Is Rhaegar alive?!?

[MyLittleFinger]

Until we discuss again. :-) And, since this is a forum where fans discuss various theories, I wonder why you do it if you show no regard for someone else's reasoning. You may not agree, but there is no reason to call it crackpot. I stated many solid arguments. respect people if you want them to respect you.

Respect is irrelevant, though if you must know, I respect everybody's opinions and beliefs, it doesn't mean I can't laugh and think they're crazy.

[fuem]

Nah buddy he is just Varys just hanging out

[Modesty Lannister]

The theory that Mance is Rhaegar is interesting. Yet, it is not flawless. I mean Rhaegar's death is described.

But *IF* it is true, then there is an answer on how Eddard would know where to search for Lyanna: Rhaeger told him.

But then the fight at the TOJ does not match.

It actually does. Think about it. Barristan Selmy tells us Aerys mistrusted RT. The thought his son was plotting with other lords to overthrow him. That's why he went to Harrenhall. When RT took (abducted or fled with, irrelevant for this argument) Lyanna Stark to ToJ, Aerys sent King's Guard to find him and bring him back to KL, which he did. King's Guard cannot follow the Crown Prince's orders. Only the orders of the King. And if Aeryswanted to insure RT obedience, what would be a better way than holding Lyanna hostage in ToJ. The only error RT made is that he forced the fulfilment of the AA prophecy. Prophecies cannot be forced. They happen. It's hubris to force them. So, as Dany must go back to go forward, must go east to go west, her brother must go back to go forward, must go north to go south, must die to live, must lose to win.

Also, what is described is a death of a man wearing Rhaegar's armour. No one saw his face. Everybody was snatching rubies. Later, we see MR die, yet he lives. If that's not a hint, nothing is. Smoke and mirrors. Also, GRRM never talks about what Robert did with Rhaegar's body. Not in his books. RB allegedly hated RT. He defeated him. Would he just leave his body to rot? Seems unlikely. Yet, no mention of that what-so-ever.

[joluoto2]

Indeed. I think RT's priority has always been Azor Ahai. All he did, he did in order to fullfill it. He even became a knight because of something he read. He literally said: "It seems I must become a warrior." So, RT is a strategists and he rushes to the Trident like Theon Greyjoy to be hammered down by randy Robert? Please. RT is clever. Also, we still know too little about the Daynes and their involvement in the last chapter of RT's official existence. Why would Ashara Dayne commit suicide? The reason must have been very very serious. Dornishfolk don't give a toss about polygamy, bastards etc. So, there must have been something else. I suspect that the chief silent brother was the man who dressed as Rhaegar at the Trident. But, it is still unclear who he is. Also, by adopting MRs identity, RT has help and guidance of his great-uncle Aemon. It is interesting that the last dying wish of Aemon Targaryan was to hold MRs son. Why? If MR=RT it makes sense. Otherwise, it's non-sensical. I suspect even Ned Stark knew about this ploy, because he said to Cat that the North has nothing to fear when it comes to Mance Rayder. Ned was not stupid, nor arrogant. Any king-beyond-the-wall is a major threat, unless he is your ally. What I think is that tourney of Harrenhall was indeed the place where RT plotted with other high lords to put an end to Aegon's madness, as the mad king suspected. There must have been a plan, but Tywin Lannister screwed everything up by sacking KL. Ned Stark looks like a desperate man who is trying to hold all threads of the plan in hand when it starts to crumble. And it is very GRRM. No matter how clever you are, how strategic, life interferes and screws you.

a) Mance doesn't look like Rhaegar at all

b ) Him being raise at the Wall is known both at the Wall and among the Wildlings

c) You're making Ned into a plotter, which he's not.

d) Why in 7 Hells would Rhaegar want to be a part of the end of the Targaryen line

e) The slaughter at the Tower of Joy. Clearly the Kingsguard were ordered to kill Ned and his companions, or whoever came for Lyanna

f) If there was an alliance between Ned and Mance, why did Mance attack the Wall?

g) I don't get the Rhaegar love at all. He cause the downfall of his dynasty by going after a teenager he had the hots for. A teenager who happened to be the daughter of a Great Lord, and bethrothed to another.

h) Your pints about Dorne makes NO SENSE. You forget Elia and her children were Aerys' hostages to get Dorne into the fight. Which means Dorne probably had decided to sit this one out, probably because they were unhappy with Elia being "put aside".

