Catelyn

[Whitering]

I am sure somebody has probably stated this before but I am pretty sure Robb felt he had to marry Jeyne because of the way Cat treated Jon.

All of the children, except maybe Sansa, really loved Jon and without Cat's influence would definitely have thought of him as their brother. Jon basically got treated like shit because of Cat. Robb saw this for his whole life and would not want to be responsible for a child being treated that way.

So, Cat played a huge role in Robb getting killed, but even as her life nears its end she still thinks that men just won't listen to her even though she is right; for example, regarding Robb's legitimization of Jon.

Karma can really smack you a lot harder than it should.

[Lord Godric]

I think you'll find it hard to prove that "Catelyn treated Jon like shit." It is generally believed that Catelyn just ignored Jon mostly, and only under extreme stress at Bran's bedside did she treat him cruel.

[MountainThatRides]

How is that not the same thing? Catelyn is the only mother-figure Jon ever had. She was wed to his father and the matriarch of the household; along with Maester Luwin (and to a lesser extent, Old Nan) she raised the children. If she largely ignored Jon, and only acknowledged him with contempt or, at best, tolerated him, it's similar to not having a mother at all. Now, that begs the question: would you rather have a mother who treats you like shit, or one who just ignores you? That's a whole other realm of dysfunction, but it seems to me like Jon had a little of both. Winterfell was rife with father-figures for Jon. He's learned from all the men who lived and worked within the Stark household, and most of all from Eddard; all he learned from Catelyn was that he was a bastard, unworthy, low. She reminded him of this fact and reinforced it constantly, even by simply ignoring him.

Like all of the characters in the series, Catelyn is three-dimensional; they're all quite capable of being cruel, whether or not they could be considered fundamentally good. Catelyn I'd consider a good person, and a mostly selfless one, whose motivation (much like Cersei's) is primarily driven by and for her children. Regardless of this fact, she is still cold in nature. You could see her coldness in her youth -- how she treated Petyr when he dueled Brandon. She put her duty before her emotions, always, and while this can usually be commended, it also begets a fierce pride. Pride was why she scorned Jon. He represented Eddard's infidelity; he did not choose his parents, his bastardy or how he was born. He came into the world an innocent, and Catelyn used him as an embodiment of her resentment for Ned. There is no reasonable cause for how she treats Jon. A different person might have accepted the past as something unchangeable and been a mother to Jon out of love for Ned. Or, failing that, out of charity. She's a normal person with flaws like the rest of us; she's not the Mountain, but she's not a saint either.

In closing, E.B. Farnum said this, and I think it applicable:

Puberty may bring you to understand, what we take for mother love is really murderous hatred and a desire for revenge.

[Alexia]

Catelyn was not Jon's mother. He lived in her household, but that does not make her his mother. She chose not to accept the role of surrogate mother and that was her choice.

[Lady Blackfish]

No, ignoring Jon is not the same thing as treating him like shit or depriving him of a mother figure. She is the woman Ned cheated on to beget Jon, not even in our society today would we ask her to be Jon's mother. If Jon is lacking a mother figure, it is due to Ned, who could've very well provided him one. But he certainly doesn't seem to expect Catelyn to be one, neither does anyone expect a noble lady to be a mother figure to her husband's bastard. Luwin and Rodrik don't even expect Lady Hornwood to like her husband's bastard, there is just no expectation in this society (or ours) for a woman to be a mother to the child her husband cheated on her to beget.

Treating Jon like shit would maybe entail preventing him from being fed or clothed or socializing with his half-siblings, none of which went on. "How she treats Jon" is to keep herself removed from him and keep the line between his status and her children's distinct, and there's certainly reasonable cause for that. And she is hardly the sole reason that Jon is aware that he is a bastard.

[Monday]

Really? Don't you think it's a tad unfair to suggest that Cat's treatment of Jon is what got Robb killed? Jeyne wasn't pregnant when Robb married her. He could have waited to see if she was before marrying her, if you think the marriage was based on the fear of fathering bastard.

