Unsatisfying nature of ASOIAF vengeance

[Baleraxar]

His father to refused to recognize him, because Tyrion isn't his son, and Tywin knows it. But he can't announce it to the world, because that would give him horns, and he can't bear being laughed at.

Preposterous. If Tywin genuinely believed Tyrion wasn't his, he would have had him killed years ago. he would have done it quietly and carefully and no one would even have known it was him, Just like Randall Tarly threatened to do to Sam.

I assume you're going for the old "Aerys raped Joanna" theory here? If so, then Tywin would not have continued to serve Aerys for seven years afterward. Also Cersei's recollections make it hard for the timing to work. It just doesn't make sense, but it comes closer if you suppose Tywin had no idea.

[Fossoway]

Personally, I think Tywin's death was one of the most satisfying in the series, and obviously designed for reader catharsis. I guess it's not satisfying if you only care about the Starks, but this isn't "A Song of How the Starks Were Awesome;" they have to share glory with the other characters, and Tyrion is probably the most popular character in the series (as well as GRRM's favorite). Can you really deny that Tyrion deserved his vengeance, though? Yes, Tywin fought Robb, but it was all just politics. From his perspective Robb was a traitor and he did what he had to do, nothing personal. With Tyrion everything was personal.

As for Jaime, do you really think people are incapable of hypocrisy and unwillingness to face up to their own actions? Seems realistic to me. Besides, as ruthless as it was, Jaime acted to protect his own children, 2/3 of whom are completely innocent. Do you really think Tommen and Myrella deserve to die? Jaime was in a difficult situation. Admittedly one he put himself in, but no one claimed he was perfect.

My view of Jaime's actions is that he was protecting himself and Cersei, not his children. The new early scene in the GoT HBO series (in Kings Landing) makes that abundantly clear -- Jaime makes the statement that Robert would have their heads on spikes if he knew of their incest.

I, for one, think that GRRM is royally shitting on Jaime -- despite all his skills, privileges and riches, he gets defeated in battle by Robb Stark and captured; he loses his prized sword hand and much of his reputation; he is shamed by the honor, bravery and chivalry he recognizes in someone who he detests because of her looks and sex (Brienne); he finds out (from Tyrion) that his sister is a manipulative woman who uses sex as a weapon and a bribe; the consequence of allowing his brother to escape the headsman is that Tyrion goes and kills his (admired, dominating) father before grabbing a ship out of Kings Landing; and Cersei, despite the deaths of Tywin and Robert, finds power more attractive and necessary than being with her maimed brother. In AffC, Jaime is disgusted with himself, his family, and what he has done with his life to date.

The reasons that many readers now are rooting for Jaime is that Jaime's misfortunes and disgust with himself start to translate into living as a better man. Even though his life had previously been ruled by arrogance, lust for his sister, and a tendency to act recklessly and impulsively without thinking through consequences, he starts taking full responsibility (for the first time) for his role as the protector of the kind and as Kingsguard Lord Commander, trying to live up to his promises (at least to Catelyn regarding not taking up arms against Starks or Tullys, and freeing her daughters), and even acting more like a father (to Tommen).

Redemption is a powerful and appealing tale in most stories (the classic example is St. Paul and his actions after his awakening on the road to Damascus) -- GRRM is testing us by taking a thoroughly unlikeable and arrogant villain, and then trying to redeem him.

That said, there is surely more shit coming for Jaime. Cersei's prophecy, if true, will also hit Jaime hard -- at the end of the books, I expect him to be alone, with his father, sister, and children gone, and his proud family in ruins, forced to humble himself before people who detest him (I'm including Tyrion in that group). You want vengance? Death is the most kind option, in my view.

[Fossoway]

His father to refused to recognize him, because Tyrion isn't his son, and Tywin knows it. But he can't announce it to the world, because that would give him horns, and he can't bear being laughed at.

Your last statement is why Tywin's death was so satisfying -- he died in circumstances that most of us would find shaming and worthy of mocking. Slain by his dwarf son with a crossbolt to the crotch, sitting on the privy with his pants down. An undignified end for a man who guarded his dignity ruthlessly.

[iamthedave]

So is it realistic for someone who kills a child for selfish reasons to suddenly become an honourable and virtuous man? I'm just asking, seeing as Martin's key virtue is his incredibly realistic character portrayals, by all accounts. So just how realistic is it for someone to lose no sleep over throwing a child off a building, and then to suddenly disapprove of the fact that Sybelle Westerling sold out the Starks at the Red Wedding? How do you reconcile the two different portrayals of the man?

I call that unrealistic in the extreme.

So you're saying people never change? I don't need to reconcile the portrayals, it's right there in the text. Chapters and chapters of it showing his transformation. It starts pretty much from the moment he realizes he could kill Brienne with the oar in the boat but instead helps her on board, not exactly knowing why.

