Boarders Writing a Novel - Thread V

[Zoë Sumra]

And I have hit that stage where I am looking at my work and thinking "really?"

Simply put, it is boring and some chapters have no exposition, others are primarily exposition. Dialogue is too concentrated, which would normally be fine, but because I am reading Erikson, I dont want that "no nonsense" type of chat, because the audience is not yet invested.

IMO this is what second drafts are for - balancing out things like exposition, plot pace, dialogue to non-dialogue balance and so on. For a first draft, forget all of that and just get through the story. (At the moment you're writing for an audience of one: yourself. As you're feeling your way through it, lots of dialogue even helps. (I may have mentioned this here before, but I heard of one detective author who always writes a chapter near to the end where the detective goes for a long walk and puzzles out the case. In the final book, this chapter is deleted, but it's useful for the author at the time. I have my own variant where if I'm not sure what's going to happen next, the characters tend to sit down and discuss what to do. None of that makes it into even a second draft, but it's useful when it's just me looking at it.)

If it were not for the fact that I can speak Farsi, I would be fine with using standard (for fantasy) english vocabulary, but there is an extra burden I have put upon myself. Titles are awkward too - Lord, King, General, etc are all out the window, and I find myself making up words as their replacement.

For the titles, is there anything stopping you just using the relevant Farsi words? For the rest... well, good luck. Is literal translation capable of getting you anywhere or does it just not work at all?

I have begun to write a "prologue" for one of my characters inspired by some exposition on his childhood that I wrote in one of the earlier chapters (his life story, part 1... sigh). And it is amazing - publisher worthy even (not trying to brag, but I am damn proud of it). Unfortunately, the main story is just shit and I cannot for the life of me think of how to fix it. Gonna keep writing and see how I go.

Keep prologues like this for short stories (you could even submit just the prologue to a magazine?). At 15K in, you can't say one way or the other that the main story is shit - just keep on with it.

That ever happen to anyone else? Have minor characters that you end up liking/caring about a lot more than your main ones?

From time to time - those are the minor characters who turn into major ones when I least expect them to.

[Ebenstone]

The only reason I say "no" is that I don't like alien invasion stories - nine times out of ten they turn into anti-immigration polemics, so I avoid the subgenre as much as I possibly can, even when, as here, the aliens aren't "evil" per se. The rest - your whole world setup, the no-evil-character thing - very interesting, and fun.

My YA scifi I'm planning is a alien invasion plot but not a "Independence Day"/Battle:LA thing....think more "Attack the Block" (which it was partially inspired by...just by clips I've seen) combined with some sappy boy crushing on girl plot.

Fionwe1987, first, hello...as for finding inspiration, don't you know writers stories come from Poughkeepsie, NY? I went to a wedding there once and couldn't find the building where they were. Go back to what moved you before: read, watch movies, read comics, listen to music...lots of inspiration there. And from what I can gather from reading you entry...read history. Go back and study religious wars, invasions, etc. And sometimes, you just have to write. That's always gotten me over being stuck...which reminds me, I have to get Sisters done.

[Venardhi]

That ever happen to anyone else? Have minor characters that you end up liking/caring about a lot more than your main ones?

I had a minor antagonist (the original main antagonist's son) turn into a main character the moment I bothered to think about his motivations for more than a second. It upset everything horribly, though I imagine will make it all much better in the long run.

[Bronn is God]

Thanks for the response Eloisa :thumbsup:

IMO this is what second drafts are for - balancing out things like exposition, plot pace, dialogue to non-dialogue balance and so on. For a first draft, forget all of that and just get through the story. (At the moment you're writing for an audience of one: yourself. As you're feeling your way through it, lots of dialogue even helps.

My own mantra is "keep writing" but it hurts so much to look back on the work already done, especially when I need to clarify something to put into my notes. It is damn hard to read.

I am sure everyone is a harsh critic of themselves and I am no different. If I was reading my own work, the first thoughts in my head would be "how old was the child who wrote this book?" Very frustrating. Also there are things like imagery, in which I am fine with leaving out, but the reader in me wants some sort of description. A constant battle between the rider in me and the reader in me ensues, and I tend to submit to the will of the reader.

For the titles, is there anything stopping you just using the relevant Farsi words? For the rest... well, good luck. Is literal translation capable of getting you anywhere or does it just not work at all?

Let us take the "Chamber pot" as an example. There is word to describe such an object, but translating it back into english will make it another word completely. So the question is do I leave it as chamber pot for the benefit of the audience, translate back and forth, or start using actual words or even making up words to describe said thing?