[-Ghost-]

GRRM has said that Rhaegar was cremated. Just because you dont like the answer doesnt make it not true.

[Modesty Lannister]

a) Mance doesn't look like Rhaegar at all

True. Because he is wearing a glamour or dying his hair. If Sansa does it to hide herself, why is it unimaginable for RT? On the Wall and beyond it no one knows how RT looks like.

b ) Him being raise at the Wall is known both at the Wall and among the Wildlings

Who lived long enough to confirm this? Maester Aemon.

c) You're making Ned into a plotter, which he's not.

If Ned is not a plotter, why is he so guilt ridden? Because he allegedly sired a bastard? In a society where bastards are a norm and he spent one night with his wife before heading for a battle? Why is he so obsessed with his sister's death? Why does he never speak against RT, not even when RB rants about how he hates him? Why does he think MR poses no threat to the North? In my theory, all is explained and consistently with Ned's character. His main duty is to the North and its defence. If RT turned to MR wants to protect the North (and he does), it overrides Ned's love for Robert as a friend.

d) Why in 7 Hells would Rhaegar want to be a part of the end of the Targaryen line

Why do you think that? Turning into MR, fulfilling the prophecy and defeating the White Walkers has nothing to do with the end of the line. So far, we know MR has a son by Dalla. We suspect Jon is RT's son. GRRM gives us young Griff as a possible Aegon VI. If RT=MR that makes three sons. Not the end of the line. And if MR=RT is to defeat White Walkers and reveal himself, who would oppose his comeback?

e) The slaughter at the Tower of Joy. Clearly the Kingsguard were ordered to kill Ned and his companions, or whoever came for Lyanna

I explained this in my earlier post

f) If there was an alliance between Ned and Mance, why did Mance attack the Wall?

GRRM keeps repeating that the Wall is as strong as the men who guard it. Think about that in a strategic way. We can discuss it further, but I don't want to overburden this post.

g) I don't get the Rhaegar love at all. He cause the downfall of his dynasty by going after a teenager he had the hots for. A teenager who happened to be the daughter of a Great Lord, and bethrothed to another.

RT is making a child with Lyanna in order to fulfil ASOIAF. I does not have to be love. The man is a strategist. His ultimate goal is AA prophecy fulfilment.

h) Your pints about Dorne makes NO SENSE. You forget Elia and her children were Aerys' hostages to get Dorne into the fight. Which means Dorne probably had decided to sit this one out, probably because they were unhappy with Elia being "put aside".

I'm not talking about Dorne, but the Daynes. Your argument about Elia stands.

[Modesty Lannister]

GRRM has said that Rhaegar was cremated. Just because you dont like the answer doesnt make it not true.

Not in the books. GRRM was asked about RT's funeral and answered that RT is cremated as all Targs do. He never said it happened in the books yet. Also, MR was burned at the stake. Everyone saw it. Yet, he wasn't.

[Viking]

Rhaegar and Mance share the following attributes

Same age, same height, same body size, same interest in music, same interest in prophecy, same skill apparently unique skill set, same favourite colours and most people think they are dead. The main difference is hair color and eye color.

I am going to propose a narrative of how I think history unfolded showing how certain events in the book contribute to foreshadowing the obstacles to the R=M hypothesis, how these events tie together otherwise unrelated events in the books and how this weaves a considerable number of loose threads together to form a coherent whole.

