The Wise Man's Fear IV (SPOILERS)

[Angeleyes]

Skarpi also tells Erlus something along the lines of 'Tehlu hates you'.

This could be a simple insult, but I kind of got the impression that Skarpi is connected to deeper things and may actually know Tehlu. We know Tehlu's name still puts fear into the Chandrian. Given the number of seemingly immortal fairy tale figures who have shown up in the narrative (Felurian) I don't think it is too far of a stretch to assume Tehlu is out there. It is a much further stretch to assume Skarpi has met him, but given the way Skarpi can tell stories and has friends in the church...

Crackpot Theory!

We know Kvothe kills an angel in order to keep Denna sometime in the future. Assume Tehlu sees Denna do something evil for the Chandrian (Girl as pale as snow, etc.). We know the angels only judge actions they have seen occur. Kvothe says it is unfair and will not let Tehlu/whoever judge her action. In a fit of rashness he kills the angel by speaking it's name in rage? Cue current world problems because the angels are no longer judging the acts of men?

and Tehlu is Manet :lol:

/Crackpot

[AzureOwl]

3. The local priest is referred to in TNOW as Pater Leoden in TNOW, Abbe Grimes in WMF and later Abbe Leodin in WMF. Kvothe apparently likes him reasonably well. "Grimes is a decent sort for a priest", but later says: "And I don't get along with the local priest," Kvothe admitted". All very strange.

I don’t see a contradiction in this. Kvothe can both consider the priest to be a decent one and not get along with him. You don’t need to get along or even like a person to admit that they are good and competent at their jobs. I’ve personally known several people who were terrific at their jobs, highly competent and skilled, but were still total dicks.

In this case Kvothe is honest enough to admit that by the standards of the priesthood in his world, the local priest is a decent one. But he still doesn’t get along with him, probably because his opinion about the religion itself rather than any problems with the particular priest, whatever his name is.

[thistlepong]

Come off it, that's clearly deliberate.

Of course it is. It's also not telegraphed. Leoden/Leodin is certainly a typo.

I'll yeild to no one my love for these books. Such errata may illuminate rather than obfuscate.

Some random responses to random theories...

1. There's no evidence for a blood relationship between Bast and Kvothe. But who knows?
   
   My money says Bast is there to die and make us sad.

   
   

2. I don't think Tehlu's gonna die. That would be on everyone's lips.
   
   Andan, Ordal, Selitos? Maybe?

   
   

3. Cinder isn't dead. He isn't Bredon. He might be Denna's patron. But to what end?
   
4. Denna
   
   • Not Kvothe's heart's desire. That's a lute.
     
     
   • Normal woman
     
     
   • Courtesan with all that entails
     
     
   • Can do magic, maybe magics
     
     
   • Alive
     
     
   • Possibly related to Meluan
     
     
     The "Her lips were always red," statement is sticky.

     
     

[*]Ambrose

• Is probably the Penitent King, and not the dead one
  
  
• Is a powerful snot, not an evil mastermind
  
  
• Didn't start the feud. Kvothe did.
  
  
  Fela likes poetry.

  
  

[Gaston de Foix]

I don’t see a contradiction in this. Kvothe can both consider the priest to be a decent one and not get along with him. You don’t need to get along or even like a person to admit that they are good and competent at their jobs. I’ve personally known several people who were terrific at their jobs, highly competent and skilled, but were still total dicks.

In this case Kvothe is honest enough to admit that by the standards of the priesthood in his world, the local priest is a decent one. But he still doesn’t get along with him, probably because his opinion about the religion itself rather than any problems with the particular priest, whatever his name is.

It's a fair point.

Decency usually speaks to decency as a person though and not professional competence.

But basically, while you can contort yourself to find consistency in the story, there's no evidence or information to support the proposition that this priest is competent at his job but Kvothe's basic underlying problem with priests means they have philosophical differences that, personal respect aside, brings them to confrontation. On the contrary, Kvothe has shown himself to be perfectly willing to play a part, even with the fake Edema Ruh troupers and with the regulars at his pub, and hold out views he doesn't hold himself. So it doesn't make that much sense. And honestly, Doors of Stone would be a very boring novel if there was an exegesis devoted to explaining this minor conflict and all the other minor conflicts that creep in.