And you seem to have missed what I said: Martin HAS redeemed him, because he is a beloved character.

If he hadn't, he would be hated by the readership as one of the series' blackest villains. You can talk about how Martin did it, but there's no question he has.

[theLaughingTree]

The uniquely horrible nature of the injustices that are committed against key protagonists in this series is surely designed, at least in part, to generate a craving on the part of the reader for equally satisfying vengeance. REVENGE is a driving force for many of us reading the books, I would think. It certainly is for me.

However, given this emotional need, does anyone else feel robbed by the indirect way in which some of the key transgressors receive their come uppance?

It is all very dramatic and thematic for Tywin to be killed by his own son (supposedly), and for him to rot prematurely while beig mourned, and for various people from Dorne to the Riverlands to say that he is surely howling in hell now, but it leaves this massive need unfulfilled to have seen a STARK overcome him, and have him dying with the knowledge that he was defeated by kin of the Young Wolf, or by the heir to Winterfell or by the little sister come assassin who penetrated all his defenses and let him KNOW what vengeance was being delivered for prior to his death

Its realism. In real life and in history the bad guys are not always caught by the good guys and sent to prison/execution. Sometimes the bad guys profit and live like Kings. Other times some of the "good guys" are almost as corrupt and wicked as the bad guys (LAPD Rampart division for example). Finally very often in history just who is a hero and who is a villain in History depends entirely on your point of view (Talleyrand for instance).

As much as we all might crave a storybook ending to everything with the Starks triumphing over the Lannisters personally, GRRM made it very clear (via Sansa) that life in Westeros like real world history does not always work the way happy ending stories would have us hope for. The concept of vengeance in real life is a nebulous concept. Some cases are clear cut and others are riled with complexity and based on individual perspectives. So IMO, GRRM has done a good job in reflecting how the real world has worked historically and how events do not always adhere to a Joseph Campbell script on heroes and villains.

[inkasrain]

As has been said, "vengeance," such as it is, comes about in twisted and complicated ways in this series. It's very rarely satisfying in the straight-out ways we might have predicted as readers, but I don't think it's any less delicious for all that. For example, Jaime losing his sword hand to Vargo Hoat is such staggeringly perfect karmic justice that it makes me smile every time I think about it. (And I'm a Jaime fan.)

I also agree with Baleraxar and Brother Wolf that Tywin's death was fantastically satisfying-- especially so, as Tyrion's trial takes every satisfying "victory" moment that Tyrion experiences in Clash of Kings and brings it around to bite him in the ass a dozen times over. There's still an element of cold-comfort about it (Robb and Cat are dead, the Starks down for the count--not to mention the effect that patricide and the killing of Shae will have on Tyrion's psyche) but there's no question that being killed by his dwarf son while on the privy is the very last way Tywin Lannister would have wanted to go, so it's good in my book.

Still, I am wary of the obvious revenge plotlines (just as I'm wary of most obvious plotlines in the series.) Arya's prayer is fun to think about, but it's so extremely telegraphed that I can't help but think that it's going to turn on her somehow. I have an image in my head of Arya discovering that her entire hit-list is already dead (something that seems increasingly likely) and going completely, unrecognizably insane. I hope I'm wrong, but GRRM does seem to like taking these fun-as-fiction plotlines and graphically illustrate just how much they would suck in reality, and this would be one way to accomplish that with Arya.

[Fossoway]

As has been said, "vengeance," such as it is, comes about in twisted and complicated ways in this series. It's very rarely satisfying in the straight-out ways we might have predicted as readers, but I don't think it's any less delicious for all that. For example, Jaime losing his sword hand to Vargo Hoat is such staggeringly perfect karmic justice that it makes me smile every time I think about it. (And I'm a Jaime fan.)

I also agree with Baleraxar and Brother Wolf that Tywin's death was fantastically satisfying-- especially so, as Tyrion's trial takes every satisfying "victory" moment that Tyrion experiences in Clash of Kings and brings it around to bite him in the ass a dozen times over. There's still an element of cold-comfort about it (Robb and Cat are dead, the Starks down for the count--not to mention the effect that patricide and the killing of Shae will have on Tyrion's psyche) but there's no question that being killed by his dwarf son while on the privy is the very last way Tywin Lannister would have wanted to go, so it's good in my book.

Still, I am wary of the obvious revenge plotlines (just as I'm wary of most obvious plotlines in the series.) Arya's prayer is fun to think about, but it's so extremely telegraphed that I can't help but think that it's going to turn on her somehow. I have an image in my head of Arya discovering that her entire hit-list is already dead (something that seems increasingly likely) and going completely, unrecognizably insane. I hope I'm wrong, but GRRM does seem to like taking these fun-as-fiction plotlines and graphically illustrate just how much they would suck in reality, and this would be one way to accomplish that with Arya.

