In defense of Ned

[Parev]

Double post. Sorry.

[oba]

Nah. TBH, I believe that he hates House Lannister and now he saw his opportunity to get rid of them all.

Hmm. I've never gotten the impression that getting rid of House Lannister was Ned's purpose. Although, if you think it was, I can certainly see why you think Ned's a dunce. If that was his goal, his actions really do reek of stupidity.

Under the same circumstances, Ned formed an alliance and fought a war rather than face exile or execution.

Not really the same circumstances. A mad king called for Ned's head after killing his father and brother. In this instance, Ned's warning Cersei to flee before he tells Robert about her actions that would, in the eyes of most of Westeros, warrant execution. In the course of this conversation, Cersei admits to said actions. Seems like apples and oranges to me.

As an aside, I always felt that was one of the funniest things that GRRM slipped in there. Its strangely humanizing to see him try to extract the maximum political benefit from an opportunity that presented itself...although he went about it in the worst possible way.

Again, I don't get the sense that Ned's trying to extract maximum political benefit. He could have definitely taken actions that both maximized his political benefit and ensured that the Lannisters were out of the picture. He didn't do so . . . which is why many are characterizing him as stupid to begin with.

[oba]

My concern with the quote that I originally posted from Ned is that it has a natural conclusion. Ned didn't come to the natural conclusion. Instead he went to breakfast. If the natural conclusion came to him three days later, he's still dopey. Albeit he is an honest and honorable one.

In the section I posted we are in the character's head. If a character is thinking "one plus one equals..... Lunch!" then he's weird or a dope. Everyone else would be thinking "one plus one equals.... Two!"

I think you're off in terms of chronology, though. The chapter in which Ned thinks this is his penultimate chapter in the book.

Start of the chapter in question. Ned wakes up to the sound of Lannister guardsmen practicing in the yard. He has breakfast with his daughters and thinks to himself that it's Cersei putting on a brave front. Specifically, he thinks:

Damn her, he thought, why is the woman not fled? I have given her chance after chance . . .

At this point, though, Ned's already (as far as he's concerned) sent LF to buy the gold cloaks. Ned sits down to breakfast because he thinks he has 2,000 swords on his side.

[Alexia]

Not really the same circumstances.

*shrugs* Cersei is guilty of a crime and Ned was not. Both faced execution, the destruction of their respective Houses, and the execution of innocent family members, but Cersei also faced the execution of her children and her lover. I really don't see any reason for Cersei to react differently from Ned.

But I'll change that to say *similar* circumstances instead.

Again, I don't get the sense that Ned's trying to extract maximum political benefit. He could have definitely taken actions that both maximized his political benefit and ensured that the Lannisters were out of the picture. He didn't do so . . . which is why many are characterizing him as stupid to begin with.

But that's my point. I believe that he wanted to extract maximum political benefit for House Stark. His attempt to eliminate Tywin Lannister (I happen to think it was unwise to even mention Cersei's relatives) reeks of that. He hated Cersei, that was clear to us from the beginning of the book. He called her "that Lannister woman" and he resented the fact that Lannisters were receiving honors from the king.

So I think he was delighted to have the opportunity to eliminate the Lannisters, that he wanted to be able to completely get rid of them (as he did Cersei) and from there, I'm not actually sure what happened to the part that involves trying to accomplish the objectives.

[oba]

*shrugs* Cersei is guilty of a crime and Ned was not. Both faced execution, the destruction of their respective Houses, and the execution of innocent family members, but Cersei also faced the execution of her children and her lover. I really don't see any reason for Cersei to react differently from Ned.

Let me see if I can explain this. The guilt or innocence factor makes things different from Ned's perspective, not Cersei's. Sort of his whole line to Cersei about their differences:

Cersei: What makes you different than me or Jaime?

Ned: For a start, I don't murder children

Different circumstances and different reactions. Like the difference between fathering a bastard and being willing to commit murder to keep incest, etc. a secret.

IMO, Ned's thinking how he would react if in Cersei's shoes. That is, if he were guilty of a monstrous crime and offered the opportunity to preserve the lives of his children even if it meant exile, he'd take it.

