Defend Cersei as best you can

[Alexia]

I feel like she simply lacked experience.

I think this post nicely sums it up.

[Faint]

Plus, her family had deserted her, and she was quite alone in AFFC. I just feel this is key when judging her performance/decisions.

I don't hate her either, and like some other posters I take issue with the apparent sexism. Let's face it: ASOIAF is populated by scheming, immoral dickheads (men), barring lone figures like Ned. Euron, for example, is way more despicable. As is Tywin, if you ask me. So why should Cersei alone get the flak?

I tend to systematically defend her, but as to her being alone, it should be noted that, not only was she happy about this development, she in large part contributed to it coming about. She forced Kevan's hand, chased off Tyrion, and essentially exiled Jamie.

As to your other point, you couldn't be more right; for whatever reason Cersei seems to be considered the primary antagonist of the story even though, objectively, there is so much more to mitigate her deeds than those of many others, including her father.

[evanesco75]

Agree about Kevan and Tyrion, but not Jaime. She wanted him as Hand, and he refused. I really believe she wanted him around until she realized he'd 'changed' in some ways and so wouldn't support her exactly how she wanted him to.

Reading your point does make me suspect she probably felt thrilled about being on her own at first. She'd never been able to simply call all the shots before, since she always had to answer to a man (Robert/Tywin). In AFfC, she finally got to handle matters herself. And she was arrogant enough to gloat to herself too, about how neatly she was taking care of things. She was arrogant (like her father and twin) but unlike Tywin, she underestimated others, which was again down to a lack of experience.

[Myrish swan]

She did have sex with Jaime after he did that (after scolding him) as the replayed that scene in flashback in A Feast of Crows.

On YOUR SONS GRAVE WHILEST MOURNING HIM! Seriously.

I am concemning her for not really loving him. Even in death, she ****s on his grave.

I disagree that Cersei and Jaime's (admitedely highly disturbing) sex on Joff's grave is proof that she did not love him. There are several issues here: first, consider not just the act itself, but the motives behind it. Obviously, Jaime and Cersei are acting highly inappropriately; the easy assumption to reach after seeing their actions in the sept would be that they are both total sociopaths and don't give a crap about their kid.

Cersei at this point was not only mourning her son, but was also afraid, angry, and distraught. I think its understandable that she would seek comfort in her twin. Furthermore, she clearly did enjoy the sex, but I don't think that "proves" that she had no love for her son-- any more than the fact that people who sometimes deal with the loss of loved ones by seeking distraction in sex, drink, food, or drugs did not love the person they lost. Basically, Cersei's behavior in this scene was weird and disturbing, however, I disagree that it is any sort of ironclad proof that she did not love her son.

If Robert thinks someones bad (as his standard of evil is set way below himself it is really really bad. Nuff said. If she really loved her son, she would have disciplined him, and found a way to make him better in the head. Instead (I think) she USED him to gain power, perhaps unconsciously.

But Robert is hardly a reliable judge of character, is he? Remember, he hates Rhaegar; yet by all other accounts Rhaegar was a great man. What is more, I'd say that on the subject of Cersei, Robert should not be trusted. He loathes her; yet he also mistreats her. He may put her "under his standard of evil," and claim himself the better person of the two, but Cersei would arguably do the same thing herself, saying Robert was the evil one. Basically, these two should not be trusted in evaluating each others characters.

Re: Cersei using Joff to gain power-- I completely agree, she did use him to gain power. And I don't think she did it unconsciously... the woman wants power. But that does not make her love for Joff any less real.

In regards to not disciplining Joffrey-- I agree, Cersei was too lenient with him; in fact, at times she actually encouraged his cruelty, mistaking it with strength. However, I do not think Cersei ever "made" her son cruel; he seems to have truly been born with a case of textbook anti-social personality disorder. She indulged him too much, spoiled him; she was a mildly bad mother, but not a horrible one. As for the cat thing-- yes, Joff does need to be punished here. However, Robert's behavior is actually worse than Cersei's-- he doesn't just discipline Joffrey, he hits him so hard that both Stannis and Cersei believe Joff to be dead. That's not discipline, that's endangering a child's life.

Note that...again...NO ONE LISTENS TO TYRION! Everyone hates him. No one follows him. His title was just that. He was harmless.