It is a tough decision to make, but for the most part, a horse is a horse, a sword is a sword and a cup is a cup. It is just some key words that I am stuck on.

Keep prologues like this for short stories (you could even submit just the prologue to a magazine?). At 15K in, you can't say one way or the other that the main story is shit - just keep on with it.

Will do. It is not the story itself, but the writing and style. It is dodgy at best.

Thanks again for reading through my little rant, I owe you one :cheers:

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I figured out a problem that was bugging me in book 2 of my Urban Fantasy series yesterday, so I've been doing a happy dance. Also there's apparently a name for the type of novella I'm working on, it's called Dieselpunk. I can't keep track of all the sub-genres any more...

[ZombieWife]

Thanks for the response Eloisa :thumbsup:

My own mantra is "keep writing" but it hurts so much to look back on the work already done, especially when I need to clarify something to put into my notes. It is damn hard to read.

On the clarification and notes, maybe creating a "loose ends" file will work for you? I created one that includes characters I've somehow dropped (secondary/minor) and information that I need to thread into earlier chapters. Every time I find a "hole" on a re-read, I add it to my file so that I can go back during revision and assess things.

Some of what I've written is absolutely atrocious, but the idea is there, the spirit is there. Sometimes, I rewrite the whole chapter. Other times, the skeleton frame works and I do some heavy revising to make it "prettier."

My biggest worry is that one of my final, big arcs is not going to jive and I'll have to rework a metric buttload of stuff. But, all I can do is keep pushing forward now. :)

[Jojen]

And, I love the short story form. But, genre short stories are (in my opinion) more difficult to write. The literary piece allows you to zoom in on a character moment with little or no world-building or explanation. Genre, it seems, you must move quickly and efficiently in the short story form. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. I've been reading a buttload of stories. Now that Fantasy & Sci/Fi magazine is giving out free goodies on Kindle, I'll be in hog heaven.

Writing a book (Mt. Everest if you will) does not at all intimidate me and I'm really enjoying the "climb" as it were. But, I also think that getting a short piece published sounds like a grand idea. And honestly? It would tickle me pink. :)

When I first decided to be a "serious" writer, I wanted to write big, sweeping epics. After a reality check, I decided to set my sights a bit lower. And lower. And lower. Eventually all I wrote were poems, which really helped me focus on telling a story in as few words as possible. From there I worked up to flash-fiction, and then to short stories.

I remained in short-story mode for several years, got a few things published (all are genre stories--a western, a couple sci-fi/fantasy), until I finally felt brave enough to tackle something larger. I wrote a couple novelettes that had potential to become novel-length genre stories. I'm still working on expanding them. More recently, I've tried to write an actual novel from the start. I've started two of them, but it's been much harder than I anticipated (and I anticipated it being really, really hard).

I like the challenge of writing in a form I'm not familiar with, but I definitely prefer the short-story format. It's the one I feel most comfortable writing, but I can't help but feel a little small-time for not being a Novelist. Then again, John Updike (one of my favorite non-genre authors), was one of the best short-story writers ever, and that's how he really became known, so....

[ZombieWife]

When I first decided to be a "serious" writer, I wanted to write big, sweeping epics. After a reality check, I decided to set my sights a bit lower. And lower. And lower. Eventually all I wrote were poems, which really helped me focus on telling a story in as few words as possible. From there I worked up to flash-fiction, and then to short stories.

I remained in short-story mode for several years, got a few things published (all are genre stories--a western, a couple sci-fi/fantasy), until I finally felt brave enough to tackle something larger. I wrote a couple novelettes that had potential to become novel-length genre stories. I'm still working on expanding them. More recently, I've tried to write an actual novel from the start. I've started two of them, but it's been much harder than I anticipated (and I anticipated it being really, really hard).

I like the challenge of writing in a form I'm not familiar with, but I definitely prefer the short-story format. It's the one I feel most comfortable writing, but I can't help but feel a little small-time for not being a Novelist. Then again, John Updike (one of my favorite non-genre authors), was one of the best short-story writers ever, and that's how he really became known, so....

I love Updike. The story I remember the most from him was A&P. I remember reading Rabbit Run (novel) and the teacher telling me how people lost their collective minds because it was told in the first person present and there was much pooping of the pants in the literary community because he “wasn’t supposed to do that.”

I think Updike is a great reminder that no matter how much people tell us we can’t do something a certain way (i.e. writing in 1st person present, or 2nd person or 1st person plural, or whatever you darn well please), someone will inevitably come along and prove that they are small-minded little jerkwards who have a beef with things that they either don’t understand or that they cannot appreciate.