We actually see a little bit later on that Ned is willing to accept going to the Wall and "admitting" to treason if it means keeping Sansa safe. Cersei proves unwilling to accept exile despite being guilty of treason. I'm not judging Cersei on this one just pointing out that I don't think it's accurate to compare her situation to that of Ned's at the start of Robert's Rebellion. I don't think we're meant to conclude that the situations were the same.

But that's my point. I believe that he wanted to extract maximum political benefit for House Stark. His attempt to eliminate Tywin Lannister (I happen to think it was unwise to even mention Cersei's relatives) reeks of that. He hated Cersei, that was clear to us from the beginning of the book. He called her "that Lannister woman" and he resented the fact that Lannisters were receiving honors from the king.

Ned certainly doesn't like Tywin, but we're privy to his POV chapters and IMO, there's nothing to indicate that thoughts of getting Tywin Lannister out of the way are on his mind during this sequence of events.

[Parev]

At this point, though, Ned's already (as far as he's concerned) sent LF to buy the gold cloaks. Ned sits down to breakfast because he thinks he has 2,000 swords on his side.

This proves my point exactly. He should have sensed that something was up when Cersei failed to flee. Like maybe she knew things he didn't. His lack of concern at that moment was stunningly stupid. Maybe a swifter man would have had more concern. He was oblivious.

[Nukelavee]

Parev...

You can't say a smarter man would have realized Cersei not leaving meant the game was up. You could easily assume she didn't run simply because she didn't know you owned the goldcloaks, or because she was brave or proud to the point of...heh.

Alexia - the LF/Renly thing occurs to me because of the Tyrells - It's too pat that the Tyrells are already in motion, and in position to further LF schemes. I mean, it could just be Petyr improvising, or it could be he put them into Renly's head in order to neutralize Stannis.

Hey - does anybody wonder if Margie knew her husband was banging her brother?

[Xenophon]

I thought Parev's point was based not so much on Ned's actions as his thought process. We're privy to his thoughts and they ran something like this: Hmm, Cersei's acting really strangely, I wonder why that could...oh, do I smell bacon? Breakfast time!

[Talleyrand]

I thought Parev's point was based not so much on Ned's actions as his thought process. We're privy to his thoughts and they ran something like this: Hmm, Cersei's acting really strangely, I wonder why that could...oh, do I smell bacon? Breakfast time!

Now i've got the image of Ned constantly being distracted by food.

At the Tower of Joy

"Die! Die! ooh a pheasant"

[Mr Lynx]

I have always had the impression that Littlefinger betrayed Ned when he understood that Ned never would change his mind upon who he wanted on the throne. Had Ned said Renly instead of Stannis I'm certain that Littlefinger would play along.

[oba]

I thought Parev's point was based not so much on Ned's actions as his thought process. We're privy to his thoughts and they ran something like this: Hmm, Cersei's acting really strangely, I wonder why that could...oh, do I smell bacon? Breakfast time!

And my point is that we are privy to his thoughts and they don't actually run that way. Something that surprised me on a re-read.

He thinks he has the gold cloaks. He breaks his fast with his daughters. He tells Arya she can have one last dancing lesson with Syrio. He tells Sansa she can't go see Joffrey one last time. (Sansa disobeys and goes to Cersei) An hour later, he summons Pycelle to his solar and tells him to summon the rest of his council. And all of this is long after Ned's talked to LF about buying the gold cloaks.

Is Ned a great player of the game of thrones? No. Is he Homer Simpson? Also no. :rolleyes:

[Winterwolff]

I don't think Ned is stupid at all. Like other posters have said, Ned was setup for failure before he even got to King's Landing...by LF of all people.

Even if Ned had successfully navigated his problems with Cersei...It would only be a matter of time till LF would have tried to force the Lannisters and Starks to go to war with each other...again.

If Ned is "stupid" so is the rest of the realm including the Lannisters, since they were played too.

[Myrish swan]

It seems clear from the thread about the "smartest" character that most readers seem to put Ned somewhere near the bottom if not actually at the bottom of the list. Why the Ned-hate?