If she is half as smart as you think she is she should have EMBRACED him. Not try to kill him.

Up until recently? No. No one except the readers like Tyrion (because he is awesome). he had no real power. Therefore no threat.

Tyrion did have a great deal of real power. As another poster pointed out, in ACOKs, when Tyrion is serving as hand, his power is huge. As for your claim that Cersei should have embraced Tyrion, I believe that the antagonism (and plotting, and backstabbing) went both ways in ACOK and ASOS. Honestly, I believe they both act stupidly; engaging in their little power struggles when they should be banding together to defeat a common enemy. But with Tommen, Alaya, etc. they both act stupidly and savagely (I believe that Tyrion would have carried out his threats.)

As for trying to kill him.. this is after she believes (with good reason) that he killed her son.

[Faint]

Agree about Kevan and Tyrion, but not Jaime. She wanted him as Hand, and he refused. I really believe she wanted him around until she realized he'd 'changed' in some ways and so wouldn't support her exactly how she wanted him to.

Reading your point does make me suspect she probably felt thrilled about being on her own at first. She'd never been able to simply call all the shots before, since she always had to answer to a man (Robert/Tywin). In AFfC, she finally got to handle matters herself. And she was arrogant enough to gloat to herself too, about how neatly she was taking care of things. She was arrogant (like her father and twin) but unlike Tywin, she underestimated others, which was again down to a lack of experience.

It's true that she wanted Jaime around but only as her puppet, which ultimately is the same thing as sending him away -- in either case, she was going to be the one to make the decisions. And my only point in all this is that, even in defending Cersei, which I do quite a bit of, you can't really make the argument that she was abandoned in AFfC because that's essentially what she wanted.

[Lady Blackfish]

Oh are we supposed to avoid spoilers in this forum? I just kind of assumed everybody had read all the books if they are posting here.

Spoilers don't need to be hidden for events from the first four books at this time.

[Lady Blackfish]

1. We are manipulated wildly from the first book (beginning with the direwolf scene) to hate her.

While she does want power, how is that evil in itself? [...] I guess woman + power= evil, since there is not a single female character in these books who desires power who is presented with anything but contempt and disgust.

I don't think wanting power is evil in itself, it's also what she wants to do with it (not apparent in AGOT) and what she's willing to do to get it (apparent in AGOT). Tyrion has some issues that I think fans ignore (and arguably are enabled to ignore) at first read, but he also says he wants to bring justice to King's Landing, which makes his quest for power sympathetic. Varys' motives are a mystery, so people are too preoccupied wondering to entertain the idea that he's craving power for nefarious ends.

Littlefinger and Tywin are competent, in contrast to Cersei, at least after AGOT. I don't deny that Martin set Cersei up to be the "main" villain in a way neither Tywin nor Littlefinger were, though, and Cersei's evil definitely carries a gendered whiff given that she's such a Femme Fatale. On the other hand, I do disagree that there isn't a female character who desires power and is presented with something other than contempt and disgust. Dany is a direct parallel to Cersei, and while she isn't perfectly saintly or free of mistakes she's clearly more competent and principled than Cersei.

The problem with this, for some readers at least, is that Dany has dragons and magic and "good luck" that enables her to circumvent all the roadblocks in Cersei's way (men who inherit first, restricted power). That's where I think it starts to feel like Cersei got a raw deal from Martin.

4. She's had that scary curse hanging over her head for her entire life.

I'm not sure this is meant to make her sympathetic, it ultimately is part of the parcel of information we get that sketches her as irritatingly, laughably paranoid.

8. Was the incest with her brother really "evil?" I'd argue that it was sick, sad, and gross, but I'm not sure I'd define it as evil. And since her husband cheated on her with everyone, I can't blame her one bit for cuckholding him.

Her marriage is where she comes off the most sympathetic, IMO, in a He Done Her Wrong way. I don't actually hold the incest itself against Cersei, it was consensual and Robert wasn't true to her either. But it does also affect interests of state, and I think it actually would've been better for both her and the realm if she'd had just one child by Robert. On the other hand I can understand her pride about the matter. On the other other hand, sometimes other things have to trump concerns of pride.

I don't think Cersei murdered Robert in response to his beatings though, it was because she feared death (and death for her children) if he learned of their true parentage.