I think it’s awesome that you have gotten a few genre stories published. As someone who has written her butt off in literary short stories (and been told my professors that genre is “stupid, dumbed-down and a waste of time”) I really do think that the genre short story is by far more difficult to master. The fact that you have is a feat unto itself. And, when you’re ready to submit your novel, you can point to those stories as proof that you’re not just farting around with a “neat idea” and that you’re a professional writer.

So, hats off to you. :D

[Jojen]

So, hats off to you. :D

Why, thank you! It's been funny to me what I can get published and what gets rejected. Some of what I consider to be my best stuff (one of which is what I like to think of as "literary sci-fi") I can't seem to find a market for, which is frustrating but then I just remember that it's just one editor's opinion, and they're not the be-all-and-end-all when it comes to publishing. We're fortunate to live in an age where there's really a market for every writer, if they are patient and diligent enough to find them.

What kinds of stories do you tend to write? You mentioned that the feedback you're getting is "warm." Is it actually useful, or is it more of the "it's not right for us" variety?

p.s. I didn't fully appreciate Updike until a few years ago after picking up a the collection of his early New Yorker stories and was just blown away. He made it look so easy that it would be just as easy to hate him for it, but strangely, I don't. I feel the same way about Steinbeck. Both really inspire me.

[Zoë Sumra]

*is still in awe of Zombiewife and Jojen for getting short stories published*

It is a tough decision to make, but for the most part, a horse is a horse, a sword is a sword and a cup is a cup. It is just some key words that I am stuck on.

IMO, for the key untranslatable words, it seems best to either use the Farsi word straight (and define it in text, just don't translate it), or take its direct-and-inaccurate translation as the basis to make up your own word. Could you share any examples?

I've redrafted the chapter I was amending and am now pondering how to tackle its immediate follow-up. Most issues are to do with how much I should make which character see, but am also pondering whether to have two unsuited-to-each-other characters have sex largely in order to cause many problems in a putative later book - I mean, it'd convey some character development in this book, but...

[ZombieWife]

Why, thank you! It's been funny to me what I can get published and what gets rejected. Some of what I consider to be my best stuff (one of which is what I like to think of as "literary sci-fi") I can't seem to find a market for, which is frustrating but then I just remember that it's just one editor's opinion, and they're not the be-all-and-end-all when it comes to publishing. We're fortunate to live in an age where there's really a market for every writer, if they are patient and diligent enough to find them.

What kinds of stories do you tend to write? You mentioned that the feedback you're getting is "warm." Is it actually useful, or is it more of the "it's not right for us" variety?

p.s. I didn't fully appreciate Updike until a few years ago after picking up a the collection of his early New Yorker stories and was just blown away. He made it look so easy that it would be just as easy to hate him for it, but strangely, I don't. I feel the same way about Steinbeck. Both really inspire me.

The literary stories are all over the place from a character and her son dealing with death to a man who grows pot for his cancer-stricken mother. Character above all else interests me.

As for the rejections, most have been, "this just isn't for us, but send something else if you have it." And, unfortunately, in the past, I didn't HAVE anything else to send. If I did, I could have zoomed it over and, well, my name might still be fresh in their minds. I had one editor suggest another magazine for me to try. The editor of Asimov (Sheila, agh, cannot remember last name) gave a nice little hand-written note with some words of encouragement. I think that meant more to me than any short story I had accepted so far.

So, I feel like I'm close. And I agree. I am baffled at what magazines have accepted for me. The ones that I think are the best are the ones that have gotten the most rejection. A few that I kind of felt "meh" about were nabbed right up. So, yeah, who knows with that. :) I once had a friend tell me that she just makes sure her stories are boring with no real plot and she can get something accepted (for lit mags).

:stunned:

[Jojen]

I once had a friend tell me that she just makes sure her stories are boring with no real plot and she can get something accepted (for lit mags).

:stunned:

Kind of like how Hollywood operates.

[Jojen]

Let us take the "Chamber pot" as an example. There is word to describe such an object, but translating it back into english will make it another word completely. So the question is do I leave it as chamber pot for the benefit of the audience, translate back and forth, or start using actual words or even making up words to describe said thing?

I agree with Eloisa. I'd use the Farsi words and define them in the text. Just don't be obvious about it, as if you're doing it only for the reader's benefit.

[Starkess]

Okay, starting tomorrow, 6 PM is my writing hour. 6-7 every night, shutting myself in my office with my laptop. With my internet turned off. I WILL find a way to start writing again. :whip:

[ZombieWife]

Okay. I'm sure this topic has been discussed before in threads such as this (and other ones), but what is the word count that some of you are aiming for?