The assumptions you need to make to have this narrative work are

1) That there is a prophecy which is know to the initiated.

2) That kinds of events can happen again.

Ok, the narrative is as follows.

Young Rhaegar, bookish and nerdy, reads up on his prophecy and finds something important. Personally I think this prophecy also explains Aerys' madness since it is quite possible that both were working to fulfil it at the time, leading (unwittingly) to Roberts Rebellion. Once he reads the prophecy he has a profound change of lifestyle, he decides to learn how to fight.

In apparent fulfilment of the prophecy he marries Elia of Dorne. Which would be the first marriage of a Targaryen in the line of succession to a non-Targaryen since Dorne was brought into the kingdom and before that since Aegon's Conquest. I think he did this in pursuit of the prophecy. He then corresponds with Maester Aemon at the wall thinking his son by Elia is the PWP. I think Aemon corrected his mis-understanding of the prophecy with books from his library.

Later at the tourney at Harrenhall Rhaegar fights with an unprecented ferocity and skill to become champion letting him bestow the title of queen of love and beauty on Lyanna, not his wife. Earlier in the tourney the Knight of the Laughing tree bests a few minor nobles and Rhaegars squire promises to uncover the secret identity. I think the squire uncovers the identity, tells Rhaegar who then realizes what the prophecies really mean. He then determines to win the tourney and woo Lyanna. Lyannas symbol of the blue flower which appears in the house of the undying where it breaks the wall is probably related to the prophecy.

Not being able to plausibly break the engagement Lyanna already had with Robert he kidnaps her. Meanwhile the mad king, in trying to fulfil his end of the prophecy seeks to revive dragons, by, if necessary burning all of kings landing with dragon eggs hoping to find a blood of the dragon in fleabottom or something. At this point Roberts Rebellion breaks out. This is a minor inconvenience for Rhaegar who is away at the Tower of Joy trying to fulfil a prophecy with Lyanna. This is why Aerys bungles the war and hires and fires Hands.

With Lyanna pregnant and the prophecy apparently being fulfilled, Rhaegar returns. He then departs to lead the army against the nuisance Robert telling Jamie that everything will be different, since now there is no need to burn the city to fulfil the prophecy. He leaves Jamie as hostage to Tywins loyalty, leave his 3 best white cloak friends at the TOJ with the PWP, takes the other 3 white cloaks to the Ruby ford where he is beaten by Robert.

Tyrion fights in a battle at almost the same location where he is knocked out, left for dead and still alive. I think the same thing happened to Rhaegar. Covered in mud his armour, now without the rubies left him looking like any other dead body. Only he was without his heraldry. The Hound allegedly floated down the river after his death where he was saved at the silent isle. I think this happened to Rhaegar too. He was badly injured and by the time he recovered he entered a new world with Robert on the throne, his family dead, Lyanna dead and apparently no hope of him fulfilling he prophecy. He then goes into hiding at the wall where his uncle aemon helps him hide his identity to keep him safe from Robert's wrath along with Jeor Mormont and Qorin Half Hand (and possibly others).

At this point he has a new, fake name, is hiding his identity behind a disguise, potentially a faceless man style diguise he might have learned about from his booklearning. He might also have travelled to Essos after leaving the Nights Watch. He then goes to fulfil the rest of the prophecy, or at least the bits he can contribute to the prophecy. Failing to find the horn of joramund (which sam finds at the fist of the first men), he tries to save the wildlings from the coming catastrophy by getting them across the wall. He does this because he fails to contact Mormont before the great ranging is destroyed at the fist. He then lets Jon keep his sword and protect his half brother possibly as a test of the prophecy.

An interesting consequence of this is that the assassination attempt on Bran may have been prophecy related. Brans paralyzation may be in the prophecies and given the importance of understanding prophecy burning the library might not just have been a diversion, it might have been an attempt to burn books with information on the prophecy, making the person who hired the assassin possibly an agent of the others or the evil god opposing Ryhllor.

