A Thread for Small Questions VII

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

2. Here have been some threads about Jon knowing about Lady's death and of Nymeria's absence and some speculation about a letter Jon got, but later, after Jon thoughts about that we learn (in a Bran POV in ACOK) that Bran does not know about this. How is this possible - the only answers I could expect were Arya sending a letter to Jon (off screen) or Jon's warg connection to ghost - but I think the latter is unlikly, because Bran is the stronger warg.

Edit: Following to this question: What happend to Lady's body? It should have been at Winterfell during Bran's POV in ACOK and so he should have known about Lady's death?

Lady's body was returned to Winterfell. Bran remembers it happening when they receive Sansa's letter from King's Landing in A Game of Thrones. I'm not aware of anything to the contrary in ACOK. Could you quote the relevant passage?

[Pink Walder Frey]

Lady's body was returned to Winterfell. Bran remembers it happening when they receive Sansa's letter from King's Landing in A Game of Thrones. I'm not aware of anything to the contrary in ACOK. Could you quote the relevant passage?

I'll have to do some research on it, but I'm sure it was in the beginning of one of Bran's wolf dreams in ACFC, where he thougt about him and his five siblings and that he knows that they are not all around (but not thinks that one of them was dead), but not sure what chapter it was. I just came around with the question when I heared this thought, but I'll have to look for it - I did a quick research in the audiobooks but couldn'd find it right now.

[LC Snow]

I'll have to do some research on it, but I'm sure it was in the beginning of one of Bran's wolf dreams in ACFC, where he thougt about him and his five siblings and that he knows that they are not all around (but not thinks that one of them was dead), but not sure what chapter it was. I just came around with the question when I heared this thought, but I'll have to look for it - I did a quick research in the audiobooks but couldn'd find it right now.

This is because when he is skin changed into an animal his thoughts and perceptions are affected by said animal. I get the feeling that many of the times Bran slipped into summer, especially at first, that he was just an observer of Summer's thoughts and perceptions and did not really influence anything. This would explain his very basic understanding of what happened to Lady, as it was actually Summer's thoughts, knowing she was gone but not fully understanding.

I think its fair to say that even when a skin changer slips in and takes control the host is not gone but is still very much there and they are sharing the skin rather than one or the other having complete control, thus their thoughts are influenced by each other and shared.

[mummer]

1. Was it ever explained how Jon found out about ghost lost alone without his siblings? We know that ghost never makes a sound, but Jon said, that he heared something in this scene. I read some suspections about his warg connection to ghost, but I didn't find something real concrete.

It was left ambiguous, but your suspicion seems reasonable to me.

3. Why did Rickard Karstark leave the room, when Robb proclaimed his conditions for peace in Riverrun, while he had earlier agreed to peace, when Robb was proclaimed as King of the north? Even Jaimie should still held as a captive in this conditions, so I didn't see a change from the earlier proclamation.

Karstark has always been an angry guy, but over the course of the story he gets angrier and more obsessed with punishing the Lannisters, and every time Robb behaves diplomatically instead of aggressively it makes Karstark even angrier.

4. Why did Mandon Moore try to kill Tyrion?

Tyrion thinks it was Cersei; some people here think it was Littlefinger. As you said, we just don't know yet.

5. Who names new members of the kingsguard - I would expect the King (or his regent), or the Lordcommander of the kingsguard.

The King, or his regent.

6. Did enyone else recognize the parallels between Eddard and Stannis?

Yes, that's often been mentioned, although your point about Brandon is one that I hadn't thought of in that way.

[Whatever]

Question. A thing i can't figure out, and it isn't worth a whole thread.

GRRM said that Jon is about 8 or 9 months older than dany, and we know Dany is born 9 months after the sack of king's landing. Does it mean Jon is born during the sack of king's landing? If we think about R+L, there is something weird.

If ned is a KL right after the sack and then goes to dragonstone and maybe somewhere else - to find out where lyaanna was - and then to the ToJ itself... shouldn't jon be already born by that time? So, or jon is a little youger, or lyanna didn't die in a child bed, or jon is not lyanna's son. Or i'm wrong, of course :cheers:

so... can anyone help me to figure it out?

[SFDanny]

Question. A thing i can't figure out, and it isn't worth a whole thread.

GRRM said that Jon is about 8 or 9 months older than dany, and we know Dany is born 9 months after the sack of king's landing. Does it mean Jon is born during the sack of king's landing? If we think about R+L, there is something weird.