My book will be the first in a series of three. It's fantasy, but it's not exactly SUPER EPIC fantasy. It's kind of a precursor to the "big mama" epic that will be 6 books in length and be closer to 700 pages in novel format. But, I didn't want to start with the big series first. I wanted to ease readers into the world with a less world-breaking/huge impact story, but one that is vital to the 2nd (big) series nonetheless. As a matter of fact, it will set things up so nicely for the 2nd series, though the focus will shift dramatically and 10 years will have passed.

It seems that many of the fantasy books I pick up are around 700 pages. I'm guessing that's around 175k, maybe 200k (if you are assuming approx. 250 words per page).

As of now, I'm shooting for a little over 100k in my first draft.

I was expecting around 120-125k after my revisions.

The thing is, it will probably be closer to 110-120k on the first draft and 140-145k on revision.

For a first fantasy novel that isn't exactly your average epic journey here, where would you all shoot in terms of word count? Part of me thinks that a smaller book is a better choice for a first-time fantasy writer. Another part of me isn't so sure.

Thoughts? What word count are you aiming for yourselves?

[Starkess]

I tend to write on the short side. I always aim for about 80k, but usually end up around 70k. It's frustrating--I don't want to pad out my novels with useless words, but I do want to create a sufficiently submersive experience for the reader. I think for me my problem is with plotting. Long story short, I suck at it. So my novels tend to have one major plot, one subplot, and maybe a romantic subplot thrown in too. My goal for my next work is to establish at least THREE plotlines...although I so far only have a skeleton of one. Plotting is probably my biggest weakness.

Anyway, I think anything 80-100k is probably okay for genre fiction, which I believe has a bit more leniency for long novels. And of course for established authors and epic sagas, it quickly gets much much longer, which is why I think you've got a good idea starting out small. If it's successful, you garner readers invested in the world, a publisher invested in you, and much more leeway to truly expand your epic.

[Zoë Sumra]

Forget the books you read, and like to read. Nowadays for a first novel, even in SFF, agents won't look at more than 100K-125K. Hence my current problems with trying to shore up Rough Diamond - all its problems stem from it being half a book, cut down from a completed novel that at 200K was too long to get published.

Agents also don't like first books in series as unsolicited manuscripts, which pretty much wipes me out for this volume as it won't stand alone, but there's not much I can do about it. If I can knock off the fifteen-years-earlier caper-story prequel, that might be a better bet, but I want to get this one to a finished state and at least try to shop it.

[ZombieWife]

Forget the books you read, and like to read. Nowadays for a first novel, even in SFF, agents won't look at more than 100K-125K. Hence my current problems with trying to shore up Rough Diamond - all its problems stem from it being half a book, cut down from a completed novel that at 200K was too long to get published.

Agents also don't like first books in series as unsolicited manuscripts, which pretty much wipes me out for this volume as it won't stand alone, but there's not much I can do about it. If I can knock off the fifteen-years-earlier caper-story prequel, that might be a better bet, but I want to get this one to a finished state and at least try to shop it.

I guess I'm confused. The agents I've spoken with at conventions and conferences have said that in genre they are very interested in a book series, but that if you come to them with three completed books, they are a bit nervous. One told me that he prefers the first book finished and the next two outlined so that once the heavy editing on the first book is complete, they can address the issues in the outline before the author has "written in too far." (Just one of his reasons, another being that if you have a bunch of books that you've written and haven't published any, it might show that you're being turned down a lot). But, who knows.

I would think if a writer sent the first book in a series to an agent and did not mention that the book had to be split or that there was a second book nearly finished (in the case of a book being halved), that none would know the better?

Maybe I'm misreading the comment! Apologies. It's Monday.

It's hard to hear that 200k is too big. It seems like just the exact right number of words to me, but again, for a first time novel the rules seem drastically changed.

[Zoë Sumra]

I guess I'm confused. The agents I've spoken with at conventions and conferences have said that in genre they are very interested in a book series, but that if you come to them with three completed books, they are a bit nervous. One told me that he prefers the first book finished and the next two outlined so that once the heavy editing on the first book is complete, they can address the issues in the outline before the author has "written in too far." (Just one of his reasons, another being that if you have a bunch of books that you've written and haven't published any, it might show that you're being turned down a lot). But, who knows.

I would think if a writer sent the first book in a series to an agent and did not mention that the book had to be split or that there was a second book nearly finished (in the case of a book being halved), that none would know the better?