Yes, he made some very bad decisions, but remember, he's a Man of the North. We're reminded throughout GoT that their ways are not the ways of the Southron Lords. Winterfell is distant and isolated from the other kingdoms, both physically, politically, and emotionally. Up there, Ned's cares are few--keep his family and his people safe from harm, particularly from the Beyond the Wall. Winter is coming, after all. That's where his focus is. What goes on south of The Neck--ie, the Game of Thrones--is secondary and pales in comparison.

When he leaves that behind for King's Landing, his naivete shouldn't come across as stupidity. The old ways aren't for fools, and Ned isn't foolish to believe in them. The way GRRM writes about it signals that those ways are important--and not just for Ned's sake. I wonder how much better off the other kingdoms would be if they all believed the same way? I'm not trying to set this up as an Old Ways vs. Faith of the Seven argument, because former seems less like an organized religion and more of a personal code of ethics.

Ned isn't used to dealing with southerners, at least since Robert took the throne. Outside of the North, other than Robert and Jon Arryn, there seemed few he trusted. No matter how honest and good-intentioned Renly might have acted, he was still a southerner and ignorant of "the clean simplicity" of the North. Perhaps Ned's fault lies in believing everyone should think and act like he does. "War should not be a game," for example.

Now, I don't know why he came to trust, or at least rely on, Varys and Littlefinger. That's a sticky question. Perhaps he felt he needed help from someone, and those two seemed to know the most. His mind wasn't made for intrigue, and so maybe he decided to swallow his pride and take counsel from those who lived for it, never believing they'd take advantage of him. Varys won him over by speaking plainly and honestly about the king, about "the paper shield" that was the Kingsguard, and about the threat of the Lannisters. If it were not for LF's connection with Cat and House Tully, I'm not completely sure he would have listened to him, but who knows? LF told him to his face not to trust him, and Ned still did.

*Sigh* I guess some decisions are stupid ones after all.

Ned wasn't a stupid character at all; he was simply a man forced into a job he totally lacked the experience and temperment for. Ned was clearly not incompetent-- he was a very good Lord of the North. He was just not the best hand of the king. However, I'm not even sure his failures as hand were due so much to his own lack of cunning as to the fact that he was basically thrust into a snake pit, and did not have a single friend or person to trust who could advise him about Southern politics and the factions at court. The only person he could trust was his old friend King Bob, and Robert Baratheon truly was a bit dim.

I think a lot of us make "Oh, Ned was so stooopid!" comments casually, but with the benefit of hindsight. Really, many of the "idiotic" decisions that Ned makes are either not really so stupid in context, or actions that Ned realizes are stupid, but does anyway for emotional reasons. For instance, when he warns Cersei to get the kids and leave, he realizes that he is taking a risk, I believe. He does it because of his basic decency, and also due to the fact that he was truly traumatized by the murder of the Targ kids, and has no wish to repeat the experience. And when I first read the book, I thought that Littlefinger was trustworthy as well. After all, Ned would probably think, LF is Cat's childhood friend and surrogate brother. Surely that connection would indicate that he was trustworthy?

And further regarding the whole LF thing-- honestly, when I first read the book, I thought he was loyal to Cat myself. He seemed to me like a guy whose outward "scoundrel" facade hid a heart of gold. Clearly, I was really, really wrong in this, but his apparent fondness for Cat, as well as the sad story of the whole Brandon duel, really made me feel for him. Honestly, I don't think Ned's trusting LF despite LF specifically warning Ned not to trust him was all that stupid. Perhaps LF's admission to Ned that he was "untrustworthy" was interpreted by Ned as LF simply being self deprecating. This was how I took it, at least.

The only slightly dim thing on Ned's part, IMO, is when he doesn't even realize that Cersei was behind Robert's death. Also, he doesn't realize that the fact that she hasn't left yet is intentional. Honestly, he really should have taken Renly up on his offer.

[Rockroi]

Dropping in some late comments.