12. Seducing Kettlebacks, Lancel, possibly moonboy-- not evil, unless you are Jaime, and you are jealous. The things she is trying to get them to do in return for the seduction may be evil, but the seductions themselves are just an example of a woman getting what she wants by whatever means necessary.

I keep mulling over this and related points. It's true that women's options are limited and it makes me more understanding about them using things for which they are valued and objectified and turning that into weaponry, so to speak. On the other hand, she's also just about the richest lady in the whole land, I wonder if she couldn't have used that option, or intelligence ala the series' other manipulators. That said I don't think it makes her evil. Petyr Baelish has no issues with sleeping with an ugly woman to get what he needs, so if Cersei's a slut then he is too, and I don't see how it makes either evil or is really worth mentioning outside the fact that she cannot be openly sexual in her society and that it is part of a sketch in which she, IMO, comes across as a bit short of truly sex positive.

Political incompetence.

Lots of characters are politically incompetent (Ned!), but few attract the hatred that Cersei does.

I actually don't think Ned is as politically incompetent as Cersei. Ned is bad at gaining and defending power but I'd wager he wields it competently enough. With Cersei it's the opposite, more or less.

But my point is, like Cersei, Cat was not pulling the wisest possible moves after her son became under threat. So why are we so harsh on Cersei?

In fairness, readers dislike both women for this Mama Bear element. Martin doesn't seem to have successfully made motherhood a sympathetic motivation for a good many readers, and while some of that can be chalked up to empathy issues, I'm not sure all of it can be. (BTW I think Cersei clearly did not want Bran dead, her reaction to Jaime's attempt suggests as much.)

On a completely different subject, in regards to Cersei killing Robert's bastards, I don't think she did that out of wounded pride. In fact, I don't think she did that out of anything but self-preservation and the protecting of her children.

I think protection was a big concern, but I also think it satisfied her pride at the same time. When she thinks on how Catelyn Tully was a mouse for not smothering Jon Snow in his crib, the disdain and the means she envisions are excessive, I find it hard to imagine she felt guilty or hesitant while she pondered similar things.

But she is indistinguishable from so many other characters in that respect, with the possible exception of the fact that, as a beautiful woman, she can use sexual favors to advance her desires whereas Littlefinger and her father -- to use two examples -- can/could not. Thus, I don't find your explanation entirely convincing so as to explain why she is singled out.

I think one other thing is that Martin makes Cersei's villain status so much more prominent. She is the first antagonist who emerges and first impressions count for a lot, plus it means she's gone the longest without "proper karma". She is the antagonist at a time when the series is at its most morally simplistic, the heroes much more conventionally defined and the conflict much more narrow, which makes it easier to package up and remember. The tricky part here is that Cersei's archetype is so thoroughly gendered that it makes reactions to her hard to parse into gendered and non-gendered reactions. There's also the fact that she directly opposes popular male characters, Ned (and Robert, who is somewhat popular) and Tyrion and later Jaime, via their messy breakup.

But at the end of the day she truly gives people cause to hate her because her setbacks have made her a monster. The one narrative thread that truly continues to bother me is that Jaime one. She has only cheated on him, and while that sucks and all, fans gleefully envisioning him choking her to death or something strikes me as ugly, ala the justification of Tyrion killing Shae. I can see it happening for the very fact that it happened before with Tyrion and Shae, though I for one don't anticipate her downfall, if she does die, to be sexually humiliating. It's true that we were probably supposed to roll our eyes at Cersei when she propositioned Ned and got shot down, but I can't imagine Martin going to an utter extreme with sexual violence used for karmic effect. I hope I'm not wrong, of course.

[Manakhkubar]

In fairness, readers dislike both women for this Mama Bear element. Martin doesn't seem to have successfully made motherhood a sympathetic motivation for a good many readers, and while some of that can be chalked up to empathy issues, I'm not sure all of it can be. (BTW I think Cersei clearly did not want Bran dead, her reaction to Jaime's attempt suggests as much.)

Well, Martin doesn't really try to made motherhood sympathic. Actually, all times I remember a "motherhood" theme, it is used in a way to undermine the reader's sympathy for the mother. Cersei, Catelyn, Lysa, when Martin wants to stir some hate, he makes them do some "mothering". Small wonder the most favourable female characters are barren, notoriously childless or simply children.