Maybe I'm misreading the comment! Apologies. It's Monday.

No, you're not misreading the comment: you're making me feel better about things. If you could say - if you're free to say - where you got the comment that genre series are OK, I'd be even happier, because everything I've read has been advice not to do this, contrary to the experience of people like Joe Abercrombie who dived right in with a series.

RD - and I hope you'll swing by the other board and check! :P - is a complete book, but not everything ends at the end of the book. Certain plot threads lack resolution - intended to be picked up later - and not all the plot threads tie into each other (in the most notable case because they started meshing from the second half of the original book, which is now book 2). I cannot turn it into a standalone without tying up far more than I want to tie up, which is more than I'm capable of doing in the word count and would require cutting plot lines, or

letting the villain win. Which he does, at this stage, sort of, or doesn't lose, which is as good as he's expecting.

As it's half a book I've drafted the second half/book already. The third is an outline with a few scenes I drafted when I was dry on other things and needed something to keep me going: IMO they're some of the best things I've ever written. But there's no way to "disguise" RD as a standalone after the agent's read it. Probably not after the agent's read the synopsis, tbh.

It's hard to hear that 200k is too big. It seems like just the exact right number of words to me, but again, for a first time novel the rules seem drastically changed.

It's been slipping down for the past decade. If only I'd finished RD ten years ago like I intended... but I wasn't as good ten years ago, and it wasn't publishable, despite some overly gushing feedback.

[Ebenstone]

Okay. I'm sure this topic has been discussed before in threads such as this (and other ones), but what is the word count that some of you are aiming for?

My book will be the first in a series of three. It's fantasy, but it's not exactly SUPER EPIC fantasy. It's kind of a precursor to the "big mama" epic that will be 6 books in length and be closer to 700 pages in novel format. But, I didn't want to start with the big series first. I wanted to ease readers into the world with a less world-breaking/huge impact story, but one that is vital to the 2nd (big) series nonetheless. As a matter of fact, it will set things up so nicely for the 2nd series, though the focus will shift dramatically and 10 years will have passed.

It seems that many of the fantasy books I pick up are around 700 pages. I'm guessing that's around 175k, maybe 200k (if you are assuming approx. 250 words per page).

As of now, I'm shooting for a little over 100k in my first draft.

I was expecting around 120-125k after my revisions.

The thing is, it will probably be closer to 110-120k on the first draft and 140-145k on revision.

For a first fantasy novel that isn't exactly your average epic journey here, where would you all shoot in terms of word count? Part of me thinks that a smaller book is a better choice for a first-time fantasy writer. Another part of me isn't so sure.

Thoughts? What word count are you aiming for yourselves?

Word counts are a tricky subject. There's no concrete answer. For every argument you hear about a 200k plus being taboo, you see a writer like Patrick Rothfuss having massive success. Generally speaking, anything over that number is untouchable BUT if the writing is really, really good, an agent (or editor) might look past that. I have a trunk novel that was somewhere about 180k. It was horrible, so it wasn't going to sell anyway.

Most of my recent writing has been geared towards YA, so my word counts aren't as high as some are. Winter's Discord, when first shopped 3 years ago, was sent out at 99k, high for a YA book. In it's various drafts it meandered from 93k-99k. When I got my first agent, he requested cuts focusing on the action of the story. I bled my way through 16k in cuts,bringing it down to 83k, which is closer to a YA fantasy word count. When he left the agency to go to his editorial position, the book stayed at 83k when I shopped it a year ago.

The most recent and most serious nibble I received on the MS actually asked me to treat the book as a "traditional" fantasy and I did so, adding almost 50k to the MS. I had an idea to add another 20k in what I called "interludes" (an idea I still like)that I scrapped because I still thought my tone was still YA and that was an audience we could "crossunder" to (a term coined by author Blake Charlton...I can link if you want to read his blog post, which is really one of the most brilliant discussions about fantasy and audience I've read) a YA audience.

Colleen Lindsay, a former literary agent now working for a publisher, posted one of the most comprehensive word count descriptions out there. I'd highly recommend a look, it's worth it.

Sisters of Khoda, my present project, is going to come in somewhere between 84-87k, depending on how close I follow my outline. My next project, the YA scifi, I have planned out to fall between 75-85k. After that, I want to sink into a very big standalone epic fantasy that I'm guessing will be at least 120k.

As for the series question...you need to make your first book as stand alone as possible, but tell them it is part of a series. I don't mention it in the query, let the discussion reveal that later. To be fair, on the cover sheet of Winter's Discord I did put a line that says, "Book 1 of The Seasons of Destiny."