Ned's greatest detriment was that he lived his whole life (save the 1 year he went to war) in almost absurd isolation. While he was sired at the Erie, he never travels to any of the other families, and after the war- 15+ years- he never even leaves winterfell (save to put down Greyjoy). He never had the opportunity to hone the skills necessary to be a Hand. Robert was not looking for the wise counsel he got in Jon Arryn nor the Machevellian brilliance he had available in Tywin. Instead, Robert prized loyalty, and that was the most impressive aspect of Ned's portfolio. Otherwise, Ned had no ability to deal with complicated, complex relationships nor the experience in dealing with people who had conflicting- not merely parallel -goals.

And this says nothing of Ned's inexperience with people who cannot merely order around. Ned had ZERO experience since Robb's birth in interfacing with people who did not see him as their liege lord- in other words, Ned always dealt with people who saw him as their superior; did what he said and did not question any of this. Ned's world was decidedly simple: he ruled, everyone else followed. While some men like Tywin Lannister and Jon Arryn could adapt to the change in becoming Hand, Ned was powerless once Hand. He could not take Robert's orders nor get others to carry out his own.

But all this is only subtext to Ned's monumental blunders: sending men to track down the Mountain, telling Cersei the plan without taking precautions, refusing to secure the loyalties of Renly or Littlefinger when they became the most critical; failure to cultivate NAY relationships prior to Robert's death; failure to adequately supply himself with military security; failure to adequately hide his plans of escape. The list is boundless.

Ned Stark may not have been "stupid" - he did, after all, figure out the Cersei-Jaime relationship; he probably is more aptly called "diluted" and "simple" who believed that once he snapped his fingers and proclaimed something, everything would fall into place. Instead, he was utterly outsmarted and destroyed by a woman who has since been revealed to be boarder-line demented. Ned never contemplated that others would use their advantages to destroy him.

Maybe the best thing that could be said about Ned was that he never lifted the vale that separated his thought process from the darker sides of human nature: Ned NEVER contemplated killing Cersei, and thus never contemplated that Cersei would try to kill him; Ned never contemplated leaving Renly and others abandoned, thus it never occurred to him that they would abandon him; Ned never contemplated going back on his word so it never occurred to him that others would do that to him.

In the end, I think had Ned been more experienced he would have been better apt at being Hand. he was more "ignorant" than stupid. And that's literally the kindest way to say it.

[iamthedave]

But all this is only subtext to Ned's monumental blunders: sending men to track down the Mountain,

Yeah. He should have sent them with chocolates and flowers to reward him for brutally raping, murdering and burning everything in sight.

Ned's biggest blunder was attempting to be just and honest.

[Spring Bass]

Ned's greatest detriment was that he lived his whole life (save the 1 year he went to war) in almost absurd isolation. While he was sired at the Erie, he never travels to any of the other families, and after the war- 15+ years- he never even leaves winterfell (save to put down Greyjoy).

Having just finished A Game of Thrones, one thing I noticed is that Sansa Stark is a form of "collateral damage" due to this. She's brought up in this hugely sheltered way that renders her hopelessly naive and idealistic, and it's no surprise - before her departure to King's Landing, she's never experienced anything outside of the relatively dull, predictable safety of Winterfell except via songs, stories, and "proper lady training" from Septa Mordane.*

* Catelyn apparently never tried to break her bubble either, or tried and failed. I get the impression that she cares more about her sons, at least before the events in the series.

Ned never contemplated that others would use their advantages to destroy him.

I think that's where Ned's inexperience really shines through. A lot of things that seem "obvious" to characters like Tyrion about the motivations and tactics of other players in the Game of Thrones don't seem to occur to Ned.

Yeah. He should have sent them with chocolates and flowers to reward him for brutally raping, murdering and burning everything in sight.

He knew they were likely doing so under the oversight of Tywin Lannister, in retaliation for Catelyn Stark's abduction of Tyrion. A wiser Hand who wasn't so quick to jump to conclusions might have tried to defuse the situation via negotiation, or at the very least wouldn't have sent out a large contingent of his own men as part of the force to hunt down Gregor Clegane.

As Varys said near the end of the chapter, even sending out Ilyn Payne might have added greater legitimacy to the whole effort.

