Is Rhaegar alive?!?

[Quoth]

Ya see! This is why Robert should have published the death photos!

Sorta seriously, though... I love me my crackpot theories. And this one ranks up there with the best. Theories, crackpot or no, have driven much of this boards discourse, both serious and often times hilarious. So, please don't stop. :)

[Xcorpyo001]

Ya see! This is why Robert should have published the death photos!

Photos can be forged. I need the negatives as well :D . And the guy who took the pictures so I can be 99% convinced.

[tybeechris]

Keep the new theories coming, makes for even more fun and thought. Who knows how much more is out there that no one has caught yet?

Its probably incorrect as noted in the discussion but the first person who came up with R+L=J was probably shot down too.

[Greywolf2375]

-they probably can't do it, if he was dead...but he(and others before him) can heal wounds that no one else can...how do you explain this without some magic/dragon blood involved?

I'm trying to remember, but I believe the healing of wounds was CPR

-he was beautiful. But wounds and the passing of time(also known as aging) can alter some features in someone.

Aging will alter features - longer nose, bags under the eyes, but not change the structure of what someone looks like

I don't know how Cersei would have described a bald Rhaegar :)

And Brienne didn't called him ugly. He just has some strong features...

And someone said that he also smashed his head after smashing his armor with the hammer? In which book/chapter is this part? I want to find as many references to that fight, but I found only a couple of them, and none had a lot of info on what really happened there...

And about him being poor, just a part of the cover story.

The question that always comes to mind with the various "XX is alive" theories is....why? Why have Rhaegar alive? What does it do for the story as written?

[Xcorpyo001]

I'm trying to remember, but I believe the healing of wounds was CPR

I really don't think arrow wounds and a big hole in his chest can be 'healed' by CPR(Cardiopulmonary resuscitation), but I may be mistaken.

Aging will alter features - longer nose, bags under the eyes, but not change the structure of what someone looks like

Again, she didn't said ugly, just a strong jaw and some shape of the head. That alone can't make a man ugly.

The question that always comes to mind with the various "XX is alive" theories is....why? Why have Rhaegar alive? What does it do for the story as written?

I have another question for you: Why not?

-he can be a good advisor for Dani

-he can shed some light about his relation with Lyanna

he can die again, this time for real :devil:

etc.

[Thoheeks Bili]

Photos can be forged. I need the negatives as well :D . And the guy who took the pictures so I can be 99% convinced.

Sorry, he was last seen with Qyburn....... :smoking:

[paddydubh]

Wasn't there a Brother on the Isle who used to be Ironborn? Or am I pulling that out of somewhere even Renly couldn't find?

That would explain the use of CPR and not magic on a drowned soldier hit in the head.

[Yarl Snow]

Let's go to the 4th book of the series, AFFC, and to Brienne. She finds a little island where some priests/brothers have a little settlement. There she finds the leader of that settlement, the Big Brother. He was a man who fought in the battle of the Trident, and was wash away until he reached the island...along with 6 rubies from Rhaegar's armor.

...

Let's look a little closer at this Elder Brother(Rhaegar is Dani's elder brother, but this is only conjecture)

"Elder Brother" is a really cute reference. ;) Although rather blatant of GRRM if it was true. Almost on par with... "The Hound" scratching "Dog" behind the ear.

Though of course, it is not his own title, and only makes sense if you look at it through Dany's eyes. Rhaegar was many things: Husband, father, sire, lord, king.

His head is shaved, and his beard as well….his hair is starting to grow again, but alas, Brienne fails to mention the color of it

Egg (Aegon V) from the Dunk and Egg novellas shaved his hair to hide his Targaryen characteristics. It sets a precedent for the technique.

-he tells Brienne that the hound is dead and buried, but the spoilers…never mind that

It's not spoilers if it is not ADWD info. Yes, I like the synergy. "The hound died in my arms," he said, much like one would say "Rhaegar died on the Trident." It sets a precedent for the act of pretending to be dead.

He tells Brienne he died in the battle of the Trident(metaphorically or resurrected by the Elder Brother before him)

Did he actually say that? If so, it strengthens the previous precedent a little.

-he was a knight, but he never chose it…

...

-' I had women too, and there I did disgrace myself, for some I took by force'…could he be talking about a certain Stark beauty?!?

...

-' There was a girl I wished to marry, the younger daughter of a petty lord'…this can again be a reference to Lyanna Stark

Knight, and not by choice, is not quite true. Rhaegar did choose it. Not because he wanted it, but because he thought he needed to.

As for women, he says "some", meaning there were more than one, which is not consistent with Lyanna.

"younger daughter" means there were two daughters, doesn't it? "Younger son" would mean the non-heir. If there is only one daughter, one would simply say "daughter".