[Lady Blackfish]

Well, Martin doesn't really try to made motherhood sympathic. Actually, all times I remember a "motherhood" theme, it is used in a way to undermine the reader's sympathy for the mother. Cersei, Catelyn, Lysa, when Martin wants to stir some hate, he makes them do some "mothering". Small wonder the most favourable female characters are barren, notoriously childless or simply children.

ASOIAF presents a negative view of motherhood? Interesting interpretation, I can see where you're coming from. I do think Cat's handling of Robb was meant to be more sympathetic than it ended up being for many readers, though, and Olenna is a positively regarded matriarch. Of course, Olenna is a mostly comic-relief bit character, and the truth is many do end up seeing Cat as Robb's nagging ball and chain. Point stands that there could've been a bigger effort made if he had wanted to do it. Wonder what we might say his intentions were.

[Senta Signora]

One character whose maternal actions are presented positively is, oddly, Sansa. Her understanding of how to treat Sweetrobin is used to demonstrate her growing maturity and growing mastery over her environment.

[Loras]

As she is my favourite character in the series, my defence of Cersei may be slightly biased - so please rip it apart.

Cersei is a tragic character, throughout her life she has always wanted to achieve something greater than that which she was born into. Contrast this with Sansa Stark, who in GOT (where she is maligned as a traitor to her house) wants her life to be a song, marry a gallant prince, live in a castle and have his children. She wanted to live happily ever after. Cersei wanted something slightly more than that, she longed to rule - she wanted the power that went with being a queen. She wanted to make her way in a man's world.

This notion - as many have pointed out before me - stems from the fact that Cersei did not have a female role model in her youth. Her mother, Joanna, died when she was still very young. Cersei began to understand that the only way to impress her father and garner his praise was through strength at arms. So she convinced Jaime to trade places with her. I see this as the start of Cersei's desire to be something more than the typical woman. Tywin's emphasis on martial prowess has also become the reason that Cersei has such a deep loathing of Tyrion. Such was Cersei's desire to impress her father that she 'copied' him, treating Tyrion with disdain and even cruelly - as seen by Oberyn Martell.

Jaime was the only person who treated her well, even doting on her. It became natural that Cersei enjoyed this attention from her brother, that love that she didn't get from her father nor wouldn't allow from Tyrion. How this developed into the sexual relationship that is occurring at the start of the series, we don't know. We do know that Jaime would do anything for Cersei - her first taste of power. The power that sex brings her, a power that she continues to use from that point until the current.

So, as an aside, let me respond to those saying that Cersei allowed herself to be 'alone' during AFFC:

The change in Jaime has caused him to reevaluate his relationship with Cersei - mainly due to Brienne of Tarth and helping him to find his honour. No longer does he dote on Cersei, no longer is the power of sex enough to sway him into action; such as declaring to Aerys that he wants to be on the Kingsguard, or throwing a seven year old boy from a window. Cersei no longer has the power in the relationship, she sees him as expecting her to fulfil a more womanly role and forfeit power. So she gets rid of him.

Back in AGOT, Robert tells Ned that he is surrounded by flatterers and fools on the Small Council. Cersei surrounds herself with flatterers because they allow her to carve out her role, as a woman, in a man's realm. This is why Qyburn rises so quickly, he owes everything to Cersei. If it was not for her he would still be one of the Bloody Mummers. Cersei does not see him as a threat, seeing him as grandfatherly.

AFFC is such an excellent book for the characterisation of Cersei, she is a feminist and part of her sees women as her major threat, whilst she expecting them to want to carve out their own position in power as she does. It is a fascinating duality, Cersei's respect for these women - Olenna, Margaery and Taena - despite her fear of them. Meanwhile she finds women who want to conform to the typical womanly ideals as insipid - Sansa and Falyse.

So Cersei is a feminist - created by her father, wanting power for herself, to be something more than society expects of her. She fights everyone who tries to take the power that she has achieved from her. Ambitious or ruthless? Or both?

Furthermore though, Cersei cracks under pressure. We see it many times throughout the series; during the Battle for the Blackwater, after the riot in King's Landing, the burning of the tower of the hand (albeit more considered), visiting Jaime in the Great Sept. She can't handle the power that she has, she has no outlet.

