Is Rhaegar alive?!?

[Viking]

The difference being that the MR=RT theory makes too many assumptions without any textual evidence to back it up. The very basis of the theory is that Rhaegar convinced a Person X to wear a glamour, go to the Trident and face off against the rebel forces. Rhaegar then wears a glamour or disguises himself and assumes the Mance Raydar identity, heads north to The Wall and joins the NW. Is there a shred of textual evidence to support this claim?

I'm not saying he wore a glamour like Modesty, I'm suggesting he was at the trident, was brutally injured but survived like Tyrion did at the Green Fork and then floated down river to the Silent Isle like The Hound did.

Rubies do suggest deception and glamours being used, so I'm open to somebody else wearing the armor, Patroclus style. He doesn't really need the glamour to color his hair.

Personally I think Martin learned from R+L=J that he needed to be more subtle.

[Metopheles]

You cannot base an argument on something that may or may not appear in future books.

What I would like to know is how does the red and black cloak point to Mance being Rhaegar. Mance did not have that particular cloak all along. According to Mance a wilding woman mended his NW cloak with scarlet silk from Asshai. It is equally possible that the cloak held sentimental value to him since that woman nursed him back to health and the scarlet silk was the greatest treasure she had yet she gifted it to him.

Furthermore the example I used in my previous post is the starting point of this theory yet there is nothing in the existing text that points toward it. Without at least some textual evidence to support the starting point this theory does not even get off the ground.

I say the whole backstory of Mance is a collective lie from Aemon Qhorin and possibly the LC before Mormont (Mormont was not at the Wall when Mance was) This also explains why Qhorin selected Jon, who was no more than a steward for the mission to assassinate Mance.

My point about the cloak is that 1. Scarlet silk from Asshai beyond the wall, owned by a poor woman...how does she know of Asshai and that it was from Asshai and why would a ship from Asshai end up on this side of Westeros ?

The second thing : the number three. This is what sells it to me. Three red pieces in a black cloak. Like in a standard Targ cloak. Black with a three headed dragon.

Of course the theory about Mance being Rhaegar and having lied about his backstory requires to deny his story and assume it is a lie. It's the same thing we do when acceptin R+L=J. We take for granted that Neddard lied about Jon. That doesn't seem to hurt, why then here?

[Metopheles]

Personally I think Martin learned from R+L=J that he needed to be more subtle.

ha. That. :D

[Viking]

Well, Mance's backstory is that he was a wildling raised by the nights watch. Mance would have existed and Rhaegar would have replaced him, either as a black brother or adopting his name in the process of escaping north.

[Consigliere]

I'm not saying he wore a glamour like Modesty, I'm suggesting he was at the trident, was brutally injured but survived like Tyrion did at the Green Fork and then floated down river to the Silent Isle like The Hound did.

Rubies do suggest deception and glamours being used, so I'm open to somebody else wearing the armor, Patroclus style. He doesn't really need the glamour to color his hair.

Personally I think Martin learned from R+L=J that he needed to be more subtle.

Okay your starting point is different from what I have previously read about the theory. What I want to ask is whether there is any textual support for this or is it an assumption without evidence? As I've said in my previous post, if the starting point has no clues pointing towards it then the theory does not even get off the ground. I am not asking for concrete evidence here just something in the text that suggests this could have happened.

From the text we have perhaps two eyewitness accounts that say Rhaegar died.

From Ned:

“When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.”

From Jorah:

“Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”

This quote from Barristan suggests that Jorah was present at the Trident:

“It may be that I must die a traitor’s death,” Ser Barristan said. “If so, I should not die alone. Before I took Robert’s pardon I fought against him on the Trident. You were on the other side of that battle, Mormont, were you not”

I would also like to throw out an assumption. Given Robert's hatred of Rhaegar isn't is plausible that Robert would have made certain that Rhaegar was dead (removing his helmet and such).

[Viking]

Yes, we as readers are encouraged to think that Rhaegar is dead. I agree, I also think there are enough hints that he might be alive to consider the hypothesis.

I don't think Robert would have made certain of Rhaegar's body, he was badly injured himself, that is why he stayed behind while Ned moved on Kings Landing alone.

[Viking]

Regarding Winds of Winter, I think there might be a few events we would expect to happen if Mance Rhaegar is a viable hypothesis.

- he will either know that Jeyne Poole isn't Arya or he will be silent on the issue. Why? He would have recognized Lyanna's features on Arya's face.