If ned is a KL right after the sack and then goes to dragonstone and maybe somewhere else - to find out where lyaanna was - and then to the ToJ itself... shouldn't jon be already born by that time? So, or jon is a little youger, or lyanna didn't die in a child bed, or jon is not lyanna's son. Or i'm wrong, of course :cheers:

so... can anyone help me to figure it out?

I'll try. We know Daenerys is born nine moons after the sack - give or take a few days to a week. We know Jon is "eight or nine months" older than Dany. What that means, of course, is that Jon is born approximately the same time as the sack or a month later - noting that this is an approximation so that an adjustment of a few weeks either way certainly is possible. Now, we also know Ned leaves shortly after Robert has his coronation - the same day he argues with Robert over Tywin's display of Elia and her children's bodies before the Iron Throne. He, Ned, then goes south and lifts the siege of Storm's End and then travels with six comrades to the Tower of Joy. If Jon is eight months, not nine, older than Dany this means Ned has a month or so to travel to Storm's End and on to the Tower of Joy. If you look at the distance to Storm's End from King's Landing, and guessing the Tower is not all the way to the western end of the Red Mountains but somewhat closer to Storm's End, this time actually figures out quite well for R+L=J assuming the eight months Jon/Dany difference. If it is a nine month gap, it probably means Jon is already born, and, assuming R+L=J, Jon could be about a month old when Ned arrives. For Lyanna to have died from complications from childbirth her death has to take place somewhere between immediately after Jon is born to about 10 days after his birth (assuming puerperal fever* as the likely cause of death.) So the closer to the eighth month gap and farther away from the nine month timeframe we get the more likely it is that Lyanna's death fits into the R+L=J theory with childbirth complications as the cause of her death. It has to be noted that a nine month or longer timeframe does not rule out R+L=J, but it does make it hard to see how Lyanna is dying from childbirth complications when Ned finds her. Lots of information still unknown, I know, but that's the best I can do looking at the timeline implications given what we know now.

*

Definition of puerperal fever

A temperature rise above 100.0 °F (38°C) maintained over 24 hours or recurring during the period from the end of the first to the end of the 10th day after childbirth or abortion. (ICD-10)

Oral temperature of 100.0 °F (38°C) or more on any two of the first ten days postpartum.

[lareplus]

I think it is possible that Jon is not actually Ned's son, but that he is protecting someone by assuming the role of father.

[corbon]

3. Why did Rickard Karstark leave the room, when Robb proclaimed his conditions for peace in Riverrun, while he had earlier agreed to peace, when Robb was proclaimed as King of the north? Even Jaimie should still held as a captive in this conditions, so I didn't see a change from the earlier proclamation.

Jaime killed two of Karstark's sons (in fair battle) while they tried to capture him at the Whispering Wood.

Rickard has basically gone mad for revenge and cannot accept any sort of peace deal with the Lannisters.

[Yarl Snow]

Question. A thing i can't figure out, and it isn't worth a whole thread.

GRRM said that Jon is about 8 or 9 months older than dany, and we know Dany is born 9 months after the sack of king's landing. Does it mean Jon is born during the sack of king's landing? If we think about R+L, there is something weird.

If ned is a KL right after the sack and then goes to dragonstone and maybe somewhere else - to find out where lyaanna was - and then to the ToJ itself... shouldn't jon be already born by that time? So, or jon is a little youger, or lyanna didn't die in a child bed, or jon is not lyanna's son. Or i'm wrong, of course :cheers:

so... can anyone help me to figure it out?

I would not focus too much on dates. GRRM has himself said that there are timeline issues. I would assume, like SFDanny says, there is some leeway between the dates that make it possible for Ned to be all the places he is mentioned to be.

I think it is possible that Jon is not actually Ned's son, but that he is protecting someone by assuming the role of father.

You should take a look at the series of threads called "Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon" or "R+L=J". ;)

[Xenophon]

Does anyone know for certain what the name Winterfell is supposed to "mean" or evoke?

Fell is a fairly common geographic term in English, meaning some sort of hill. Here's the wikipedia page that explains its etymology. So, I guess you could say it means "Winter Mountain". But I don't think most English speakers really think about the meaning of the word.

[Xenophon]

Well, how does it sound to English speaking people? What does that name Winterfell evoke when you read it?

btw ive found the meaning "mountain" too, but i never got the feel that Winterfell is built on a mountain or even close to a mountain.

