Is Rhaegar alive?!?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I really hate the "this would be poor writing" argument, but that is really what I thought while reading this theory (sorry to the OP and others, I respect your opinions but it wouldn't make sense to me).

I just imagined Rhaegar coming back (after hundreds saw him die under the blow of Robert at the Trident!) after 20 years of hiding and just like "hi dudes, guess what, I wasn't dead, just 'been hanging with my pals Arthur and Ashara in the swamps [or insert any other location of your own choice] and now I'm back to take the throne yippee yay who's with me you guys? Oh and it so happens I found a harp in this room, maybe we should sing a little song to celebrate?!".

It's not a theory,

I'm sorry but it is just an idea with no textual evidence at all. It would be the same as if I said; 'what if Rhaegar is actually Sookie Stackhouse and has been screwing vampires for the last 10 years?'

[Mayura]

It's not a theory,

I'm sorry but it is just an idea with no textual evidence at all. It would be the same as if I said; 'what if Rhaegar is actually Sookie Stackhouse and has been screwing vampires for the last 10 years?'

Now, that would be a plot twist!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

It's not a theory,

I'm sorry but it is just an idea with no textual evidence at all. It would be the same as if I said; 'what if Rhaegar is actually Sookie Stackhouse and has been screwing vampires for the last 10 years?'

Indeed a great plot twist but as of the end of ADWD we're talking 19 years.

I shall put forth another theory: Rhaegar is dead, but his secret twin is alive. :devil:

[It's Not That Littlefinger]

no.

[The Black Kraken]

Man I wish, that would be awesome.. jon snow is AA I am almost 100% confident

[Modesty Lannister]

So, while reading ASOIAF, readers accepted that we don't know who Varys is a that he adopts several identities and disguises. We accepted that Jorah Mormont does not recognise Barristan Selmy in disguise. We accepted that Arya adopts different identities. We accept Halfhand's deception of Jon's defection. We accept that Tyrion borrows and adopts other identities. We accept Griff in disguise. Shall I go on? The only thing unimaginable is that RT saw the threat from the north as the priority, changed identity and became the king-beyond-the-wall. Please. Barristan Selmy says that the mad kings showed up at the tourney of Harrenhall, because he suspected RT was plotting against him with other high lords. RT parts with JL with assurances that he will introduce change. And then he dies. Anybody could have been wearing that armour. GRRM never writes about what happened with RT's body. Yes, he said in an interview that RT would be cremated as all Targs would, but that is too ambiguous to conclude he is dead in the story. Look at Mance Rayder more closely and you will see that:

1. he wears Targaryan colours

2. plays and sings and knows all the songs from south and north

3. can sweet-talk/sing/fight every wildling leader into submission (leadership skills that are hardly to be expected from a wildling born crow)

4. went to Winterfell twice to see Jon (and king Robert, but it is interesting he does not harbour any resentment towards the king whose wall he intends to attack)

5. spends hours locked with Stannis after being captured. Would Stannis do that if MR was a low-born wildling bastard? Would Stannis hide him in that case? Stannis is a soldier who was trained to obey his elders, be it his brother or a king. He debated whether he should be loyal to Robert or the mad king and decided for the former, because he judged the king to be mad. If Aegon were sane, Stannis wouldn't have followed Robert.

6. Being protected by the red priestess with glamour. Why? She wanted to kill Edric Storm who is a Baratheon by blood and protects this widlling king?

7. MR is educated. He addresses his wife as my lady. He knows about the Horn of Winter. Hardly something one can expect from a widlling bastard turned crow turned king-beyond-the-wall.

I can go on and on … However, please do reject this theory. I'll be happy to discuss it further after book 6.

[WhiteOwl18]

He's dead. There's no way around it.

[MyLittleFinger]

So, while reading ASOIAF, readers accepted that we don't know who Varys is a that he adopts several identities and disguises. We accepted that Jorah Mormont does not recognise Barristan Selmy in disguise. We accepted that Arya adopts different identities. We accept Halfhand's deception of Jon's defection. We accept that Tyrion borrows and adopts other identities. We accept Griff in disguise. Shall I go on? The only thing unimaginable is that RT saw the threat from the north as the priority, changed identity and became the king-beyond-the-wall. Please. Barristan Selmy says that the mad kings showed up at the tourney of Harrenhall, because he suspected RT was plotting against him with other high lords. RT parts with JL with assurances that he will introduce change. And then he dies. Anybody could have been wearing that armour. GRRM never writes about what happened with RT's body. Yes, he said in an interview that RT would be cremated as all Targs would, but that is too ambiguous to conclude he is dead in the story. Look at Mance Rayder more closely and you will see that:

1. he wears Targaryan colours

2. plays and sings and knows all the songs from south and north

3. can sweet-talk/sing/fight every wildling leader into submission (leadership skills that are hardly to be expected from a wildling born crow)

4. went to Winterfell twice to see Jon (and king Robert, but it is interesting he does not harbour any resentment towards the king whose wall he intends to attack)

5. spends hours locked with Stannis after being captured. Would Stannis do that if MR was a low-born wildling bastard? Would Stannis hide him in that case? Stannis is a soldier who was trained to obey his elders, be it his brother or a king. He debated whether he should be loyal to Robert or the mad king and decided for the former, because he judged the king to be mad. If Aegon were sane, Stannis wouldn't have followed Robert.