[oba]

Having just finished A Game of Thrones, one thing I noticed is that Sansa Stark is a form of "collateral damage" due to this. She's brought up in this hugely sheltered way that renders her hopelessly naive and idealistic, and it's no surprise - before her departure to King's Landing, she's never experienced anything outside of the relatively dull, predictable safety of Winterfell except via songs, stories, and "proper lady training" from Septa Mordane.*

* Catelyn apparently never tried to break her bubble either, or tried and failed. I get the impression that she cares more about her sons, at least before the events in the series.

Sansa's what, 12 years old at the start of the series? At some point, I don't think it's realistic to expect children to be raised that way or for children not to be somewhat naive before experiencing life's harsh realities.

Look at Tywin's children. We don't get the impression that Jaime or Cersei were particularly world-wise in their pre-teen (or even teen) years. Tywin certainly gave Tyrion a "harsh lesson" and it didn't exactly work out well for either of them. IMO, Sansa's no better or worse than any of the other highborn kids we've seen in this series.

It brings to mind the Dunk and Egg novellas. Egg's pretty down-to-earth, all thing considered, but he also dreams of being a KG knight, just knows that all bastards are untrustworthy, and thinks any outlaws he'll encounter will be just like the brave outlaws in the songs he's heard.

He knew they were likely doing so under the oversight of Tywin Lannister, in retaliation for Catelyn Stark's abduction of Tyrion. A wiser Hand who wasn't so quick to jump to conclusions might have tried to defuse the situation via negotiation

How would that have worked, exactly? Tywin's whole plan was to get Ned to go himself hoping to capture him. The whole thing was a trap. The aggrieved river lords went to Hoster Tully. Hoster Tully sent them to King's Landing to seek the king's justice. Meanwhile, Tywin's dog keeps raping and pillaging. A wise hand would have just sent Lord Tywin a stern letter? Tywin wasn't interested in negotiating.

or at the very least wouldn't have sent out a large contingent of his own men as part of the force to hunt down Gregor Clegane.

Ned sent twenty of his own men. Not exactly a large contingent.

As Varys said near the end of the chapter, even sending out Ilyn Payne might have added greater legitimacy to the whole effort.

I don't think the mission lacked legitimacy. The Hand of the King, while seated on the Iron Throne, sent out a force to bring Gregor Clegane to justice.

[Kittyhat]

This is true. But it is actually absurd that Ned would trust Littlefinger to the extent he does because:

1) He seems untrustworthy even to Ned (in his PoV Ned notes this repeatedly)

2) Ned knows Littlefinger is in love with Ned's wife, so has every reason to want Ned DEAD.

The only thing I can think is that Ned trusts Catelyn's judgement so completely that he ignores 1 and 2 above. I don't know any other way to explain it. If the explanation was "Ned was stupid," then Ned would have failed to understand 1&2 in the first place. Instead, he knew 1&2 were true, and yet trusted LF anyway. :dunno: I guess you could say that Ned was rash...? He took action that he knew was risky because he felt he had to?

I think this is kind of where I sit with Ned now. This and the really puzzling part where he expresses surprise that Cersei hasn't fled after he "warned" her. Even while he was "warning" her, she was pretty much responding in an unrepentant, even challenging way.

Personally, if I'd done as he did (not that I likely would; sharing everything you know about your enemy with your enemy still strikes me as crazy ... even given he had a strong reason) and then seen that Cersei was still hanging around, apparently unconcerned, I'd have had alarm bells going off in my head. I certainly wouldn't be thinking, "I've given her every chance ..." My thoughts would be more like, "Oh, sh*t. What have I missed here?"

I was actually swayed by the earlier points about personal honor, though. I may personally place a higher premium on duty, but that doesn't automatically make Ned's brand of honor wrong. On reflection, too, I think I may have been underestimating the danger to the children in almost any scenario Ned would have been willing to pursue save the one he actually did. For one, it's necessary to consider that Robert was neither a reasonable nor good man. Which makes me wonder again, how in the hell did he and Ned become such close friends?