So Cersei is an ambitious woman, determined to make her Mark, but not that she has the power she focusses on her enemies - the only ones she deems capable, Margaery and Olenna. Cersei has a hatred of men, they disappoint her, even Jaime.

[Faint]

I think one other thing is that Martin makes Cersei's villain status so much more prominent. She is the first antagonist who emerges and first impressions count for a lot, plus it means she's gone the longest without "proper karma". She is the antagonist at a time when the series is at its most morally simplistic, the heroes much more conventionally defined and the conflict much more narrow, which makes it easier to package up and remember. The tricky part here is that Cersei's archetype is so thoroughly gendered that it makes reactions to her hard to parse into gendered and non-gendered reactions. There's also the fact that she directly opposes popular male characters, Ned (and Robert, who is somewhat popular) and Tyrion and later Jaime, via their messy breakup.

I think you're so on point here. It does seem that Cersei has gathered a select place among villains in the series largely as a consequence of when she emerged as a character and the people she did bad things to. There is also the fact, as you point out, that in the minds of most readers, she has yet to receive just karma. This is actually quite disputable because one of her children, undoubtedly, her favorite, was murdered right in front of her eyes. The problem is, Joffrey is even more unlikable than her for most readers, so this was never going to lead to sympathy for her, at least for the vast majority of people. But I do think there is some other interesting aspect to all this, lying underneath the surface of the obvious, explaining why Cersei gathers no support what so ever while other characters like Jaime are at the center of large rehabilitation efforts on their behalf. Part of this has to do with the intentions of the writer, because clearly George wants us to take a fresh perspective on some people, most prominently, Jaime. But even so, in some ways, I find Jaime much worse than Cersei and don't buy this change he has supposedly undergone. To me, the whole thing reeks of superficiality; he has not really rectified the incest and what it caused; he has not fulfilled his oath to Catelyn Stark; he has not really served justice on those responsible for the Red Wedding; he hasn't even prevented Cersei from botching the ruling of Westeros either; all he has really done, to this point, is feel bad about it, supposedly, and even that, only when it's convenient and he is sure nothing can be done either way. And he is one character, don't even get me started on Robert. Even Ned, as you'll see in my response below, can be viewed differently, as good intentioned as he is.

But at the end of the day she truly gives people cause to hate her because her setbacks have made her a monster. The one narrative thread that truly continues to bother me is that Jaime one. She has only cheated on him, and while that sucks and all, fans gleefully envisioning him choking her to death or something strikes me as ugly, ala the justification of Tyrion killing Shae. I can see it happening for the very fact that it happened before with Tyrion and Shae, though I for one don't anticipate her downfall, if she does die, to be sexually humiliating. It's true that we were probably supposed to roll our eyes at Cersei when she propositioned Ned and got shot down, but I can't imagine Martin going to an utter extreme with sexual violence used for karmic effect. I hope I'm not wrong, of course.

You know, that scene between Cersei and Ned, which might be my favorite of all, I think affects me much more differently than it does other people. I can literally place that point in the story as when I began to emphasize with Cersei at the expense of other characters, probably unfairly at times, at that. And I can even understand why people would roll their eyes at Cersei's offer but I had much different emotions about it, because to me, it confirmed the limitations that she faces because of her sex in Westeros, even being the most powerful woman in the world at the time. Likewise, this was also the point in the story when I started to view Ned differently, and started thinking that his misplaced faith in honor and truth and all those goods things actually had a perverse effect on destabilizing the continent because it essentially led to the war that would follow. It would, of course, go against everything he believed in but you do have to wonder whether Ned supporting Cersei to the tilt at that point would not have been better for the world going into the future. At the very least, it would stopped all fighting between House Tully, House Stark, and House Lannister, prevented the sacking of the North by the Ironborn, and consolidated the defense against the Others. The problem was that Joffrey was so terrible he would have been a horrible choice as a long term king, but even that might be rectified provided that Tywin and Ned could sort him out and use a strong hand.