Mance's trip to Winterfell during Roberts visit may have have many many more reasons. Including a visit to Lyannas Tomb which would have been unsealed for Roberts visit and a look at Jon Snow to confirm he was Lyannas son (by looking at his face) to reassure him that the prophecy was valid, possibly after hearing from Ben-Jen Stark that Jon looked like Lyanna.

Jon says in AFFC Ch.5 "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own". Knowing what we know about R+L=J this suddenly becomes relevant. Also, Mance takes on the name Able, an anagram of Bale, who famously stole the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell and returned her with a son. Which, is amazing relevat if Jon is Lyannas son by Rhaegar and Rhaegar is Mance.

This all assumes that Rhaegar survived the battle like Tyrion, survived the river like The Hound,could change his appearance as Jaqen H'Gar and could have his death faked like Mance Rayder. That Martin's comment on how Rhaegar was cremated is misleading.

I'm just glad that more people are joining me in this hypothesis.

[Chebyshov]

Except that GRRM confirmed he's dead.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Forum_Chat

"Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens."

[Modesty Lannister]

Rhaegar and Mance share the following attributes

Same age, same height, same body size, same interest in music, same interest in prophecy, same skill apparently unique skill set, same favourite colours and most people think they are dead. The main difference is hair color and eye color.

I am going to propose a narrative of how I think history unfolded showing how certain events in the book contribute to foreshadowing the obstacles to the R=M hypothesis, how these events tie together otherwise unrelated events in the books and how this weaves a considerable number of loose threads together to form a coherent whole.

The assumptions you need to make to have this narrative work are

1) That there is a prophecy which is know to the initiated.

2) That kinds of events can happen again.

Ok, the narrative is as follows.

Young Rhaegar, bookish and nerdy, reads up on his prophecy and finds something important. Personally I think this prophecy also explains Aerys' madness since it is quite possible that both were working to fulfil it at the time, leading (unwittingly) to Roberts Rebellion. Once he reads the prophecy he has a profound change of lifestyle, he decides to learn how to fight.

In apparent fulfilment of the prophecy he marries Elia of Dorne. Which would be the first marriage of a Targaryen in the line of succession to a non-Targaryen since Dorne was brought into the kingdom and before that since Aegon's Conquest. I think he did this in pursuit of the prophecy. He then corresponds with Maester Aemon at the wall thinking his son by Elia is the PWP. I think Aemon corrected his mis-understanding of the prophecy with books from his library.

Later at the tourney at Harrenhall Rhaegar fights with an unprecented ferocity and skill to become champion letting him bestow the title of queen of love and beauty on Lyanna, not his wife. Earlier in the tourney the Knight of the Laughing tree bests a few minor nobles and Rhaegars squire promises to uncover the secret identity. I think the squire uncovers the identity, tells Rhaegar who then realizes what the prophecies really mean. He then determines to win the tourney and woo Lyanna. Lyannas symbol of the blue flower which appears in the house of the undying where it breaks the wall is probably related to the prophecy.

Not being able to plausibly break the engagement Lyanna already had with Robert he kidnaps her. Meanwhile the mad king, in trying to fulfil his end of the prophecy seeks to revive dragons, by, if necessary burning all of kings landing with dragon eggs hoping to find a blood of the dragon in fleabottom or something. At this point Roberts Rebellion breaks out. This is a minor inconvenience for Rhaegar who is away at the Tower of Joy trying to fulfil a prophecy with Lyanna. This is why Aerys bungles the war and hires and fires Hands.

With Lyanna pregnant and the prophecy apparently being fulfilled, Rhaegar returns. He then departs to lead the army against the nuisance Robert telling Jamie that everything will be different, since now there is no need to burn the city to fulfil the prophecy. He leaves Jamie as hostage to Tywins loyalty, leave his 3 best white cloak friends at the TOJ with the PWP, takes the other 3 white cloaks to the Ruby ford where he is beaten by Robert.