But that still leaves us with a Ned who seems to make some extremely avoidable, extremely glaringly stupid mistakes that have a lot more to do with sheer blindness or naivety than anything like "honor before reason."

I'm inclined to give him more credit now than I did before, but I still find him frustrating. And seriously, how did he ever become friends with a monster like Robert??

[Spring Bass]

Sansa's what, 12 years old at the start of the series? At some point, I don't think it's realistic to expect children to be raised that way or for children not to be somewhat naive before experiencing life's harsh realities.

Compare to Arya, or even Joffrey. Neither of them have that same pie-eyed idealism - even Joffrey's hero-worship of dead Robert isn't as bad.

How would that have worked, exactly? Tywin's whole plan was to get Ned to go himself hoping to capture him. The whole thing was a trap. The aggrieved river lords went to Hoster Tully. Hoster Tully sent them to King's Landing to seek the king's justice. Meanwhile, Tywin's dog keeps raping and pillaging. A wise hand would have just sent Lord Tywin a stern letter? Tywin wasn't interested in negotiating.

The King is right there, along with the Queen (who is a Lannister). Work something out so that Tyrion gets released (for the time being), and then send the raven to Tywin. He's not burning the Riverlands for fun.

Ned sent twenty of his own men. Not exactly a large contingent.

It was a big chunk of his personal retinue in King's Landing.

I don't think the mission lacked legitimacy. The Hand of the King, while seated on the Iron Throne, sent out a force to bring Gregor Clegane to justice.

His orders including stripping Clegane of all noble rights and executing him. Send the King's Executioner to execute the enemy of the King adds legitimacy to that.

[oba]

Compare to Arya, or even Joffrey. Neither of them have that same pie-eyed idealism - even Joffrey's hero-worship of dead Robert isn't as bad.

You're right, Joffrey doesn't have pie-eyed idealism. He has something much, much worse. He takes a drunken comment from Robert and decides to send a footpad after Bran.

Meanwhile, Sansa, at age 11 or 12 hadn't yet learned that life isn't like the songs she hears. You really think Joffrey's world view is preferable?

The King is right there, along with the Queen (who is a Lannister). Work something out so that Tyrion gets released (for the time being), and then send the raven to Tywin. He's not burning the Riverlands for fun.

1. Robert's still out hunting, which is why Ned's left to handle it.

2. You really think Cersei's going to work with Ned to get her father to cooperate on this one? What's more, you think Ned should have considered this a likely possibility? How's that conversation going to go?

3. Once Robert comes back, Ned's supposed to work with Cersei and Robert to negotiate with Tywin? So, Ned's naive for trusting LF, but he should think that he, Cersei, and Robert can all get together to agree on the wording of a raven to send to Tywin? I really don't see it.

It was a big chunk of his personal retinue in King's Landing.

And? In the end, we see that the lack of these 20 men didn't make a difference one way or another.

His orders including stripping Clegane of all noble rights and executing him. Send the King's Executioner to execute the enemy of the King adds legitimacy to that.

What added legitimacy was needed? Do you think Clegane would have cared? Do you think Tywin would have cared? For those who were going to question the legitimacy of the action, do you really think adding Ilyn Payne to the party would have made them stop questioning it?

Also, Varys doesn't say that sending Ilyn Payne would make the mission more legitimate. Here's the exchange between Ned and Varys on this issue:

"Had it been me up there, I should have sent Ser Loras. He so wanted to go . . . and a man who has the Lannisters for his enemies would do well to make the Tyrells his friends."

"Ser Loras is young," said Ned. "I daresay he will outgrow the disappointment."

"And Ser Ilyn?" The eunuch stroked a plump, powdered cheek. "He is the King's Justice, after all. Sending other men to do his office . . . some might construe that as a grave insult."

To which Ned responds that the Paynes are bannermen to House Lannister and that sending a Lannister bannerman on this task doesn't seem like such a good idea. (Not to mention that Ilyn Payne used to be the captain of the Hand's guard when Tywin was the Hand).

Seriously, at this point it seems like you're on a quest to describe every action Ned took as stupid, naive, or both. Fair enough, but I don't think the book really supports it.