[Lady Blackfish]

Cersei is a tragic character, throughout her life she has always wanted to achieve something greater than that which she was born into. Contrast this with Sansa Stark, who in GOT (where she is maligned as a traitor to her house) wants her life to be a song, marry a gallant prince, live in a castle and have his children. She wanted to live happily ever after. Cersei wanted something slightly more than that, she longed to rule - she wanted the power that went with being a queen. She wanted to make her way in a man's world.

Juxtaposing the two characters is pretty interesting, it always seemed to me like Cersei could see at least some of her younger self in Sansa and that's part of why Sansa irritated her so much. By hating Sansa she was killing or denying any weakness in herself. Anyway, certainly by the time Cersei is an adult, she wants power, but I don't think she longed to rule from a young age. She started noticing the different ways she and Jaime were treated, and I think that difference in its very self caused her resentment. She developed an awareness of a lack of respect shown her on account of being a girl, and that was channeled into political ambition as she grew. Of course, she never seems to have any concrete goals regarding what to do with her power, she just wants it.

Cersei began to understand that the only way to impress her father and garner his praise was through strength at arms.

I'm not sure about this. I think Tywin is impressed by impressiveness and stature. He didn't want his favorite child Jaime to be part of the Kingsguard, remember, he wanted him to inherit Casterly Rock. I think Cersei learned her pride and need to be absolute #1 king of the hill from Tywin, and the fact that she must be able to instill fear in order to be worthy of respect.

It is a fascinating duality, Cersei's respect for these women - Olenna, Margaery and Taena - despite her fear of them.

I might be misremembering, but I can't recall where it was suggested that Cersei respects these other women at all? She seems to belittle them just as freely as she belittles women she considers weak.

There is also the fact, as you point out, that in the minds of most readers, she has yet to receive just karma. This is actually quite disputable because one of her children, undoubtedly, her favorite, was murdered right in front of her eyes. The problem is, Joffrey is even more unlikable than her for most readers, so this was never going to lead to sympathy for her, at least for the vast majority of people.

Yes, although in my experience that's one of the times some people can express at least some sympathy for her (the other is when she remembers how Robert treated her). But the other thing is that it doesn't count as reparations for her crimes, losing Joff comes too little too late to mean anything to Ned, Jon, Tyrion, etc, and it's not like any benefit they would have gained from his death would've been by her intention. I feel like a lot of these hated female characters are required by significant segments of the audience to atone for what they did directly to popular male characters, while there's less of that in the opposite direction. And I think that's partly due to structural things.

Part of this has to do with the intentions of the writer, because clearly George wants us to take a fresh perspective on some people, most prominently, Jaime.

Certainly, GRRM can get readers to feel a certain way about a character, even if it involves ignoring morality. Quite frankly, GRRM does not want us to feel very sympathetic towards Cersei, nor -- and this might be more relevant w.r.t. comparing her to other villains -- find her very cool.

I actually thought Cersei was pretty damn badass in her scene with Ned, and quite honestly I thought Ned thought she was too ;) If you want to know my honest opinion, Martin invests us more completely in the perspectives of his male characters and his tomboyish/warrior women characters than Cersei, Sansa and Catelyn, so whatever sympathies are there, they don't matter as much to the overall narrative, or the perspectives of those with "opposing" views (Tyrion and Jaime, Arya, Jon) matter more.

[Horza]

Of course, she never seems to have any concrete goals regarding what to do with her power, she just wants it.

In some abstract sense she thinks it's all necessary to secure her children's future, but this appears to be a placeholder for her own ambitions as she shows no sign of actually caring for them.

[Faint]

Certainly, GRRM can get readers to feel a certain way about a character, even if it involves ignoring morality. Quite frankly, GRRM does not want us to feel very sympathetic towards Cersei, nor -- and this might be more relevant w.r.t. comparing her to other villains -- find her very cool.

I actually thought Cersei was pretty damn badass in her scene with Ned, and quite honestly I thought Ned thought she was too ;) If you want to know my honest opinion, Martin invests us more completely in the perspectives of his male characters and his tomboyish/warrior women characters than Cersei, Sansa and Catelyn, so whatever sympathies are there, they don't matter as much to the overall narrative, or the perspectives of those with "opposing" views (Tyrion and Jaime, Arya, Jon) matter more.

