Robb and Jeyne ... was Sybell telling jaime the truth?

[Guest Other-in-Law]

There is no indication she knew anything about the Red Wedding or in any other way had anything to do with bringing Robb down.

Just plain wrong. Her brother is being rewarded for his help by being raised up to Lord of Castamere, and she spoke of how Tywin promised good marriage deals for Jeyne and her sisters. Jeyne was already married to Robb. Therefore she knew perfectly well that Robb was being taken out of the picture through her little agreement with Tywin. If she knew about the plot but didn't warn Robb, she's complicit.

[Aegon VI Blackfyre]

Just plain wrong. Her brother is being rewarded for his help by being raised up to Lord of Castamere, and she spoke of how Tywin promised good marriage deals for Jeyne and her sisters. Jeyne was already married to Robb. Therefore she knew perfectly well that Robb was being taken out of the picture through her little agreement with Tywin. If she knew about the plot but didn't warn Robb, she's complicit.

What exactly did she know? That Tywin intended to kill Robb sooner or later? Tywin's offer could have been: "Make sure she doesn't conceive and you brother get's a lordship. Jeyne's siblings will get a good marriage deals and Jeyne as well, once we kill Robb." Everyone knew that they were going for Robb's head sooner or later, either by war or treachery, no great revelation there.

I don't think it's the most likely explanation, but I think it's odd to believe that Sybell Spicer is a lying, scheming bastard all the way only to assume that everything she tells Jaime is true.

[Noroldis]

We don't know that she did anything but placate Tywin, except for the moontea. Even the moontea is only by Sybells claim to Jaime. For all we know she could have been feeding Jeyne real fertility potions all along.

(I think you mean "to placate Tywin".) Yes, Sybell could have been feeding Jeyne real fertility potions all along - but again, this brings us back to the huge risk that crossing Tywin represents. Whether or not the moon tea (and of course, as Other-in-Law points out, not warning Robb of the coming betrayal) was Tywin's only demand of Sybell and her brother is unknown, but they clearly fulfilled their part of the bargain according to Tywin's expectations given that he pardoned them and raised Rolph Spicer to lord.

IMO the situation was this - Robb attacks the Crag and is wounded. Sensing opportunity, Sybell sends her daughter to help heal him, hoping for exactly what happened between Robb and Jeyne. Only she then learns that the Lannisters have allied with the Tyrells and smashed Stannis, making the chances of a Stark victory dismal. So she, with the help of her brother, begin wondering how to get back into Twyin's good graces. Or maybe Sybell planned all along to weaken Robb by having him marry Jeyne (and thus break his word to the Freys) and contacted Tywin with effusive assurances that she'd been loyal all along, that she'd let her daughter marry Robb only so as to weaken him, and what could she and her brother further do to help the Lannister cause?

[Guest Other-in-Law]

What exactly did she know? That Tywin intended to kill Robb sooner or later? Tywin's offer could have been: "Make sure she doesn't conceive and you brother get's a lordship. Jeyne's siblings will get a good marriage deals and Jeyne as well, once we kill Robb." Everyone knew that they were going for Robb's head sooner or later, either by war or treachery, no great revelation there.

Earlier, you wrote:

There is no indication she knew anything about the Red Wedding or in any other way had anything to do with bringing Robb down.

If by that, you meant that she had no idea what tunes they were going to play, and that the minstrels would be archers to shoot down the guests, well sure. She wouldn't have been privy to all the sordid details. But she was obviously one of the participants in the overall Red Wedding plot, and conspired to make Robb a corpse and have her family richly rewarded for it. She totally was involved in bringing Robb down.

I don't think it's the most likely explanation, but I think it's odd to believe that Sybell Spicer is a lying, scheming bastard all the way only to assume that everything she tells Jaime is true.

Now that Tywin's dead, she could get away with a little bit of strategic lying. Maybe Tywin only promised marriages to younger sons, and she decided to inflate it to lords or heirs. That wouldn't be telling Jaime 100% truth. But to think that because she's a backstabber she needs to backstab everybody all the time makes no sense; if you do that than the whole world becomes your enemy instead of select people. She seems to see which side her bread is buttered on, and crossing Lord Tywin would have been a bad plan.

[Lord Godric]

Not the same as "narrow" in Cat's mind, no. Very possibly the same thing as "narrow" in Jaime's mind.

Can I just ask: You make it sound like Martin did this intentionally. That he purposely had Catelyn think of Jeyne's hips as wide and Jaime think of them as narrow. If that is the case: why would he do that? Just simply to show the differing PoVs? That sound pretty pointless to me. If Martin didn't do it intentionally, then it was just a rather large error to make and get past editors. Martin isn't know for his errors, but is for his subtle clues.

Now, that doesn't mean I support this theory. I would love it to be true, but the holes are too large to ignore. If there does turn out to be something, I'll be glad. If not, I won't be shocked.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

That sound pretty pointless to me. If Martin didn't do it intentionally, then it was just a rather large error to make and get past editors.

How is this a larger error than changing hair colors and eye colors? And yet nobody thinks that Renly's been replaced.

