, but she talks of twin souls and how he's a part of her. (Granted, it could have all been but false chat to persuade Ned.) And then in AFFC we learn just how much Jaime is worth to her and what's her real attitude towards him. It's a strong contrast, to say the least.

I have to say that this change of hear on her part, while not exactly justified, is understandable in light of the changes Jamie himself had undergone. The fact of matter is, the Jamie that showed up in King's Landing after imprisonment is not the Jamie who left in AGoT. But even taking that into account, I also feel there is a disconnect between how readers perceived Cersei from the viewpoints of other characters and how she actually is as we know from AFfC. And this, in itself, is not unexpected because we were not privy to her POV before, so how could we know how she thought or what she was really like? I do feel there are hints, like when she breaks out in tears in front of Tyrion or her behavior to him in general but the full picture, as it were, was not available yet. But in my mind, the character is not inconsistent; I can reconcile that Cersei was the way she is in AFfC back during AGoT even if she did not show it, making allowances for the fact that she is becoming increasingly paranoid and deranged -- which can itself be accounted for as a result of the partial fulfillment of the prophecy she received.

[The faceless others]

In the previous books, what we know about Cersei's personality came from people who at least respect or are weary of her, Tyrion and Ned for example. This helped paint our assumption that she is at least a competent player in the power struggle. As a result, when AFFC came, the first hand experience in her own head was too much, making some ore most of us hate her. Although, I think that she's not a psycho, but just human. She got ambitions, desires, and a very strong drive to get them causing to make her look ruthless. And I agree about her upbringing without a mother figure to help twist her personality.

[Myrish swan]

I just got the sense that Tyrion was used as a narrative tool to show the readers how out of her depth Cersei was since he was always the foil to show how bad her inclinations were (i.e., ripping out the tongue of any daring to repeat that she had committed incest, calling her father to King's Landing, etc.). The point is, Cersei was always wrong, although, I do agree that she, almost inconceivably, got worse in AFfC.

Yeah, but these are stupid decisions, however, they are not anywhere near the numerous idiotic decision she made throughout AFFC. Furthermore, in ACOK aand ASOS, Cersei is able to listen to the council of those wiser than her, and to see reason. When she is about to do something stupid and it is pointed out to her, she reconsiders and often changes her plans. For instance, her decision to deal with the incest rumors differently by taking up Tyrion's idea of spreading a rumor rather than responding with violence. In short, she is able (and willing) to listen to reason.

Furthermore, the dumb decisions that you listed are generally not well thought out plans; quite a few of them are things that she decided to do out of anger. This is in sharp contrast to her behavior in ACOKs, where she slowly draws up plans of the greatest stupidity, carefully executes them, and will not listen to the wise council of those around her.

This is far more than Cersei just gaining power. It is Cersei apparently getting a brain transplant.

[chuck norris 42]

If I had Cersei's upbringing and perspective I would acct in exactly the same way as Cersei. As a child I was trained to be considerate and as an adult I adore people that are considerate but without those influences I would be a rabid dog.

[Myrish swan]

In the previous books, what we know about Cersei's personality came from people who at least respect or are weary of her, Tyrion and Ned for example. This helped paint our assumption that she is at least a competent player in the power struggle. As a result, when AFFC came, the first hand experience in her own head was too much, making some ore most of us hate her. Although, I think that she's not a psycho, but just human. She got ambitions, desires, and a very strong drive to get them causing to make her look ruthless. And I agree about her upbringing without a mother figure to help twist her personality.

I disagree. Some people have said that Cersei is "presented more sympathetically" in the first three books. Personally, I think she is presented with little, if any sympathy throughout the series. To the contrary, in AGOT, I felt as though we were being manipulated to dislike her from the beginning.

Take the direwolf scene, for instance. Here we are presented with an evil, cold Cersei, who apparently gets her kicks by slaughtering i innocent children and direwolves (and, hilariously, most people I've talked to about this scene have expressed more sympathy for the direwolf than for Mikah, but that's a different story.) Proof of this is the fact that, reading the numerous reasons that users of these message boards have posted for hating Cersei, one often sees the direwolf killing listed as number one. But, really, how "evil" has Cersei been in this scene? The Mikah murder is definitely evil, but she may well think Mikah tried to attack her son, and the punishment for that is death. Furthermore, the direwolf did attack her son.

Re observations of Cersei coming from those who respect her-- I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Tyrion does not respect Cersei; he resents, dislikes, and distrusts her. Their interactions make it clear that he not only has no respect for her; he will not even pretend to.

As for Ned Stark, I'd kind of argue the same thing. The weird thing is that Ned himself seems to act inconsistently with Cersei. He seems to dislike and disrespect Cersei from the beginning, even before he knows her. Remember him calling her "the Lanister woman" to Catelyn, rather than Queen Cersei? And even Catelyn reprimands him on that. And he watches as Robert beats her, apparently not feeling even uncomfortable that this woman is being abused.

At any rate, I think the "good" men of the series always seem to distrust and dislike Cersei.

[The faceless others]

Myrish swan, I should say then, that what I posted was my opinion about why people seem to see a very different personality in Cersei in the first three books and AFFC, but yeah it should be from the perspective of those guys who don't give a damn about her like Tyrion, and Ned, slowly painting a suddle picture of a cold and ruthless woman. I couldn't remember, but what is Cat's perspective about her?