But see, that's the thing with respect to my own views -- I do feel sympathy for Cersei, much more so than towards Jaime, who I have no sympathy for what so ever, and I absolutely love Cersei as a character. While I grant the writer did not intend for me to have those views, for even I can discern that I'm probably supposed to look at Jaime in a new light, this whole narrative structure never clicked for me. I like Jaime as a character as well, although not half so much as Cersei, and find him wildly entertaining at that, but I actually think him to be far more responsible for the mess Westeros is in than Cersei and I find his 'redemption' to be no more substantial than mist. From what I can tell, he now feels a tinge of shame for all the evil acts he committed and gave away a sword, yet, somehow I'm supposed to believe he has transformed because he is jealous that his sister was sleeping around behind his back and now realizes how much of an idiot he has always been. I don't know; George is going to have to do better than that.

[Myrish swan]

On thing I've been wondering about-- we've established here that Cersei often uses sex to get ahead. Why did she never use that tactic with Robert? I was just thinking of "you can get more bees with honey than you can with vinnegar." Well, Cersei probably could have had a far easier time manipulating Robert by using sex than by insulting and/ or arguing with him. So why didn't she? Any thoughts?

Yes, although in my experience that's one of the times some people can express at least some sympathy for her (the other is when she remembers how Robert treated her). But the other thing is that it doesn't count as reparations for her crimes, losing Joff comes too little too late to mean anything to Ned, Jon, Tyrion, etc, and it's not like any benefit they would have gained from his death would've been by her intention.

The thing is, I don't think Cersei ever really wronged Tyrion. Though she hated him, he's a creep to her. And she only wants to have him killed after she believes he killed her beloved son.

Did anyone else ever get the feeling that Cersei was mildly afraid of Joffrey? When she is describing how she did not plan to have Ned killed to Tyrion, and she notes that Joffrey suddenly insisted, she sounds almost intimidated by her son.

Certainly, GRRM can get readers to feel a certain way about a character, even if it involves ignoring morality. Quite frankly, GRRM does not want us to feel very sympathetic towards Cersei, nor -- and this might be more relevant w.r.t. comparing her to other villains -- find her very cool.

I actually thought Cersei was pretty damn badass in her scene with Ned, and quite honestly I thought Ned thought she was too ;) If you want to know my honest opinion, Martin invests us more completely in the perspectives of his male characters and his tomboyish/warrior women characters than Cersei, Sansa and Catelyn, so whatever sympathies are there, they don't matter as much to the overall narrative, or the perspectives of those with "opposing" views (Tyrion and Jaime, Arya, Jon) matter more.

I agree with you regarding the preference for male characters and Tomboy female characters. He seems to relate to these characers far more than the women. (Or at least that's my opinion.) For characters like Catelyn, he has pity,even sympathy, but not empathy. Or at least he never identifies with her as much as he does with Tyrion.

Regarding Cersei, I think that he seems to want readers to view her as Littlefinger descibes her-- simultaneously evil and pathetic. It is frequently emphasized in AFFC that she is not due any of the respect given to someone like Tywin. In order to do this GRRM has to show us throughout AFFC that (in case we hadn't noticed yet) in addition to all of her other evil qualities, Cersei is really, really stupid and incompetent as well. I think he does this so much that he ends up making her act rather out of character for most of the book. (However, I may be totally wrong here. People have put forth good arguments that Cersei's incompetence was there all along, and it just did not come out until AFFC.)

[chuck norris 42]

On thing I've been wondering about-- we've established here that Cersei often uses sex to get ahead. Why did she never use that tactic with Robert? I was just thinking of "you can get more bees with honey than you can with vinnegar." Well, Cersei probably could have had a far easier time manipulating Robert by using sex than by insulting and/ or arguing with him. So why didn't she? Any thoughts?

I sort of got the idea that pleasing Robert meant a high chance of pregnancy or explaining why she did not want his children which just was not worth it. She would also rather get she wanted by dominating someone else and making them kill Robert , as opposed to submitting to Robert to get favours.

[Lady Blackfish]

While I grant the writer did not intend for me to have those views [...] this whole narrative structure never clicked for me.

Yeah, that happens. One can often tell what a writer or creator intended to do without it necessarily working or sitting well. See: my first-time reader reaction to Sansa's entire AGOT storyline.