My memory is that she gave up her hit list at the end of aSoS -- after she abandoned the Hound. I don't recall her reciting it in aFfC.

[inkasrain]

My memory is that she gave up her hit list at the end of aSoS -- after she abandoned the Hound. I don't recall her reciting it in aFfC.

No, I'm pretty sure she recites it several times in the House of Black and White.

[EvilClosetMonkey]

Should Jaime have just turned himself over to Robert's justice once Bran saw him and Cersei? Maybe he should have just thrown himself out the window? I'm not saying that attempting to kill Bran was a good act, but it is certainly understandable and even a bit defensible. Jaime had to choose between Bran's life and the lives of Cersei, himself, and probably their kids as well. He chose his family's lives over that of one boy that he doesn't know and I think anyone that thinks they wouldn't be at least strongly tempted to make the same choice is kidding themselves. Obviously, it wasn't an easy choice as he did say that famous line with loathing, but can we really expect him to make another choice? He's a trained killer that comes from a culture that doesn't place the same value on a human life that we in modern western society do. I'd bet that Jaime would make that same choice again and that's why he doesn't seem that tortured about it. It was the only way to avoid his death, Cersei's death, and probably his kids' deaths (though I admit that this would be a secondary consideration to Jaime).

[Maestress Sand]

His father to refused to recognize him, because Tyrion isn't his son, and Tywin knows it.

Huh? I know Tywin always said that, but I definitely never gave it any seriousness. Tywin is pretty close to a sociopath himself. Achondroplasia (the most common kind of dwarfism), is autosomal dominantly inherited, but most cases are actually spontaneous mutations.

Personally, I felt Tywin's death was actually too overdone. It was perhaps satisfying and deserved, but it was far from realistic. Maybe it's just me.

Joffrey's death had so many moving parts and political machinations behind it, it felt both deserved and realistic.

[EvilClosetMonkey]

Huh? I know Tywin always said that, but I definitely never gave it any seriousness. Tywin is pretty close to a sociopath himself. Achondroplasia (the most common kind of dwarfism), is autosomal dominantly inherited, but most cases are actually spontaneous mutations.

There are several threads going over the theory that Tyrion is actually the son of Aerys & Joanna. I really don't feel like going over it as I don't buy it at all and the believers do a much better job of going over the finer points. I'll just say that I don't think it makes much sense within the context of the story and that it makes even less sense thematically.

[Maestress Sand]

There are several threads going over the theory that Tyrion is actually the son of Aerys & Joanna.

Oh yeah. I forgot about those. I never read them, they seemed too out-of-joint from the rest of the story...

[Whitering]

Consider this thought.

The Starks are the chosen of the "Old Gods" and Arya's nightly prayer has surely been heard by the Stranger.

The gods themselves are taking vengeance for the Starks. Any of her enemies who goes near the North dies, and Stranger is taking care of them down South. Gods move at their own pace though, so it may be a little while, but we know every one of those characters she lists will die before the end of the series.

They gave her the Tickler because Polliver had Needle.

[Maestress Sand]

The Starks are the chosen of the "Old Gods" and Arya's nightly prayer has surely been heard by the Stranger.

I like your thought overall Whitering. But the Stranger is one of the Seven. The old gods of the north have no names.

[Bronn is God]

ITT: Enraged Stark fans.

[inkasrain]

Consider this thought.

The Starks are the chosen of the "Old Gods" and Arya's nightly prayer has surely been heard by the Stranger.

The gods themselves are taking vengeance for the Starks. Any of her enemies who goes near the North dies, and Stranger is taking care of them down South. Gods move at their own pace though, so it may be a little while, but we know every one of those characters she lists will die before the end of the series.

They gave her the Tickler because Polliver had Needle.

Eh. Seems a little bit wishful to me. (Which Stark enemies have died going north?) Even if we assume that the Old Gods have power and are interested in interceding on behalf of their devotees, why should they favor the Starks over, say, the Boltons? The old Kings of Winter really dug the Old Gods, and they were apparently pretty nasty guys; maybe the ruthlessness of Ramsay and his father appeal to the Old Gods more than the softer, kinder people the Stark family has become?

Or maybe not. But what I'm saying is, I wouldn't rely on deities to provide much aid or justice-- certainly not as we interpret it. The human element of the books is much too strong, in my opinion, to have really significant problems (political or psychological) just "poofed" away by any of the higher powers.

[Knight of the Teabags]

Furthermore A+J = Bull is total threadjack anyway, so let's get back to discussing vengeance.

