U.S. Politics 20

[Commodore]

The protests may stop the bill in question but regardless politics in this state will not be same. Pay attention. History is happening.

Have you been paying attention? Unions are going the way of the dodo bird, state employees are the last to fall and they are kicking and screaming. The days of 0% contribution to pension and health care and retirement with benefits after 15 years are over. We're out of money.

Look around. New York, New Jersey, Ohio, Wisconsin, California, Indiana, they're all taking on public sector unions and winning support for it.

Walker will win, and he'll save taxpayers a shitload of money without laying anyone off. How is that supposed to be unpopular? People getting laid off won't have sympathy for a public worker who has to contribute a little bit to their own pension and health care. Sorry.

Of course, we have a

for situations like this.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704657704576150111817428004.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop

Unions are treating these reforms as Armageddon because they've owned the Wisconsin legislature for years and the changes would reduce their dominance. Under Governor Walker's proposal, the government also would no longer collect union dues from paychecks and then send that money to the unions. Instead, unions would be responsible for their own collection regimes. The bill would also require unions to be recertified annually by a majority of all members. Imagine that: More accountability inside unions.

[Hereward]

Don't see why that's our problem anymore. I'm seriously sick of the billions of dollars of our money that we waste trying to influence every corner of the globe. I don't think that the intent is usually malicious, but even when its well meant, its not usually well received. Fuck 'em all, I say. The world survived a long time without us trying to keep everyone in line.

I'm not necessarily averse to the idea of the US pulling out of the superpower game, but it's worth noting that the world didn't survive without someone keeping it line. Britain used to do it. Post WWI, when Britain couldn't afford to do it anymore, others tried to forcefully do it. Post-WWII, when the US decided to pull back to its home shores, the Soviets tried to do it, causing a swift reverswal of US policy.

If the US decides to pull back now, it either needs to facilitate a new world system of multilateral security, accept the chaos that such a vacuum would bring, and all that would mean for its security and economy, or just let the Chinese step in to try and do it.

[Altherion]

Have you been paying attention? Unions are going the way of the dodo bird, state employees are the last to fall and they are kicking and screaming.

Don't worry, they'll be back. It might take a little time, but in the long run, it's either that or sologdin et al will re-purpose some lampposts.

Walker will win, and he'll save taxpayers a shitload of money without laying anyone off. How is that supposed to be unpopular?

Which taxpayers? The median household income (adjusted for inflation) has been nearly constant for the past 35 years (it's up by about 15% from 1975 to 2008, but you'll lose much of that to the recession). It's not possible to meddle with the taxes of these people too much: you can't raise them by a lot because that crushes consumer spending and you can't lower them by a lot because in absolute terms, these people aren't paying that much in the first place.

The lion's share of the increase in wealth from the past few decades has gone to those who are already quite wealthy. They now control a much larger share of the pie and any scenario of cutting taxes necessarily refers primarily to them (the poor will get something, but if they could do math they'd see that they're getting crumbs). Thus, the main transfer of resources here is from schoolteachers, secretaries and the like to people who have a lot more money than public employees generally do. If they manage to explain this correctly, then no, I don't think it will be popular.

[Sariel]

I like how Commodore, in the need to keep his little bubble intact, ignores the fact that Wisconsins budgetary crisis is a direct result of their recent tax cuts.

[Slick Mongoose]

I like how Commodore, in the need to keep his little bubble intact, ignores the fact that Wisconsins budgetary crisis is a direct result of their recent tax cuts.

But if they reversed those tax cuts, they'd be raising taxes during a recession, and that's really bad.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

I like how Commodore, in the need to keep his little bubble intact, ignores the fact that Wisconsins budgetary crisis is a direct result of their recent tax cuts.

He´s also ignoring the fact that public workers are usually by far the largest group of taxpayers around.

[TrackerNeil]

The republicans did nothing wrong by calling for a fast vote. It is totally legal and acceptable. Democrats lost. This is nothing more than sour grapes.

Do you apply this same reasoning to the multitude of suits filed against the ACA, most of which have been dismissed?

[Tempra]

A fact I acknowledged in my post. My inclusion of this line of reasoning was simply to point out that the republicans did not receive as clear or overwhelming a mandate in this past election as they claim they did. I admit I may not have made it as clear as I could have that in that post why I included the fact that their majority in the Senate is narrow, for which I apologize. The fact remains that due to the rules of this particular state legislature the minority party has next to no ability to even slow down extreme measures that would do significant harm to their constituents.

Absolutely doesn't matter. Just because the rules do not favor the minority party does not mean they can throw the rules out of the window.