Personally, I think Jaime has changed, but not as much as many people think or let on that he has. He's changed a little bit, and it has more to do with his responsibility than morality.

Why did she never use that tactic with Robert?

I think she loathes him too much.

The thing is, I don't think Cersei ever really wronged Tyrion. Though she hated him, he's a creep to her. And she only wants to have him killed after she believes he killed her beloved son.

I did feel like she started it though, given how she hated him even in infancy for being ugly and supposedly killing Joanna.

Did anyone else ever get the feeling that Cersei was mildly afraid of Joffrey? When she is describing how she did not plan to have Ned killed to Tyrion, and she notes that Joffrey suddenly insisted, she sounds almost intimidated by her son.

That part made me think that she habitually failed to reign him in, and later Joff speaks rather belittlingly of Cersei's wishes, contributing to my perception of Joffrey not being intimidated by Cersei. Whether or not that also means that Cersei was intimidated by Joffrey, I don't know, I think it's more like she doesn't assert herself over him in order that he may be strong.

Or at least that's my opinion.

Mine as well. I think he sympathizes with Catelyn and Sansa, and IMO empathizes with Catelyn better than Sansa, but no, not as much as Tyrion, that's plainly obvious. There's so much hatred directed Cersei's way through the POV's of other characters (that manages to exceed what's shown to the most comparable male character, Theon), yet she's important (because of her villainy?), and Sansa feels like she's eventually going to be important, while Catelyn's importance is questionable. Ultimately he doesn't really revel in being them, and it shows.

I think he does this so much that he ends up making her act rather out of character for most of the book.

Yes there are valid arguments that she was dumb all along, but I know a whole lot of people who felt a disconnect with Cersei once she got a POV, and that has to happen for a reason. I'm not sure the issue is about in/out of character, it's more that when he saw fit to make room for her perspective, he chose to make her a flatter villain than, for example, her also-dodgy brothers, one whom we're not supposed to invest in the same way, and so much of her villainy is very gendered, and that makes it feel a mite uncomfortable. She's The Bitch, and that's all we're really supposed to care about.

FWIW, I think Theon's POV makes him look very dumb as well but he was more three-dimensional and truly piteous than Cersei, who feels far more like a type or caricature. It's very hard to feel Cersei's humanity from the text.

[Kalbear]

So why didn't she? Any thoughts?

Partially it's that she truly hated him.

Partially it's that she knew that it would never work. Robert didn't worship her. Robert wouldn't be grateful for fucking her. No matter how good in the sack she was, he'd still go out and whore, he'd still beat her when he got drunk, he'd still hate her for not being Lyanna.

Cersei saw it was a losing proposition. She couldn't bend him to her will; he was too willful and would simply do contrary things because it suited him or it pissed her off. She couldnt' stand him. She wasn't going to try to make amends. What else is there?

[evanesco75]

I agree completely about feeling disconnected from Cersei during her own POV. She was very different from the image built of her before, in earlier books. Her scene with Ned stands out: she seems clever, ruthless, and yes, brave. Her first meeting with Tyrion in ACoK is similar: there are times he seems afraid of her, notes to himself how a single misstep could land him in the dungeons or worse and we're meant to understand that a man as clever as Tyrion fears Cersei, and is intimidated by her (not just by virtue of her status as Queen, either). That line about her being able to smell fear indicated this to me.

And that's nearly subverted in AFFC. I understand that she's been through a lot (Joffrey's death especially), but the smug, short-sighted tone of her chapters keeps hammering a single point into the reader: She Is Going To Fail Because She's Incompetent, Vain and Blind to Reality.

And that's a bit skewed, really. The only chapter of hers I enjoyed in AFFC was with Taena, when they're in bed and she's trying to arouse herself via a series of violent, graphic images. There, you get a genuine glimpse of the real, disturbed, damaged person underneath, a person for whom sex is usually a tool for power. That, and her letter to Jaime (self serving or not, I truly liked the bit about how they'd entered the world together and would leave it so).

So yeah, there is a bias. And I don't feel it as much re Sansa either. Despite what she's been through, she seems wiser; GRRM is positioning her for something significant and in the end, she does always end up being 'saved' by some man, as it was in her favourite songs, ironically enough (I say ironic because such men consist of The Hound, Dontos, Tyrion and LF).