I think one thing to consider is whether vengeance as presented in ASoI&F is ultimately a completely futile pursuit as it seems to result in a downward spiral of violence and counter-violence. Consider the following:-

1) Robb Stark goes to war to avenge his executed father. The resulting conflict results in his death, that of his mother, as far as he knows all but one of his siblings and countless of his followers.

2) Balon Greyjoy launches a war of vengeance against the North to make them pay for killing all but one of his sons. His forces become hopelessly extended in which his remaining son is captured (again) by counter-attacking Northerners. Balon then has an 'accident' (or is murdered by an assassin) and his least favorite brother then usurps his kingdom.

3) Ayra and her list - which I believe she hasn't personally killed anyone on, just folks who've got in the way.

4) Daenerys whose main motivation is reclaim the kingdom (she's never seen) of her dead father (who she never knew and frankly if Jaime's memories of him are anything to go by, she was done a favor in never knowing!) from the 'usurper' and his dogs' (most of whom are already dead). So far this quest for vengeance has resulted in her wandering around the eastern continent sacking and murdering peoples of civilizations who arguably have never heard of Westeros or the folks she wants vengeance against.

5) Doran Martell who plots and plots for vengeance but so far has only achieved the alienation of his heir, his brother suiciding himself out of frustration and the disdain of his people. When he reveals his latest greatest plot of 'vengeance, fire and blood' just about everyone he could possibly want vengeance from are already dead!

[Blue Steel]

My view of Jaime's actions is that he was protecting himself and Cersei, not his children. The new early scene in the GoT HBO series (in Kings Landing) makes that abundantly clear -- Jaime makes the statement that Robert would have their heads on spikes if he knew of their incest.

Wait you can't justify a crime simply because someone is trying to hide the fact that they are already committing a crime.

There is no justification for Jaime throwing Bran out of the window. Even though he was protecting Cersei and their kids (which he wasn't since he didn't care about their kids at all at the time), that's not an excuse since Cersei and their kids wouldn't have been in danger if he wasn't betraying his king in the first place by sleeping with the queen.

[Greywolf2375]

Well, I have to say that personally the deaths of both Joffrey and Tommen were satisfying, for different reasons. Tywin's because he was killed by his son whom he always thought was lesser than him, and Joffrey's because he was killed by Olenna who saw this Joffrey's exterior did not want her granddaughter to be married to a monster. Both were equally satisfying for me. Now, I'm just waiting for Cersei.

It's been a while since I read AFFC, but when did Tommen die?

Bran is not really innocent, he violated their privacy.

How is he not innocent? Doing something he has done for a long time, he hears noises in a part of his home that he knows shouldn't be there and goes to them? How is he in any way in the wrong?

As far as the OP, no - I won't at all be disappointed if we get the cliched Stark vengeance on Lannister. I enjoy much more the fact that folks can and do get impacted (loss of prestige, limb and life) from avenues that they would never have expected.

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

What did Tommen ever do to you? :0

Seriously though, Jaime HAS been redeemed. Martin did it. The guy's one of the most popular characters in the series. Polarizing, but still popular. Plenty of people are hoping to see him survive the entire series, though I don't think he has a snowball's chance in hell of doing that.

Tyrion might, but I feel Casterly Rock is going to be short a family pretty soon... or home to a short family ba-dum tish.

/agreed

Jaime HAS been redeemed...in part.

I am one of those whose hatred of Jaime turned to sympathy and then support. I was as shocked as anyone at that turn, and for that, I can only marvel at the skillful writing by GRRM. In fact, I think GRRM's handling of Jaime has been brilliant. The thing that I most like about many of my favorite characters (Jaime, Sandor) is the opportunity for redemption.

Halfway through reading the series the first time, I started noting characters in the back of the book, and what I hoped for them in the future. Jaime has gone from "slow painful, humiliating death" to hoping that Brienne does in fact help him find his honor, and he completes his redemption through killing Cersei, protecting the true monarch (king? queen?), making peace with Tyrion and Bran, and dying to protect Brienne. Something noble along those lines. I would like the redemption cycle to come full circle.

Alas, I too think that Jaime will not survive the conclusion of the series, but I'll be happy enough with his redemption. I really can't see him living happily ever after.

Regarding the OP -- very interesting topic. I can understand why many folks read this from solely the viewpoint of the lovely Stark family, and hope for a personal Stark revenge for the atrocities. However, imo that is neither realistic, Martian or even very interesting. We know from history that wars conclude without a hero or a tidy ending. The War of the Roses, the inspiration of this series, was messy and complicated. As is ASoIAF.

Furthermore, I think as we mature, the theme of redemption becomes more personal and relevant. It GK Chesterton who wrote,

Children are innocent and love justice, while most adults are wicked and prefer mercy

I prefer mercy, in my life and in my novels.

Good topic.