6. Being protected by the red priestess with glamour. Why? She wanted to kill Edric Storm who is a Baratheon by blood and protects this widlling king?

7. MR is educated. He addresses his wife as my lady. He knows about the Horn of Winter. Hardly something one can expect from a widlling bastard turned crow turned king-beyond-the-wall.

I can go on and on … However, please do reject this theory. I'll be happy to discuss it further after book 6.

If Mance is Rhaegar, then Rhaegar is even more of a cowardly cunt than I could possibly imagine. He's dead in all his "tragic" splendour.

[Alliser Trump]

So, while reading ASOIAF, readers accepted that we don't know who Varys is a that he adopts several identities and disguises. We accepted that Jorah Mormont does not recognise Barristan Selmy in disguise. We accepted that Arya adopts different identities. We accept Halfhand's deception of Jon's defection. We accept that Tyrion borrows and adopts other identities. We accept Griff in disguise. Shall I go on? The only thing unimaginable is that RT saw the threat from the north as the priority, changed identity and became the king-beyond-the-wall. Please. Barristan Selmy says that the mad kings showed up at the tourney of Harrenhall, because he suspected RT was plotting against him with other high lords. RT parts with JL with assurances that he will introduce change. And then he dies. Anybody could have been wearing that armour. GRRM never writes about what happened with RT's body. Yes, he said in an interview that RT would be cremated as all Targs would, but that is too ambiguous to conclude he is dead in the story. Look at Mance Rayder more closely and you will see that:

1. he wears Targaryan colours

2. plays and sings and knows all the songs from south and north

3. can sweet-talk/sing/fight every wildling leader into submission (leadership skills that are hardly to be expected from a wildling born crow)

4. went to Winterfell twice to see Jon (and king Robert, but it is interesting he does not harbour any resentment towards the king whose wall he intends to attack)

5. spends hours locked with Stannis after being captured. Would Stannis do that if MR was a low-born wildling bastard? Would Stannis hide him in that case? Stannis is a soldier who was trained to obey his elders, be it his brother or a king. He debated whether he should be loyal to Robert or the mad king and decided for the former, because he judged the king to be mad. If Aegon were sane, Stannis wouldn't have followed Robert.

6. Being protected by the red priestess with glamour. Why? She wanted to kill Edric Storm who is a Baratheon by blood and protects this widlling king?

7. MR is educated. He addresses his wife as my lady. He knows about the Horn of Winter. Hardly something one can expect from a widlling bastard turned crow turned king-beyond-the-wall.

I can go on and on … However, please do reject this theory. I'll be happy to discuss it further after book 6.

I'll admit, it DOES seem a bit odd that Mance has acquired so much skill and accomplishments growing up on the Wall and in Wildling territory... And it ALSO seems pretty odd that Rhaegar would be stupid enough to risk death by meeting Robert in single combat when everyone says how much smarter he was than everyone else, not to mention the fact that RR seemed to be pretty low on his priority list of wars to fight.

[Modesty Lannister]

If Mance is Rhaegar, then Rhaegar is even more of a cowardly cunt than I could possibly imagine. He's dead in all his "tragic" splendour.

Why is he cowardly?

[Alliser Trump]

If Mance is Rhaegar, then Rhaegar is even more of a cowardly cunt than I could possibly imagine. He's dead in all his "tragic" splendour.

That's the thing, Rhaegar never seemed to give a crap about glory. Barristan says he was all about duty and he was "single-minded", so to completely shift gears from his prophetic quest to take on an extremely-pissed-off Robert Baratheon in mortal combat just doesn't quite seem like the prudent and intelligent Rhaegar that we've been hearing about this whole time.

[MyLittleFinger]

Why is he cowardly?

In your "He is Mance" argument, he either

1. flees from fighting Robert in the first place despite having numerical advantage in soldiers and his whole dynasty on the line = Coward

2. He somehow survived the Trident and upon hearing of the death of his entire family other than Viserys and the baby he joins the Night's Watch and convinces them he was there since he was a baby (Mance's back story confirmed by other NW members) instead of trying to reach them or try to reveal himself and raise the Targ loyalists (Dorne and Reach primarily) = Coward

3. Is alive and never tries to find out about what happened to that woman he left pregnant in some tower whom he "apparently" loves, nor find out what happened to the freaking child. Sounds like less love and more raper in that case. = Coward

If he is alive his story is about what a fraud and coward he is, not about being the tragic super prince that never got his chance.

[Modesty Lannister]

I'll admit, it DOES seem a bit odd that Mance has acquired so much skill and accomplishments growing up on the Wall and in Wildling territory... And it ALSO seems pretty odd that Rhaegar would be stupid enough to risk death by meeting Robert in single combat when everyone says how much smarter he was than everyone else, not to mention the fact that RR seemend to pretty low on his priority list of wars to fight.