- he will not make any faux pas with regards to westerosi custom and tradition, except on purpose

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Okay your starting point is different from what I have previously read about the theory. What I want to ask is whether there is any textual support for this or is it an assumption without evidence? As I've said in my previous post, if the starting point has no clues pointing towards it then the theory does not even get off the ground. I am not asking for concrete evidence here just something in the text that suggests this could have happened.

From the text we have perhaps two eyewitness accounts that say Rhaegar died.

From Ned:

“When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.”

From Jorah:

“Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”

This quote from Barristan suggests that Jorah was present at the Trident:

“It may be that I must die a traitor’s death,” Ser Barristan said. “If so, I should not die alone. Before I took Robert’s pardon I fought against him on the Trident. You were on the other side of that battle, Mormont, were you not”

I would also like to throw out an assumption. Given Robert's hatred of Rhaegar isn't is plausible that Robert would have made certain that Rhaegar was dead (removing his helmet and such).

How dare you bring proof and facts instead of speculation...all these people just forgot to check if it was him.

[Metopheles]

Maybe Robert was afraid.. What if, with half a thousand bystanders, it would come out that the one inside was not Rhaegar ? Now that would be a sight. I think he smashed in his head, but this detail is kept from Daenerys, and to others it would be obvious and not needed to tell, that Rob smashed the skull.

[Metopheles]

This quote from Barristan suggests that Jorah was present at the Trident:

“It may be that I must die a traitor’s death,” Ser Barristan said. “If so, I should not die alone. Before I took Robert’s pardon I fought against him on the Trident. You were on the other side of that battle, Mormont, were you not”

page and book ?

Can't figure where he said that.

[Consigliere]

I say the whole backstory of Mance is a collective lie from Aemon Qhorin and possibly the LC before Mormont (Mormont was not at the Wall when Mance was) This also explains why Qhorin selected Jon, who was no more than a steward for the mission to assassinate Mance.

As I've been saying there are too many blind assumptions one must make for this theory to ring plausible. Is there anything to suggest that Qhorin and Aemon were lying?

My point about the cloak is that 1. Scarlet silk from Asshai beyond the wall, owned by a poor woman...how does she know of Asshai and that it was from Asshai and why would a ship from Asshai end up on this side of Westeros ?

Good point. According to Mance though the woman's grandmother had pulled it from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. Should I now assume that Mance was lying?

The second thing : the number three. This is what sells it to me. Three red pieces in a black cloak. Like in a standard Targ cloak. Black with a three headed dragon.

This is the kind of evidence I've been asking for. It is plausible that the three red strips on black could potentially point to Mance having some sort of Targ connection.

Of course the theory about Mance being Rhaegar and having lied about his backstory requires to deny his story and assume it is a lie. It's the same thing we do when acceptin R+L=J. We take for granted that Neddard lied about Jon. That doesn't seem to hurt, why then here?

I disagree that it is the same sort of thing like R+L=J. With Ned there are clues pointing to him not telling the whole truth such as referring to Jon as "my blood" and not "my son". His chat with Cersei where he thinks about his children but excludes Jon in that thought. Is there anything like that or similar wrt this theory?

[Boarsbane]

Maybe Robert was afraid.. What if, with half a thousand bystanders, it would come out that the one inside was not Rhaegar ? Now that would be a sight.

They would probably think to themselves "Wow, this coward sends someone off in his armor to fight his war and die for him. Why am I fighting for him again?" Either way it accomplishes the same thing.

[Metopheles]

As I've been saying there are too many blind assumptions one must make for this theory to ring plausible. Is there anything to suggest that Qhorin and Aemon were lying?

Good point. According to Mance though the woman's grandmother had pulled it from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. Should I now assume that Mance was lying?

This is the kind of evidence I've been asking for. It is plausible that the three red strips on black could potentially point to Mance having some sort of Targ connection.

I disagree that it is the same sort of thing like R+L=J. With Ned there are clues pointing to him not telling the whole truth such as referring to Jon as "my blood" and not "my son". His chat with Cersei where he thinks about his children but excludes Jon in that thought. Is there anything like that or similar wrt this theory?

Aemon would certainly lie to protect his only left kin. Qhorin.. don't know much about him, do we..

I think the Scarlet Silk of Asshai is made to show us that is a lie. Why is Jon such a fool and goes "uh he knows music" but never "uh asshai, here?"

How in the world and especially why in the world would a ship from Asshai end up up there ? There is no port and no nobles to buy silk so valuable.

Then again, you are right in every point. Now stands arguments and assumptions against arguments and assumptions. I suggest you should reread major Mance scene with the idea that he is Rhaegar. Because then you might believe it.

Like with any film that had a twist, the next time you see the details more clearly.