[Slick Mongoose]

Of course it is. It's also not telegraphed. Leoden/Leodin is certainly a typo.

I'll yeild to no one my love for these books. Such errata may illuminate rather than obfuscate.

Now i've no idea what you're talking abour. I thought you were making a list of possible authorial mistakes.

[thistlepong]

Now i've no idea what you're talking abour. I thought you were making a list of possible authorial mistakes.

It all seems so clear from here. Like Rhaegar's Son, I wonder if having such a list might lead to a deeper understanding. It's also fair to point them out, and much more useful to do so deliberately rather than grousing about them vaguely. Look back; I defended most of this stuff when it first came up, but it's still unexplained within the text. Do I seem like I'm being a jakis about it?

[Dremora]

My first post on these forums, I've read some of these threads but not all so these things might hve been said before.

A few things I noticed in TNotW after re-reading;

Near the start when the guy recognises him as Kvothe it says: The young man’s sentences grew jumbled as he continued, but his face remained earnest. “I knew it couldn’t be you. But I thought it was. Even though. But who else has your hair?” He shook his head, trying unsuccessfully to clear it. “I saw the place in Imre where you killed him. By the fountain. The cobblestones are all shathered.” He frowned and concentrated on the word. “Shattered. They say no one can mend them.”

I'm guessing its Ambros is the king he kills, as it happens in Imre and the guy says "him" rather than naming anyone he must be talking about the king and I don't see why the king would be in Imre unless its Ambros.

I also think Auri is the princess who he rescues, but not sure if she's a real princess or a Faye princess like Bast is a faye prince.

As for Denna I think her patron is Cinder, the name fits - Master Ash and it woulld fit with the work he's got her doing, trying to make them look like the good guys. I dont think Brendon is the patron but he's got to be something, maybe Amyr.

[Dremora]

[*]Denna

• Not Kvothe's heart's desire. That's a lute.
  

I don't think its a lute, in TNotW there are a few quotes to go against it;

Chronicler found himself thinking of a story he had heard. One of the many. The story told of how Kvothe had gone looking for his heart’s desire. He had to trick a demon to get it. But once it rested in his hand, he was forced to fight an angel to keep it. I believe it, Chronicler found himself thinking. Before it was just a story, but now I can believe it. This is the face of a man who has killed an angel.

and

“I’m good for hours yet.” Chronicler hurried to unpack his satchel without so much as a glance in Bast’s direction.

“Me too.” Bast turned to face Kvothe, his face bright and eager. “I want to know what you found under the University.”

Kvothe gave a shadow of a smile. “I supposed you would, Bast.” He came to the table and took a seat. “Underneath the University, I found what I had wanted most, yet it was not what I expected.” He motioned for Chronicler to pick up his pen. “As is often the case when you gain your heart’s desire.”

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I always thought that Brendon=Ash. Cinder being Denna's patron seems to really be stretching things. Afterall Cinder really doesn't know who Kvothe is or care about him. He's Kvothe's enemy, not the other way around. Cinder being Denna's evil patron seems to be too convenient. Honestly him leading the bandits was too IMHO, I just hope that his presence there was something more than, I need an evil leader...why not Cinder?

Brendon is probably something more than an old guy who likes to play chess. He's getting to know Kvothe, almost like he's training him for something. Personally I think Brendon is Amyr AND Denna's patron, and that he's using Denna to learn more about, and keep tabs on Kvothe.

[Slick Mongoose]

It all seems so clear from here. Like Rhaegar's Son, I wonder if having such a list might lead to a deeper understanding. It's also fair to point them out, and much more useful to do so deliberately rather than grousing about them vaguely. Look back; I defended most of this stuff when it first came up, but it's still unexplained within the text. Do I seem like I'm being a jakis about it?