Obviously I can't speak for all English speakers, but I don't hear any particular meaning at all in the -fell ending. Since I know of several RL places called "(something)-fell", it just ends up sounding like a normal place name to me. If I think about it, I'd say that it probably has something to do with hills, but the association isn't as clear as say Casterly Rock = Somewhere on a big Rock, or the Eyrie = Somewhere high up.

I don't hear anything about winter "falling" or fur coats, if that helps at all with your argument.

[Xenophon]

I was talking about the impression of the whole complete name not just the "fell" part.

Apart from that im interested in whether George ever provided any explanation for it.

Oh, I see. I guess I just hear "Winter-place" (since I hear -fell as basically a generic place name). The main thing I get from the name is that it sounds like a cold place.

As for whether GRRM has ever explained it, I have no idea. Sorry. Maybe someone else knows?

[Whatever]

If I think about it, I'd say that it probably has something to do with hills, but the association isn't as clear as say Casterly Rock = Somewhere on a big Rock, or the Eyrie = Somewhere high up.

ok, new question. How is "erye" associated with "somewhere high up"? :)

[Xenophon]

ok, new question. How is "erye" associated with "somewhere high up"? :)

It's one of the meanings of the word. :)

[Whatever]

It's one of the meanings of the word. :)

ok, that's why :D

i didn't know it was a *real* word. "eyrie" reminded me of "eerie", but it doesn't fit

[corbon]

I see. Thanks. I guess "winter-place" could very well be all that George intended but im still curious to hear if anyone has any other info and how did various readers react to it in this sense.

The german translation "Sharpwinter" probably comes from this.

fell

3    /fɛl/

–adjective

1. fierce; cruel; dreadful; savage.

2. destructive; deadly: fell poison; fell disease.

—Idiom

3. at / in one fell swoop. swoop ( def. 5 ) .

Origin:

1250–1300; Middle English fel < Old French, nominative of felon wicked. See felon

In general I think, most such suffixes (and prefixes) in english tend to have mostly lost their meaning in peoples minds. I mean, the meaning might still be known, but it isn't an immediate association anymore because urban geography has changed so much in the last 1000 years or so.

XXXX-ton was once a town. Now it might be a province, a town, a suburb or just about anything - one doesn't usually immediately think of it as being a town.

Same for XXX-burgh.

Dun-XXX was once a hill-fort (IIRC). But now its just part of the name generally and doesn't bring thoughts of forts to mind.

To be honest, there are no XXXX-fells that I know of in my home country and I hadn't heard of the association with hill, so I immediately associated Winterfell with 'nasty winter' when asked.

[putte]

My google-fu is bringing me nothing, so can anyone point me towards what lies across the "sunset sea"? We seem to be going east a lot but never west...

[morbiczer]

There is nothing west of Westeros. At least nothing is mentioned in the books.

[broken one]

well, there is a "theory" of a happy happy land where is no death, pain etc (Feast for Crows, one of candidates for the king of the Ironborn)

[Masha]

I am starting to re-read SoIaF and was wondering why is everyone assuming that Dany is cursed to be barren. What Mirri Maz Duur said was "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before." By the time she said it, her revenge was complete, Drogo was brain dead and his child was dead, he and Dany lost control of their war host and most of his loyal lieutenants run and took everything with them. Mirri Maz Duur didn't feel to me like having too much beef with Dany other her being wife to Drogo (who's already been dealt with) and her being insensitive and silly girl child.

Frankly, it felt more like a prophecy than a curse to me

First of all, it doesn't imply that Dany is barren, it says "when", the point being that Dany hadn't actually been with a man since Drogo and most likely won't be for a while, so it would be a long time till she actually gets a chance to try to become pregnant.

Secondly, I thought I saw somewhere that GRRM mentioned that by the end of the series, Westeros seasons will become normal like winter, spring, summer, autumn seasons all in 1 year not like years for each season like it is now. Does anyone doubts that something tremendous must happen for such change to occur? Something a bit more apocalyptic than Wall melting down, I think. And won't that somehow result in great disturbances in the nature, to make "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves" actually occur? Or at least interpreted as such by witnesses and perhaps being an asteroid/meteor who'd be seen coming in the sky from west to east as "sun", plunging in the sea, thus creating tsunami - which results in sea actually receding and going dry for couple of minutes before the big wave, followed by tremendous shock wave making mountains shake. And by the time this might happen will be the last book and by that time Dany will in Westeros, on or fighting for the Iron Throne, most likely wed or with lover and could be pregnant by that time. Furthermore, Drogo return could simply be interpreted as having been reborn or her just naming her first born living child as "Drogo".