While I respect your opinion I have to strongly dispute your comparison of the actions of the State democrats in this situation compared to the actions of the Republicans during the whole of the 111th congress. In the current case we have an isolated extreme action taken in response to an extreme situation. With the republicans of the 111th congress we had an unprecedented systematic pattern of behavior cared out over a period of 2 years. They really are apples and oranges. Now if the democrats repeated this tactic or refused to show up for a number of weeks past when a reasonable amount of time had passed to allow the protests to have a full chance to have an impact on the outcome of the vote, then there would be a more reasonable line of comparison. At this point though I can not see the two as be in any way equivalent.

An extreme situation? Come on. I would wholeheartedly agree with their actions in certain situations. Let's say Mississippi Republicans proposed legislation that would strip African Americans of their right to vote, drive cars, etc. If the Democrats fled to prevent those unconstitutional measures from passing, hurrah, i'd cheer on the Democrats. This is not an extreme measure. The Republicans are passing a lawful measure that they are entitled to pass as the duly elected representatives of Wisconsin.

Will you (and others) respect the Republicans decision to force a lockout of the federal government on March 4th to protest the Democrats crazy spending? God forbid Republicans flee the District. Boarders here would have a shitfit the likes of which we have never seen.

[Tempra]

Do you apply this same reasoning to the multitude of suits filed against the ACA, most of which have been dismissed?

Considering there are two lawsuits that found the mandate unconstitutional, including EVERY lawsuit involving a state. No.

Why would I?

[CelticBrennus]

Have you been paying attention? Unions are going the way of the dodo bird, state employees are the last to fall and they are kicking and screaming. The days of 0% contribution to pension and health care and retirement with benefits after 15 years are over. We're out of money.

So you support the ability of one party to a contract having the unilateral right to change its terms at their whim? Its past despicable for the terms of employment to be changed to the detriment of the union after union members have held up their side of the agreement. Remember, these perks for unions like their health care terms and pensions were bargained for likely in exchange for reduced up front pay. Meaning, that when they sat down and agreed to the labor deal the state got the right to pay them less up front in exchange for these sorts of perks. Now the state wants to kill those perks while not paying them more upfront? Its pathetic and so is anyone who supports it.

Breach of a contract freely entered into like this is supposed to be the one thing that free market types oppose to the end.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

He´s also ignoring the fact that public workers are usually by far the largest group of taxpayers around.

No, private workers are by far the largest group of taxpayers around.

But what's your point? That the state will make less in tax revenue than it saves?

[Andriy Czarchenko]

No, private workers are by far the largest group of taxpayers around.

Private workers are not a group that could be said to work for one entity.

[TrackerNeil]

An extreme situation? Come on. I would wholeheartedly agree with their actions in certain situations. Let's say Mississippi Republicans proposed legislation that would strip African Americans of their right to vote, drive cars, etc. If the Democrats fled to prevent those unconstitutional measures from passing, hurrah, i'd cheer on the Democrats.

The Democrats wouldn't have to flee to prevent those measures; those measures are obviously unconstitutional and wouldn't last two minutes in a federal court. What's going on in Wisconsin is hardly the same thing.

[Usotsuki]

The Republicans are passing a lawful measure that they are entitled to pass as the duly elected representatives of Wisconsin.

So this would be like attempting to block campaign finance reform by having the Republican Senators flee the District.

What an absurd thought, who could possibly imagine Republican politicians scurrying down corridors in an attempt to avoid arrest simply to block a lawful measure that the duly elected representatives of the American people were entitled to pass.

And certainly no Republican politician would describe an attempt to compel Republican Senators to attend a session as behaviour that made the chamber look like a "Banana Republic". That would be madness.

[TrackerNeil]

So this would be like attempting to block campaign finance reform by having the Republican Senators flee the District.

What an absurd thought, who could possibly imagine Republican politicians scurrying down corridors in an attempt to avoid arrest simply to block a lawful measure that the duly elected representatives of the American people were entitled to pass.

And certainly no Republican politician would describe an attempt to compel Republican Senators to attend a session as behaviour that made the chamber look like a "Banana Republic". That would be madness.

I'm going to reveal my ignorance and say, "Did those things really happen?" If so, can you provide more information? I am intrigued.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Public employees don't all work for the same entity either.

[Usotsuki]

TrackerNeil,

Here you go, whether the tactic is a gross outrage of all the principles of elected representation or a heroic attempt to prevent tyranny by the majority depends very much on who is using it at any given time.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lev,

Mark this day. I agree that the employer based health care system is screwed up and a significant impediment to people moving from job to job.

Raidne,

Hasn't Charlotte been in the running for "Murder Capital" recently? Good to know the Democrats are having the National Political convention there in 2012.

[TrackerNeil]

TrackerNeil,

Here you go, whether the tactic is a gross outrage of all the principles of elected representation or a heroic attempt to prevent tyranny by the majority depends very much on who is using it at any given time.

I loved the part about the cleaning woman tipping off Packwood's location. I wonder if they paid her in cigarettes.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

Public employees don't all work for the same entity either.

Nominally? Of course not. However they all do work for the public as one entity.