Why are people so bloody eager to blame Cat for everything?

MountainThatRides - Perfectly put.

[Daena the Defiant]

How is that not the same thing? Catelyn is the only mother-figure Jon ever had.

That would be Ned's fault. He should have had him reared as the ward of some loyal vassal, or at the very least, give him some servant woman to raise.

She was wed to his father and the matriarch of the household; along with Maester Luwin (and to a lesser extent, Old Nan) she raised the children.

And Septa Mordaine, and the servants and the master-at arms.

Catelyn is not a housewife. She is the chatelaine of a huge feudal institution. She did not bathe her children, she did not cook for her children, she didn't tend to their boo-boos. She has the help for that. She is a high-status political wife who is amazingly shamed by her husband's public insult by passing off his by-blow in her own household.

Despite the fact that Ned's insistence that Jon live among them shamed her among her peers and is vastly insulting to House Tully, Catelyn never did anything other than remain aloof (except the Bran incident).

She did allow Jon to live in the same apartments as her children, not some barrack or garret somewhere, she did allow him to eat at the same table as her children, not down in some basement with the servants, she did allow him be dressed as well and as richly as her own children, not attire him in cast-offs and burlap, she did allow him to receive the exact same noble-class education as her own sons by a maester and a master-at-arms, and not set him to spend his days mucking out stables or dredging the moat.

Truly what a horrible person she must be.

If Jon felt out of place and not in the family circle of luv, that is Ned's fault, not hers.

[Daena the Defiant]

Like all of the characters in the series, Catelyn is three-dimensional; they're all quite capable of being cruel, whether or not they could be considered fundamentally good. Catelyn I'd consider a good person, and a mostly selfless one, whose motivation (much like Cersei's) is primarily driven by and for her children. Regardless of this fact, she is still cold in nature. You could see her coldness in her youth -- how she treated Petyr when he dueled Brandon. She put her duty before her emotions, always, and while this can usually be commended, it also begets a fierce pride. Pride was why she scorned Jon. He represented Eddard's infidelity; he did not choose his parents, his bastardy or how he was born. There is no reasonable cause for how she treats Jon.

Are you actually saying that if your partner just dropped a baby on your lap and said "here! This is the product of my affair with another person! Raise him and love and hug him!" you would just say "sure!" And that is the only reasonable reaction?

She didn't do anything harmful to him - she allowed him to be raised in palatial luxury, free from want or hunger. She didn't even insist that he be raised in some other castle, or even another *part* of the castle. He lived in the Stark family apartments and ate at the Stark family table. If felt that he was on the outs from his parent, that would be Ned's fault, not hers.

[Areo]

To get on the original question, I don't think the relationship Cat-Jon has much to do with the decision for marriage. This is all due to the out-of-proportion sense of Stark duty his father taught him. So, if there's anyone to be blamed for all this mess it's Ned. Remember, this was planned, so it's a weakness easily recognisable by his enemies. And effetively exploited.

[Daena the Defiant]

I am sure somebody has probably stated this before but I am pretty sure Robb felt he had to marry Jeyne because of the way Cat treated Jon.

All of the children, except maybe Sansa, really loved Jon and without Cat's influence would definitely have thought of him as their brother. Jon basically got treated like shit because of Cat. Robb saw this for his whole life and would not want to be responsible for a child being treated that way.

So, Cat played a huge role in Robb getting killed, but even as her life nears its end she still thinks that men just won't listen to her even though she is right; for example, regarding Robb's legitimization of Jon.

This is a risible post.

Catelyn never mistreated Jon except that one time, nor can she be responsible for how Westerosi noble society regards bastardy in general (1). Can you provide any textual citations to support your daring new thesis?

Indeed, Catelyn tolerated a lot of social stigma for the way her husband mistreated her, and even then she allowed the ignominy of allowing her husband's bastard to be raised in her own household.