Indeed. I think RT's priority has always been Azor Ahai. All he did, he did in order to fullfill it. He even became a knight because of something he read. He literally said: "It seems I must become a warrior." So, RT is a strategists and he rushes to the Trident like Theon Greyjoy to be hammered down by randy Robert? Please. RT is clever. Also, we still know too little about the Daynes and their involvement in the last chapter of RT's official existence. Why would Ashara Dayne commit suicide? The reason must have been very very serious. Dornishfolk don't give a toss about polygamy, bastards etc. So, there must have been something else. I suspect that the chief silent brother was the man who dressed as Rhaegar at the Trident. But, it is still unclear who he is. Also, by adopting MRs identity, RT has help and guidance of his great-uncle Aemon. It is interesting that the last dying wish of Aemon Targaryan was to hold MRs son. Why? If MR=RT it makes sense. Otherwise, it's non-sensical. I suspect even Ned Stark knew about this ploy, because he said to Cat that the North has nothing to fear when it comes to Mance Rayder. Ned was not stupid, nor arrogant. Any king-beyond-the-wall is a major threat, unless he is your ally. What I think is that tourney of Harrenhall was indeed the place where RT plotted with other high lords to put an end to Aegon's madness, as the mad king suspected. There must have been a plan, but Tywin Lannister screwed everything up by sacking KL. Ned Stark looks like a desperate man who is trying to hold all threads of the plan in hand when it starts to crumble. And it is very GRRM. No matter how clever you are, how strategic, life interferes and screws you.

[Modesty Lannister]

In your "He is Mance" argument, he either

1. flees from fighting Robert in the first place despite having numerical advantage in soldiers and his whole dynasty on the line = Coward

2. He somehow survived the Trident and upon hearing of the death of his entire family other than Viserys and the baby he joins the Night's Watch and convinces them he was there since he was a baby (Mance's back story confirmed by other NW members) instead of trying to reach them or try to reveal himself and raise the Targ loyalists (Dorne and Reach primarily) = Coward

3. Is alive and never tries to find out about what happened to that woman he left pregnant in some tower whom he "apparently" loves, nor find out what happened to the freaking child. Sounds like less love and more raper in that case. = Coward

If he is alive his story is about what a fraud and coward he is, not about being the tragic super prince that never got his chance.

None of the above. See my response to Bling of the North

[Modesty Lannister]

That's the thing, Rhaegar never seemed to give a crap about glory. Barristan says he was all about duty and he was "single-minded", so to completely shift gears from his prophetic quest to take on an extremely-pissed-off Robert Baratheon in mortal combat just doesn't quite seem like the prudent and intelligent Rhaegar that we've been hearing about this whole time.

Indeed. That's the key thing in this saga.

[MyLittleFinger]

None of the above. See my response to Bling of the North

And it is very GRRM. No matter how clever you are, how strategic, life interferes and screws you.

I agree completely. Robert's Hammer did exactly that.

[Modesty Lannister]

And it is very GRRM. No matter how clever you are, how strategic, life interferes and screws you.

I agree completely. Robert's Hammer did exactly that.

This saga is mostly about hidden and false identities, about a search for a true identity. If you want to believe that GRRM's original POV depiction of RR is done and dusted then, please, do. It would be the only story in the saga that does not change in time in terms of us finding more and more facts about it. GRRM's writing is like an onion. Be it a character or a plot, he lets us see only the first layer in the beginning and as the story progresses the layers get peeled off until we get to the crux of the matter. Do you have the same opinion of Jamie Lannister that you had in book 1? I hope not. It is your right to believe RT died at the Trident. However, it goes against his character. I am actually glad for you, because you'll have more thrill in being surprised than I will by the end of this.

[MyLittleFinger]

This saga is mostly about hidden and false identities, about a search for a true identity. If you want to believe that GRRM's original POV depiction of RR is done and dusted then, please, do. It would be the only story in the saga that does not change in time in terms of us finding more and more facts about it. GRRM's writing is like an onion. Be it a character or a plot, he lets us see only the first layer in the beginning and as the story progresses the layers get peeled off until we get to the crux of the matter. Do you have the same opinion of Jamie Lannister that you had in book 1? I hope not. It is your right to believe RT died at the Trident. However, it goes against his character. I am actually glad for you, because you'll have more thrill in being surprised than I will by the end of this.

Well thank you. I shall enjoy harvesting the sorrow of all the crackpots one by one :drool:

[horizon]

The theory that Mance is Rhaegar is interesting. Yet, it is not flawless. I mean Rhaegar's death is described.

But *IF* it is true, then there is an answer on how Eddard would know where to search for Lyanna: Rhaeger told him.

But then the fight at the TOJ does not match.

[Modesty Lannister]

Well thank you. I shall enjoy harvesting the sorrow of all the crackpots one by one :drool:

Until we discuss again. :-) And, since this is a forum where fans discuss various theories, I wonder why you do it if you show no regard for someone else's reasoning. You may not agree, but there is no reason to call it crackpot. I stated many solid arguments. respect people if you want them to respect you.