No, I just don't understand why you think that Skarpi calling Kvothe Kvothe is an error. Because it really doesn't look like one to me.

[Dremora]

Also a couple ideas about the creation war (sorry if someone has already said these things);

I think namers are able to control things by saying their names and shapers are able to change names.

I think Heliax had his name changed by Iax who was the 1st and greatest shaper turning him evil.

Iax was then somehow locked away inside the lockless box (his name atleast was locked away), ending the creation war and Heliax is trying to free him so that he can get his name changed back allowing him to finally die.

If that is what the chandrian is trying to do then its not too hard to believe that they are trying to direct Kvothe towards eventually opening it, all the random meetings with Denna could be arranged by her patron who could be a chandrian.

Maybe Kvothe did open the box, releasing Iax which has led him to shape new demons (the spider things and the one who attacked the inn).

[Bl1ndProphet]

So when Kvothe speaks about finding his heart's desire Underneath the University, do you read it as finding access to the archives (and his disappointment with not learning much inside), or do you think he's alluding to something that hasn't been revealed yet?

[kuenjato]

Brief reflection/rant of WMF...

I'm reminded of a phrase Rothfuss used in TNotW, where Kvothe muses on his conversation with Denna: "I spoke too much. I said too little." (paraphrased) Good god was this book bloated. It's interesting to note that the first of the book's two action sequences occurs roughly 200,000 words in (I don't count the pratfalls with Ambrose much in the way of 'action').

I didn't mind the first half, actually. I'd re-read TNotW beforehand, and the University stuff flowed in fairly well. The Maer section introduced a fair amount of tension. Then we get to the bandit "chase," with its wanderings and woodlore. The book, though still consistant in prose and pacing, grew more and more uninvolving. I was still along for the ride... until the dual groaners of the FaeSex and Kvothe's romp with the quasi-ninja/wuxa free-love commune. All of which continually reminded me of a college kid going on a Jackie Chan/internet porn marathon and then thinking how cool it would be to include elements of this in his fantasy epic project. Just awful, awful, all of it. Perhaps that was the point--if Kvothe really is in his early twenties, it makes sense for him to dwell endlessly on losing his virginity and his various conquests thereafter. But good god was it boring and unconvincing.

Note that I was never a big fan of the series. I found the first book entertaining but problematic, particularly in the world-building, which despite the minutia never came off as convincing for me. WMF, for the first half, managed to absolve these qualms... and the second half brought them all back and then some.

Obviously I'm in the minority here, but I really doubt this book will hold up for posterity. So very little actually happens for the amount of words devoted to describe it all.

[Dremora]

So when Kvothe speaks about finding his heart's desire Underneath the University, do you read it as finding access to the archives (and his disappointment with not learning much inside), or do you think he's alluding to something that hasn't been revealed yet?

Not sure, the way Bast was interested in it and Kvothe saying he thought Bast would be interested in that bit maked me think that it might be something else.

[Dremora]

I always thought that Brendon=Ash. Cinder being Denna's patron seems to really be stretching things. Afterall Cinder really doesn't know who Kvothe is or care about him. He's Kvothe's enemy, not the other way around. Cinder being Denna's evil patron seems to be too convenient. Honestly him leading the bandits was too IMHO, I just hope that his presence there was something more than, I need an evil leader...why not Cinder?

Brendon is probably something more than an old guy who likes to play chess. He's getting to know Kvothe, almost like he's training him for something. Personally I think Brendon is Amyr AND Denna's patron, and that he's using Denna to learn more about, and keep tabs on Kvothe.

Didnt the C'thea tree say he'd met Cinder before? If so he might have said about Kvothe and since we don't really know the chandrians intentions maybe they wat to use him for something.

[thistlepong]

I don't think its a lute, in TNotW there are a few quotes to go against it;

Chronicler found himself thinking of a story he had heard. One of the many. The story told of how Kvothe had gone looking for his heart’s desire. He had to trick a demon to get it. But once it rested in his hand, he was forced to fight an angel to keep it. I believe it, Chronicler found himself thinking. Before it was just a story, but now I can believe it. This is the face of a man who has killed an angel.