1) for example, allowing Elaria Sand to sit at the same table as the noblewomen at Joffrey's wedding would be a grave insult to them and their houses.

edit: spelling, syntax

[mummer]

Well, I think Whitering sort of has a point: Jon is Robb's best friend and Robb probably does realize Jon has gotten a raw deal due to being a bastard. And Robb being Robb, his reaction wouldn't be to question the rightness of the system, or to think any less of his father; but it could make him think "I don't want to put anyone else in that position." So I don't think it's just an abstract matter of honor to him.

But it doesn't make sense to blame Cat in particular. Her attitude is no different than anyone else in Westeros as far as we can tell from anything shown in the books. Ned's relatively warm treatment of Jon is considered pretty odd by most of his peers, even though he is the boy's biological parent (as far as anyone knows). Robert's recognition of Edric was a special case and he had more leeway since he was king... but he still didn't bring Edric to live with him. I mean, don't get me wrong, it'd be great if Cat acted like a mother to Jon, and I think GRRM does want us to feel some pain about that; but that doesn't make her a mean person or a bad influence on Robb, it just means she's a normal person by the standards of her world instead of being a saint.

[Daena the Defiant]

Well, I think Whitering sort of has a point: Jon is Robb's best friend and Robb probably does realize Jon has gotten a raw deal due to being a bastard.

Is he?

Or would you say it was Theon? However, it wasn't out of fear that Jeyne was carrying a bastard that Robb married Jeyne - Jeyne never said she was pregnant, nor did she exhibit any signs.

He married her because *she* was going to carry a social stigma of having her virginity taken outside of marriage, so the whole notion that Catelyn's "treating Jon like shit" caused Robb to break alliances and get them all betrayed and killed all so he could make sure that Jeyne's hypothetical baby never deals with the brunt of bastardy that his mother's appalling conduct instilled in him as a likelihood is complete and utter nonsense. (And don't even get me started on the original comment that she dies thinking all men are wrong and should have listened to her - the list of correct decisions she made and options she suggested but were ignored and rejected goes on and on and on....)

Even if, assuming arguendo, Jeyne was carrying his bastard, Robb, as the King in the North, was the one holding all the cards - he could have his bastard well placed and well cared for and not rub his infidelity in the face of House Frey by forcing "Waldina Frey" (his intended bride, whoever she ended up being) to abide Jeyne's bastard in her home.

edit: holding all the cards, not playing all the cards, Daena. Duh.

[Lady Blackfish]

Yeah, this argument (which has indeed come up before) is putting cart before horse. Whatever impact Catelyn's "treatment" of Jon had on his life, it was only possible because Ned brought his bastard home to live amongst his trueborn children against all custom. If Robb had impregnated Jeyne and then gone on to marry his lady Frey, he would only subject his little wolf cub to *gasp* the aloof indifference of his wife if he then went on to bring his bastard home to live with him in Winterfell. Ned probably only did this because of some exceptional mitigating factor that doesn't even apply to Robb.

[mummer]

Daena, I think I made it pretty clear that I didn't think Catelyn had anything to do with it, nor did I think she treated Jon like shit. No one is arguing with you about that at this point.

And I don't disagree that Robb acted out of concern for Jeyne, as he said... but I'm not sure why you're so vehemently opposed to the idea that Robb's family background might've also made him extra nervous about the prospect of fathering a bastard, even nervous to a degree that others in Westeros would consider unreasonable. We'll never know though, because if that was on his mind, he wouldn't known how to talk to Catelyn about it and he wasn't really confiding in anyone else.

Anyway, I understand your logic-- although I don't get the part about "Jeyne didn't look pregnant yet", which Monday also mentioned; Robb couldn't very well go back to the Freys and then marry Jeyne three months later if she started showing. But Robb is 16, and I think we all agree that some of his decisions don't make sense on a practical level.

[Nine of Spades]

Catelyn never mistreated Jon except that one time, nor can she be responsible for how Westerosi noble society regards bastardy in general (1). Can you provide any textual citations to support your daring new thesis?

Really? I don't recall there being any textual evidence that it was the only time Catelyn ever said anything cruel to him. I do however recall Jon being afraid to say goodbye to Bran as long as Catelyn was with Bran, so it would seem to indicate he expected things to go poorly and was afraid of her.