[Lord Godric]

How is this a larger error than changing hair colors and eye colors? And yet nobody thinks that Renly's been replaced.

I don't know if it's a larger error, but it certainly is a large one. Catelyn noticed how good her hips were, George italicizes it, adding emphasis. Then Jaime mentions she had narrow hips. I don't think this is concrete evidence she was switched, but I also don't think George is using this to show us differing points of view regarding her hips. Either it was a careless mistake, one George made worse by making Catelyn emphasize the thought or it's a hint. I think it's probably the first because of other large plot holes, but I can see the basis for the theory.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I don't know if it's a larger error, but it certainly is a large one.

It's not a large error in and of itself. It's not a larger error than Renly's eye color inherently, because it comes down to GRRM (like 99.99% of his readers) forgetting about a minor bit of physical description 1500 pages earlier in the narrative. The only reason that it appears to be a large error is because some people have proposed a theory based around it, blowing the importance of the inconsistency all out of proportion. This mistake is very much in keeping with the kind of minor inconsistencies in description that GRRM has himself lamented on multiple occasions.

I'm not just making semantic distinctions here. I think your comment that this "was just a rather large error to make and get past editors" is wildly off the mark. The series has occasionally suffered from more glaring errors, in particular Arianne's reference to Tywin's death several pages before she learned that he had died. It's both a more important error and contained entirely within a single chapter. (And indeed it was removed when AFFC was released in paperback, so I believe that the current editions wouldn't have it.) Compared to that, it is easy for me to believe that an editor responsible for any number of books in a year can't remember the hip size of a tertiary character five years after the book with the relevant information was published.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I'm not an adherent to this theory, but it's entirely possible that Sybell was forced into doing this by circumstances. If the Blackfish escaped with Jeyne prior to the opening of the Riverrun gates, Sybell really has no way of stopping them.

And after Jaime's forces take over, she may be part of the ruse simply because she doesn't want to anger the Lannisters. She may not be trying to pull the switch to betray them as much as self-preservation to make sure they don't think her family has divided loyalties,

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I'm not an adherent to this theory, but it's entirely possible that Sybell was forced into doing this by circumstances. If the Blackfish escaped with Jeyne prior to the opening of the Riverrun gates, Sybell really has no way of stopping them.

And after Jaime's forces take over, she may be part of the ruse simply because she doesn't want to anger the Lannisters. She may not be trying to pull the switch to betray them as much as self-preservation to make sure they don't think her family has divided loyalties,

I agree that once the Lannisters discovered the obvious ruse that implicated her family in treason, nobody would think that Lady Sybell's loyalties were in any way divided. And if she simply wanted to buy some time, faking her daughter's death would raise much fewer questions in the moment than having Eleyna pose as Jeyne (while apparently nobody wonders where Sybell's other daughter is this whole time).

[Aegon VI Blackfyre]

I agree that once the Lannisters discovered the obvious ruse that implicated her family in treason, nobody would think that Lady Sybell's loyalties were in any way divided. And if she simply wanted to buy some time, faking her daughter's death would raise much fewer questions in the moment than having Eleyna pose as Jeyne (while apparently nobody wonders where Sybell's other daughter is this whole time).

IRRC the other daughter is there all along, so unless they've made some kind of major musical crowns, supposed fake Jeyne is just some other girl, a servant or some knight's daughter.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

IRRC the other daughter is there all along, so unless they've made some kind of major musical crowns, supposed fake Jeyne is just some other girl, a servant or some knight's daughter.

In that case how do they prevent Lord Gawen from betraying the plot at their (perhaps unavoidably public) reunion, through a sudden exclamation or even just a look of bewilderment? How do they prevent some random Yarwyck younger son who had a crush on Jeyne from blurting out the truth when he recognises the imposture? Isn't this a frankly insane risk to take when they are utterly at the mercy of the forces they are attempting to deceive in such an incompetent fashion?

Note that this is the very opposite of the fake-Arya Stark going north with Roose Bolton situation. In that case, the ruthless prevailing power is fully an accomplice of the fraud, and his own men expose it (if they could) at the risk of being flayed alive. Under the 'fake-Jeyne Westerling' theory, the peril of their overlord's displeasure comes from not revealing any discrepancy as soon as they notice it.

[tuthmoses]

the fact that jeyne may be pregnant with rob's heir would give the north/the blackfish a reason to fight on. Him escaping riverrun then becomes something major. If she wasn't pregnant then as far as edmure/the blackfish/pretty much everyone else knows the entire stark dynasty has been wiped out. Who is their banner flying for then? And why is the blackfish almost laughing at Jaime over his reference to it? It just doesn't make sense that Edmure and the blackfish would be so happy and cocky in that situation.

I mean their war has completely failed their royal family (starks) has been completely wiped out apart from a bastard on the wall who even if he was to accept Rob's letter would still have to go some to get the loyalty of rob's bannermen ... i mean look what rob the completly legit stark heir had to do to get the greatjon's loyalty. The blackfish has no hope of continuing the fight with no king to fight for and thus him escaping looks more like running ...which does not fit with his character AT ALL.