That actually kind of supports it being a lute.

“Me too.” Bast turned to face Kvothe, his face bright and eager. “I want to know what you found under the University.”

Kvothe gave a shadow of a smile. “I supposed you would, Bast.” He came to the table and took a seat. “Underneath the University, I found what I had wanted most, yet it was not what I expected.” He motioned for Chronicler to pick up his pen. “As is often the case when you gain your heart’s desire.”

Access to the Archives is his heart's desire? He'll have to trick Demon Devi to get it. And kill Auri (Ordal - Golden hair tied in a ribbon) to keep it. That would actually be awesome.

[Dremora]

Maybe, I'm just hoping its something better than a lute :P

He didn't trick Devi to get into the archives and I think Auri will be the sleeping princess so I don't think he'll be killing her.

All just guesses though, have to wait to find out :(

[Merihathor]

I don't think its a lute, in TNotW there are a few quotes to go against it;

Chronicler found himself thinking of a story he had heard. One of the many. The story told of how Kvothe had gone looking for his heart’s desire. He had to trick a demon to get it. But once it rested in his hand, he was forced to fight an angel to keep it. I believe it, Chronicler found himself thinking. Before it was just a story, but now I can believe it. This is the face of a man who has killed an angel.

and

“I’m good for hours yet.” Chronicler hurried to unpack his satchel without so much as a glance in Bast’s direction.

“Me too.” Bast turned to face Kvothe, his face bright and eager. “I want to know what you found under the University.”

Kvothe gave a shadow of a smile. “I supposed you would, Bast.” He came to the table and took a seat. “Underneath the University, I found what I had wanted most, yet it was not what I expected.” He motioned for Chronicler to pick up his pen. “As is often the case when you gain your heart’s desire.”

In my opinion, the "it" can be anything, whether a lute (I don't think it's a lute; yes, this is a major part of him, but I'd say music and being able to make music is even more so and the lute is his preferred tool), or the "it" could even be the answers to his questions about the Chandrian/Amyr, held within a book or a key that opens a door to someone that can answer him satisfactorily (or so he had hoped--to find a concrete answer, but sounds like he didn't get this):

So when Kvothe speaks about finding his heart's desire Underneath the University, do you read it as finding access to the archives (and his disappointment with not learning much inside), or do you think he's alluding to something that hasn't been revealed yet?

My impression is that his heart's desire is to find clear information about the Chandrian/Amyr, and then come to terms with the death of his parents--to find closure and knowledge, of sorts. However, he seems to be saying that the answers were not what he expected from what he had been able to piece together, and it took the heart out of him.

[polishgenius]

I'm sure this has been brought up at some point in the past threads, but what are the chances of Auri being a Chandrian? After all, she lives in what seems to be one of the cities. And one of them lives in 'nothing but decay', which could mean that.

I mean I think it's unlikely, but is it impossible? Do we know how long she's been there? After all she's quite young or at least young-looking, but she's been there long enough for Elodin to not know her name, and for there to be general unconcern among the staff that one of there students/patients is missing (though that could be narrative convenience).

As for Kvothe's heart's desire: does the Four Plate Door count as 'beneath the university'?

[Silversun]

I finally finished WMF so i feel safe joining this thread now.

I have a couple of questions, if they've been asked and answered or discussed a nudge in the right direction would be appreciated.

First - What do you think of Kvothe? One of the most common complaints about characters in the aSoIaF forums is that everything falls to neatly into place for certain characters, specifically Jon and Dany. Surely this applies way more to Kvothe than either of them. In a way it seems that Rothfuss has written a character that every teenager and most adults wish they could be rather than a realistic one. I know if I was as smart as Stephen Hawking, could play guitar like Clapton, fight like Jet Li and fuck like Cassanova my life would be pretty awesome! But thats just wishfull thinking, not realistic.

Second - Does anyone else think that Denna is Netalia Lackless?