She didn't do anything harmful to him - she allowed him to be raised in palatial luxury, free from want or hunger. She didn't even insist that he be raised in some other castle, or even another *part* of the castle. He lived in the Stark family apartments and ate at the Stark family table. If felt that he was on the outs from his parent, that would be Ned's fault, not hers.

Actually, she insisted that he not be in the castle the moment Ned left, so I'm uncertain how you can say that she allowed it, so much as she decided to not have a knock down drag out with Ned over it. She couldn't even stomach the boy for her childrens sake. They loved Jon as much as Ned did. The difference? Ned could overrule her, and she knew it.

[Daena the Defiant]

And I don't disagree that Robb acted out of concern for Jeyne, as he said... but I'm not sure why you're so vehemently opposed to the idea that Robb's family background might've also made him extra nervous about the prospect of fathering a bastard, even nervous to a degree that others in Westeros would consider unreasonable.

I mostly think it's a lame idea because even if there was a bastardo on the way, there are myriad ways that he, Lord of Winterfell, King o'the North, could ameliorate the impact and make sure that his bastard child's life doesn't parallel Jon's.

Anyway, I understand your logic-- although I don't get the part about "Jeyne didn't look pregnant yet", which Monday also mentioned; Robb couldn't very well go back to the Freys and then marry Jeyne three months later if she started showing. But Robb is 16, and I think we all agree that some of his decisions don't make sense on a practical level.

But she wasn't pregnant - there isn't a scintilla of a suggestion that Robb did as he did to make sure that a possible pregnancy doesn't result in a bastard. We do have evidence that he was long on honor and short on practicality. He felt that he had soiled Jeyne and tried to make it right (1). It would have been a laudable and indeed, swell gesture on his part if a kingdom wasn't resting on the marital pact he agreed to.

It's really rather tragic in a stupid way.

I do take amusement in the fact that people tend to chalk up Robb's mistakes do to his youth, yet then chastise Catelyn (I am not saying you do, of course, but it's a common attack on her) for trying to "meddle" and "control him."

1) of course, the jury's still out on whether Jeyne allowed herself to be soiled in the first place, after all Jeyne Westerling is as much her mother's daughter as Robb Stark is his father's son. Ned was notoriously honorable yet naive.... Sybella Westerling is scheming opportunist: what does that suggest about Jeyne, I wonder?

[Daena the Defiant]

Really? I don't recall there being any textual evidence that it was the only time Catelyn ever said anything cruel to him. I do however recall Jon being afraid to say goodbye to Bran as long as Catelyn was with Bran, so it would seem to indicate he expected things to go poorly and was afraid of her.

Oh well. Go try and find some.

[Lord Godric]

For what it's worth, Nine of Spades, from So Spake Martin:

Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

[Daena the Defiant]

Nothing. That jury can go back to wherever they came from. From the only textual evidence we have it is clear that the girl loved Robb dearly. - and was a complete opposite of her Mother.

Yes, she came to love him dearly... later. When Lord Tywin makes her comment about her being Tywin states, "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter, and Robb Stark is his father's son." (aSoS, Chapter 19).

What does that mean? Or, what is that meant to suggest? Sybella Spicer married above her strata... did Jeyne whish to do so as well? Probably, but what was she willing to do to make it happen? And why exactly is she 'tending' to Robb's wounds anyway? Shouldn't that be the maester's job?

[Nine of Spades]

For what it's worth, Nine of Spades, from So Spake Martin:

Fair enough. Though it isn't strictly textual evidence, since it supplementary material. ;)

I still think that its a bit nebulous though. For example if Ned said, "lets have a family dinner", and Catelyn said, "Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya, come along" she wouldn't have had to say anything actually cruel to make Jon feel pretty low. And it would fit in with GRRMs comment about drawing a strong line between trueborn and bastard.

Or to put it another way, through racial profiling you can have very very poor relations between police and an ethnic group, even though the police stick to the letter of the law, because their application of it clearly creates two classes of people.