Tyrion fights in a battle at almost the same location where he is knocked out, left for dead and still alive. I think the same thing happened to Rhaegar. Covered in mud his armour, now without the rubies left him looking like any other dead body. Only he was without his heraldry. The Hound allegedly floated down the river after his death where he was saved at the silent isle. I think this happened to Rhaegar too. He was badly injured and by the time he recovered he entered a new world with Robert on the throne, his family dead, Lyanna dead and apparently no hope of him fulfilling he prophecy. He then goes into hiding at the wall where his uncle aemon helps him hide his identity to keep him safe from Robert's wrath along with Jeor Mormont and Qorin Half Hand (and possibly others).

At this point he has a new, fake name, is hiding his identity behind a disguise, potentially a faceless man style diguise he might have learned about from his booklearning. He might also have travelled to Essos after leaving the Nights Watch. He then goes to fulfil the rest of the prophecy, or at least the bits he can contribute to the prophecy. Failing to find the horn of joramund (which sam finds at the fist of the first men), he tries to save the wildlings from the coming catastrophy by getting them across the wall. He does this because he fails to contact Mormont before the great ranging is destroyed at the fist. He then lets Jon keep his sword and protect his half brother possibly as a test of the prophecy.

An interesting consequence of this is that the assassination attempt on Bran may have been prophecy related. Brans paralyzation may be in the prophecies and given the importance of understanding prophecy burning the library might not just have been a diversion, it might have been an attempt to burn books with information on the prophecy, making the person who hired the assassin possibly an agent of the others or the evil god opposing Ryhllor.

Mance's trip to Winterfell during Roberts visit may have have many many more reasons. Including a visit to Lyannas Tomb which would have been unsealed for Roberts visit and a look at Jon Snow to confirm he was Lyannas son (by looking at his face) to reassure him that the prophecy was valid, possibly after hearing from Ben-Jen Stark that Jon looked like Lyanna.

Jon says in AFFC Ch.5 "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own". Knowing what we know about R+L=J this suddenly becomes relevant. Also, Mance takes on the name Able, an anagram of Bale, who famously stole the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell and returned her with a son. Which, is amazing relevat if Jon is Lyannas son by Rhaegar and Rhaegar is Mance.

This all assumes that Rhaegar survived the battle like Tyrion, survived the river like The Hound,could change his appearance as Jaqen H'Gar and could have his death faked like Mance Rayder. That Martin's comment on how Rhaegar was cremated is misleading.

I'm just glad that more people are joining me in this hypothesis.

I agree with your basic story outline, but not with some of the details. As for GRRM famous RT was cremated quote, see the actual chat:

Q: Who recovered Rhaegar's corpse (if anyone did it) and where was he buried (if he was buried)?

GRRM: Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens. This has been fun, but time is passing and I have another long day tomorrow, and so I´m going to need to wind this up. Three more questions, and let´s close.

I can only conclude that GRRM avoided the answer.

[Viking]

I agree with your basic story outline, but not about some of the details. As for GRRM famous RT was cremated quote, see the actual chat above in my post.

Which details are, eh, insufficient? I'm always looking to improve.

My earliest version of the Mance=Rhaegar theory from 2011 has Jon Connington donning Rhaegar's armor for the battle of the trident, rather than dying in exile. But then ADWD came out and force me to change it to Rhaegar washing up on the silent isle.

[Ygrain]

I agree with your basic story outline, but not with some of the details. As for GRRM famous RT was cremated quote, see the actual chat:

Q: Who recovered Rhaegar's corpse (if anyone did it) and where was he buried (if he was buried)?

GRRM: Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens. This has been fun, but time is passing and I have another long day tomorrow, and so I´m going to need to wind this up. Three more questions, and let´s close.

I can only conclude that GRRM avoided the answer.