All in all, I think there's quite a few holes in the theory, but interesting nonetheless. I think that in Elder Brother's story, he mentions being rather poor, and being upset about losing his horse, because he could not be a knight without a horse.

I'm going to have to go find my copy of AffC now. ;)

...we might not have had to suffer through all the theoris...

How on earth is it anything but your fault that you read theories you do not agree with?

[Snowy89]

Yes, you have a good point. Where are the ashes?

Ah, the quest for Rhaegars ashes!

[Kaitscralt]

Brienne would not have glossed over violet eyes. She'd have thought about them.

[Gregor Barksdale]

Rhaegar and Varys are the same person, it is known.

[Xcorpyo001]

Rhaegar and Varys are the same person, it is known.

lol, how did I missed that????

He probably tried to rape Lyanna and she cut his penis off with her own version of Needle...it is not known.

He was so ashamed that he just run from Westeros and came back as Varys.

He must know ho to create clones of himself though, because Varys was his father's councilor even when Rhaegar was alive, but lets not dwell on that. Good theory ;)

[The King's Foot]

Rhaegar and Varys are the same person, it is known.

Man, Robert really smacked the bejeezus out of him with that hammer I guess! Knocked his twig and berries right off!

[Greywolf2375]

I really don't think arrow wounds and a big hole in his chest can be 'healed' by CPR(Cardiopulmonary resuscitation), but I may be mistaken.

I think we're crossing characters - who are you stating has healed these wounds? Rhaegar? Or the Brother?

Again, she didn't said ugly, just a strong jaw and some shape of the head. That alone can't make a man ugly.

I didn't say anywhere "ugly" - the description that is given for the brother does not fit the descriptions we're given for Rhaegar. Aging does not change the shape of a skull.

I have another question for you: Why not?

-he can be a good advisor for Dani

-he can shed some light about his relation with Lyanna

he can die again, this time for real :devil:

etc.

Because in my opinion it would lessen the story that has been written. This isn't Aemon, why would the King step aside for Dany and be an advisor? Why do we need to have the relationship revealed from him? Why have him die this time - to what end? Who would do it?

[Lady Alyana Hightower]

I really love all of the thought that went into this theory, and it would have made for a very plausible one...if we didn't already have an explanation from GRRM about what happened to Rhaegar's body.

See this:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Forum_Chat/

[Xcorpyo001]

"Elder Brother" is a really cute reference. ;) Although rather blatant of GRRM if it was true. Almost on par with... "The Hound" scratching "Dog" behind the ear.

Though of course, it is not his own title, and only makes sense if you look at it through Dany's eyes. Rhaegar was many things: Husband, father, sire, lord, king.

Egg (Aegon V) from the Dunk and Egg novellas shaved his hair to hide his Targaryen characteristics. It sets a precedent for the technique.

It's not spoilers if it is not ADWD info. Yes, I like the synergy. "The hound died in my arms," he said, much like one would say "Rhaegar died on the Trident." It sets a precedent for the act of pretending to be dead.

Did he actually say that? If so, it strengthens the previous precedent a little.

Knight, and not by choice, is not quite true. Rhaegar did choose it. Not because he wanted it, but because he thought he needed to.

As for women, he says "some", meaning there were more than one, which is not consistent with Lyanna.

"younger daughter" means there were two daughters, doesn't it? "Younger son" would mean the non-heir. If there is only one daughter, one would simply say "daughter".

All in all, I think there's quite a few holes in the theory, but interesting nonetheless. I think that in Elder Brother's story, he mentions being rather poor, and being upset about losing his horse, because he could not be a knight without a horse.

I'm going to have to go find my copy of AffC now. ;)

About Egg: I thought the same thing. That's why I came with this idea. We know that throughout history there have been another two Targ who have chosen different vocation. We have Egg, as Aemon the Dragonknight, a member of the Kingsguaard(the warrior), Maester Aemon(healer), and if my theory proves to be correct, we have Rhaegar , that choses to be a brother of the Faith(priest)...so these three can form a trinity of sorts.

About the part of the story that don't add up...he had to make up a cover story: I don't think he would have been able to hide from Robert if he tells everybody he is Rhaegar or even an heir to a king...but a poor nameless knight that 'died' in close proximity to Rhaegar(he washes ashore in the same place as pieces of Rhaegar's armor)...nobody will think twice about him

And even most parts of the story can be interpreted as metaphors that can be connected to Rhaegar in some manner. In the first post I've presented these:

he fought on Rhaegar’s side(obviously);

He tells Brienne he died in the battle of the Trident(metaphorically or resurrected by the Elder Brother before him)

-he washed up on the island without his armor

-he was a knight, but he never chose it…

-he did not disgraced himself with a sword(that sounds vaguely familiar)

-‘ I had women too, and there I did disgrace myself, for some I took by force’…could he be talking about a certain Stark beauty?!?