When Stannis sends his letters demanding fealty what is this business of "blah blah knows only one king whos name is stark" There are no starks left as far as anyone knows! Unless some of Rob's surviving bannermen know something the reader doesn't.

The fact that Edmure seems so happy and cocky is very weird. I mean he has literally NOTHING to be pleased with himself about. Unless .... there is a king in the north in jeyne's tummy. At least thats how it seems to me. Otherwise him being happy is just perverse. I mean so the blackfish got away is that gonna make him so happy? I don't think so lol

Also as it stands since bran can't have kids there is only one person left to carry on the stark name ... Rickon it doesn't leave martin much room for keeping the Stark name alive. If nothing else the possibility of another another male Stark gives him a little extra to work with.

[tuthmoses]

I'm not just making semantic distinctions here. I think your comment that this "was just a rather large error to make and get past editors" is wildly off the mark. The series has occasionally suffered from more glaring errors, in particular Arianne's reference to Tywin's death several pages before she learned that he had died. It's both a more important error and contained entirely within a single chapter. (And indeed it was removed when AFFC was released in paperback, so I believe that the current editions wouldn't have it.) Compared to that, it is easy for me to believe that an editor responsible for any number of books in a year can't remember the hip size of a tertiary character five years after the book with the relevant information was published.

i think its the fact that cat mentioned her hips twice and in italics once ... so clearly something that martin considered important and wanted to hammer home to the reader. Jaime also thought her hips were noteworthy. But the descriptions are basically the exact opposite. Also this 'error' has been pointed out for a long time now yet unlike the one you refer to has not been 'corrected' i think its more likely that martin did it delibrately to leave the possibility open.

[Gurkhal]

The fact that Edmure seems so happy and cocky is very weird. I mean he has literally NOTHING to be pleased with himself about. Unless .... there is a king in the north in jeyne's tummy. At least thats how it seems to me. Otherwise him being happy is just perverse. I mean so the blackfish got away is that gonna make him so happy? I don't think so lol

The Blackfish is out and with soome luck he has a good chance to cause enough hell to return Riverrun back to the Tullys. It seems to me that Edmure managed to outwit Jaime, and thus kind of spoil the Lannister victory over the Tullys. And really, what would be the alternative? Jaime would storm to castle and kill every one of those inside, this way the Tullys can continue to cause hell and will not face immediate extermination but have their existance relatively secured.

[Noroldis]

The reason Catelyn once mentions Jeyne's good hips in italics is because it's part of a thought of hers, and like many authors GRRM uses italics for a POV character's internal monologue:

ASoS, p. 234 US hardcover version.

He did not answer, but she had never expected that he would. As the sound of the rain on the roof mingled with her father's breathing, she thought about Jeyne. The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb had said. And good hips, which might be more important.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Who is their banner flying for then?

I don't understand this question. Assume for the sake of argument that Jeyne is not pregnant with anybody's heir. What would prompt the Blackfish to publicly acknowledge that his position is hopeless? He's under siege. Morale is paramount lest he lose control over the situation entirely, at which point lord knows what will happen to him and the people under his command. Besides which, he couldn't take down the banner without acknowledging that weakness to the enemy, giving them a psychological advantage over him when that's the last thing he could allow.

And why is the blackfish almost laughing at Jaime over his reference to it?

I'm going to take a leap and suggest that perhaps an enemy general is not somebody that the Blackfish would admit any kind of weakness to.

[Aegon VI Blackfyre]

In that case how do they prevent Lord Gawen from betraying the plot at their (perhaps unavoidably public) reunion, through a sudden exclamation or even just a look of bewilderment? How do they prevent some random Yarwyck younger son who had a crush on Jeyne from blurting out the truth when he recognises the imposture? Isn't this a frankly insane risk to take when they are utterly at the mercy of the forces they are attempting to deceive in such an incompetent fashion?

I agree that it's a very large risk to take, and it could not have been anyones plan A. But if Jeyne is pregnant and if she has fled with the Blackfish, it might just work to buy them a bit of time by doing this. It says in the chapter that the confusion of it all means that it takes most of the day before they have taken the castle and Jaime gets around to talking to the Westerlings. That might have been all the time they were hoping to buy. That the lucked out by not having that lovestricken Yarwyck around is just a bonus, which might end up buying them a week.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

It says in the chapter that the confusion of it all means that it takes most of the day before they have taken the castle and Jaime gets around to talking to the Westerlings. That might have been all the time they were hoping to buy.

You're forgetting that Sybell and her children are leaving Riverrun with the Lannisters, and hence will be in their custody for days. Jaime has archers stationed around them, on high alert. This plan has to hold together for days, with plenty of chances of it to fall apart along the way.

[Aegon VI Blackfyre]

You're forgetting that Sybell and her children are leaving Riverrun with the Lannisters, and hence will be in their custody for days. Jaime has archers stationed around them, on high alert. This plan has to hold together for days, with plenty of chances of it to fall apart along the way.

I'm not sure what you mean...? In this scenario, what matters is that real-Jeyne is away with the Blackfish and that every hour lets them get further away. Of course the rest of the Westerlings would be in deep trouble once the jig is up, but at that point Jeyne might be safe.