He didn't provide the required information but I don't see how his answer might be interpreted in any other way but that Rhaegar is dead.

[Ronuja]

I hope not. The part where Jorah says "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died." is one of my favorite quotes from the series.

[Modesty Lannister]

I hope not. The part where Jorah says "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died." is one of my favorite quotes from the series.

I agree it's a great quote, but we don't know if Jorah ever met Rhaegar. He is certainly not someone who would know about any secret plot construed by Rhaegar. He is just repeating the official version known in Westeros.

[Light a wight tonight]

Except that GRRM confirmed he's dead.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Forum_Chat

"Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens."

Meaning that only live Targs are fireproof?

This is a joke.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Well, Mel did burn Mance at a certain point, didn't she? :p

[Metopheles]

Just throwing my hat in here :

It's not Asoiaf, but it's certainly a major inspiration and was from the time the writing process started, so hear me out.

Obi Wan, now "dead" and known as Ben tells Luke, the fostered away child, that he knew his father and that his father was killed by a young dark knight named Darth Vader. The next story ends with the greatest plot twist till then :

"No, I am your father."

So Ben lied. Did he ?

"What I told you, was true ...from a certain point of view.

You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

Rhaegar is dead as in no longer being known under this name, nor being the crown prince. But he continued his quest. And that would be fitting with Ned telling Jon to go to the NW, even though he himself would never go there.

This would even mirror the Bael the Bard story even more. Jon setting out to unknowingly kill his father, twice, but he was stopped, thankfully.

That is why I am 100% sure that Mance Rayder is indeed Rhaegar. And I was sure of that way before Dance. Melisandre sparing him proves it. I don't say she knows, but her flames made her.

Furthermore, give this a thought:

"Mance Rayder was ..once Rhaegar"

phonetically aesthetic and a perfect fit for a perfect plot twist.

[Modesty Lannister]

Just throwing my hat in here :

It's not Asoiaf, but it's certainly a major inspiration and was from the time the writing process started, so hear me out.

Obi Wan, now "dead" and known as Ben tells Luke, the fostered away child, that he knew his father and that his father was killed by a young dark knight named Darth Vader. The next story ends with the greatest plot twist till then :

"No, I am your father."

So Ben lied. Did he ?

"What I told you, was true ...from a certain point of view.

You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

Rhaegar is dead as in no longer being known under this name, nor being the crown prince. But he continued his quest. And that would be fitting with Ned telling Jon to go to the NW, even though he himself would never go there.

This would even mirror the Bael the Bard story even more. Jon setting out to unknowingly kill his father, twice, but he was stopped, thankfully.

That is why I am 100% sure that Mance Rayder is indeed Rhaegar. And I was sure of that way before Dance. Melisandre sparing him proves it. I don't say she knows, but her flames made her.

Furthermore, give this a thought:

"Mance Rayder was ..once Rhaegar"

phonetically aesthetic and a perfect fit for a perfect plot twist.

Exactly. Thank you. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mance Rayder turns out to be Prince Rhaegar in the old tongue. That would be just a perfect irony. No one hides as well as in plain view.

[Metopheles]

Exactly. Thank you. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mance Rayder turns out to be Prince Rhaegar in the old tongue. That would be just a perfect irony. No one hides as well as in plain view.

You are the second person on this forum that agreed with this, thank you !

Additionally : Abel sang "The Northeners wife" instead of Dornishman's at WF, sure he meant Ramsay, but it also fits perfectly with Rhaegar.

And: Mance, a mancer, a necromancer or romancer is always someone who makes something become alive, raise from the dead. or divination. Just like Rhaegar who was fond of prophecies.

In french it is a puppet. a fake. a fake identity

[Viking]

Exactly. Thank you. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mance Rayder turns out to be Prince Rhaegar in the old tongue. That would be just a perfect irony. No one hides as well as in plain view.

Doesn't he get called "your mance" at some point?