-‘ There was a girl I wished to marry, the younger daughter of a petty lord’…this can again be a reference to Lyanna Stark

Let's see what we can do about the horse. He lost his horse...how can he be a knight without a horse? Maybe the horse is a metaphor for his honor...by kidnapping Lyanna he lost his honor, and he didn't considered himself worthy of that title again. He tried to gain that honor back in battle, but he failed.

He also says samething interesting at the end, about not having anything to give to the woman he loves, only "a sword, a horse, a shield"

But Rhaegar offered Lyanna a sword and a shield. The shield are the three Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, one of them being Arthur Dayne, hailed as the "Sword of the Morning"

If the first horse can be a metaphor for honor, I honestly can't say what this second horse stands for. :unsure:

And about the body: It was never found...I found the line....in one of Jaime's chapters. He talks about a Hand :"Jon Connington had been Prince Rhaegar’s friend. When Merryweather failed so dismally to contain Robert’s Rebellion and Prince Rhaegar could not be found, Aerys had turned to the next best thing, and raised Connington to the Handship. But the Mad King was always chopping off his Hands"

So they saw him fall in the water(not on clean ground), at the same time all jumped in the water to take those rubies, and they all thought he was dead. But later on they couldn't find his body.

If Robert would have found the body later, he would have brag about it, and if loyalist would have found it, why was his father still looking for him?!?

@Greywolf2375

He couldn't be king again because as a brother he swore a vow of celibacy.

He could die saving Dani's life or whatever

@Lady Alyana Hightower

So in the book they say they didn't found his body, but at a press conference GRRM says Rhaegar's body(or a body they thought it was Rhaegar...my add-on) was cremated.

Strange.

It will seem I have to read all the press conferences as well along with the books to make a better picture of the situation, lol

[Dragonfish]

And about the body: It was never found...I found the line....in one of Jaime's chapters. He talks about a Hand :"Jon Connington had been Prince Rhaegar’s friend. When Merryweather failed so dismally to contain Robert’s Rebellion and Prince Rhaegar could not be found, Aerys had turned to the next best thing, and raised Connington to the Handship. But the Mad King was always chopping off his Hands"

So they saw him fall in the water(not on clean ground), at the same time all jumped in the water to take those rubies, and they all thought he was dead. But later on they couldn't find his body.

If Robert would have found the body later, he would have brag about it, and if loyalist would have found it, why was his father still looking for him?!?

Jon Connington was raised to Handship before Rhaegar died. When Jaime said Rhaegar couldn't be found, he meant before the end of the war he was off somewhere doing who knows what. See Lady Alyana Hightower's post above for what actually happened to Rhaegar's body.

[Baleraxar]

And about the body: It was never found...I found the line....in one of Jaime's chapters. He talks about a Hand :"Jon Connington had been Prince Rhaegar’s friend. When Merryweather failed so dismally to contain Robert’s Rebellion and Prince Rhaegar could not be found, Aerys had turned to the next best thing, and raised Connington to the Handship. But the Mad King was always chopping off his Hands"

So they saw him fall in the water(not on clean ground), at the same time all jumped in the water to take those rubies, and they all thought he was dead. But later on they couldn't find his body.

If Robert would have found the body later, he would have brag about it, and if loyalist would have found it, why was his father still looking for him?!?

Connington was made Hand (and then fired) long before the Trident. Rhaegar couldn't be found because he was hanging out at the Tower of Joy, not because he was dead.

He must know ho to create clones of himself though, because Varys was his father's councilor even when Rhaegar was alive, but lets not dwell on that. Good theory

No, see, Rhaegar was actually a Faceless Man, he killed the original Varys and took his place.

[Xcorpyo001]

Jon Connington was raised to Handship before Rhaegar died. When Jaime said Rhaegar couldn't be found, he meant before the end of the war he was off somewhere doing who knows what. See Lady Alyana Hightower's post above for what actually happened to Rhaegar's body.

Unfortunately, I've read that post :owned:

And this one... :owned: again

I had my chronology mixed up: I thought the Battle of the Bells was after the one at the Trident. Unfortunately, it's the other way around.

So I must return to my previous question? Where are the ashes????

Ahh, bugger that. It was nice while it lasted. I give up. Let's move out to greener pastures

And it seems I still have some :read: to do.

@Baleraxar...he wasn't just hanging out at the ToJ...maybe our beatiful lady Stark was in pains(delivering a baby and such). There wasn't any war more important than that :)

[Chanur]

Eaxtly :)

Party!

I thought this was going to be a very clever Donner party reference. Son I am disappoint.