[Consigliere]

I don't think Robert would have made certain of Rhaegar's body, he was badly injured himself, that is why he stayed behind while Ned moved on Kings Landing alone.

We don't know how seriously wounded Robert was. What we do know, according to Ned, is that Robert sent his own maester to attend to Barristan who was seriously wounded.

[Metopheles]

They would probably think to themselves "Wow, this coward sends someone off in his armor to fight his war and die for him. Why am I fighting for him again?" Either way it accomplishes the same thing.

No, they would laugh at the usurper. Unable to kill anyone. His brother failed to get Viserys Dany and Rhaella, and he needed Jaime to get near Aerys, and then he is unable to kill the one who made the war become a thing. No one would laugh at the prince for using a double. And even if, Robert would still be the one who killed only a double, not the prince.

[johndance]

If R+L=J is true, and Ned knows it and thinks the best thing would be to send Jon to the Wall, to destroy his claim, then Ned should be resurrected by Thoros and then burned by Melisandre.

Because this would make Ned the single most awful person in the history of literature. A man who promises to save his sister's son, the prince, and sends him to the doom of this claim. No, now that is a son of a bitch then. Just saying. Would you like that as an outcome at the end ? Because for now, this is it. Ned send the prince to destroy his claim. The only thing that would set it right that Ned send him there, would be so that he meets his true father.

Single most awful person in history of literature haha a BIT extreme. I don't quite understand why this would make Ned a bad person. Jon WANTS to go to the wall. All Ned does is say ok you can go. The perk is now Jon won't be able to claim anything from his Targ 'rights'. He keeps his promise to Lyana. This makes his the worst person in literature how???

I just can't get on board with Ned sending him to the NW to meet his 'father'. It wasn't even Ned's idea for Jon to go to the wall. Plus, why would Ned expect Jon to ever meet Mance if he joined the NW? Mance is the king beyond the wall miles and miles north of the wall. How many members of the NW have actually seen or spoken to Mance since he left to be kbtw? Ned isn't dumb. He would have known the chance of Jon and Mance actually crossing paths were extremely small. Doesn't add up.

[Boarsbane]

No, they would laugh at the usurper. Unable to kill anyone. His brother failed to get Viserys Dany and Rhaella, and he needed Jaime to get near Aerys, and then he is unable to kill the one who made the war become a thing. No one would laugh at the prince for using a double. And even if, Robert would still be the one who killed only a double, not the prince.

I can't tell if you are trolling or not. Stannis goes after Viserys, Rhaelle and Dany well after the Trident and Jaime kills Aerys after the Trident. The men aren't going to be thinking about those things because they haven't even happened yet. They aren't going to laugh at the prince, but they are going to think he is a coward.

[Metopheles]

Single most awful person in history of literature haha a BIT extreme. I don't quite understand why this would make Ned a bad person. Jon WANTS to go to the wall. All Ned does is say ok you can go. The perk is now Jon won't be able to claim anything from his Targ 'rights'. He keeps his promise to Lyana. This makes his the worst person in literature how???

I just can't get on board with Ned sending him to the NW to meet his 'father'. It wasn't even Ned's idea for Jon to go to the wall. Plus, why would Ned expect Jon to ever meet Mance if he joined the NW? Mance is the king beyond the wall miles and miles north of the wall. How many members of the NW have actually seen or spoken to Mance since he left to be kbtw? Ned isn't dumb. He would have known the chance of Jon and Mance actually crossing paths were extremely small. Doesn't add up.

He wants to go there because Ned made him want that. He raised him after all. A good father who wants his child or nephew to become something, doesn't simply send him into prison/exile. Especially one where he can never have sexual experiences or take a claim he has.

So Ned denying Jon these things, but saying of himself that he is a good person and great in doing this, that makes him the single most awful person. from my perspective.

[Consigliere]

Aemon would certainly lie to protect his only left kin. Qhorin.. don't know much about him, do we..

Yes we don't know much about Qhorin. Aemon, otoh, I am not so sure he would lie like that. Especially after that speech he gives Jon in Game where he talks about how his vows were tested and each time he chose to stay loyal to his vows.

I think the Scarlet Silk of Asshai is made to show us that is a lie. Why is Jon such a fool and goes "uh he knows music" but never "uh asshai, here?"

How in the world and especially why in the world would a ship from Asshai end up up there ? There is no port and no nobles to buy silk so valuable.

According to Mance it was a wreckage of a cog that washed up on the Frozen Shore.

I suggest you should reread major Mance scene with the idea that he is Rhaegar. Because then you might believe it.

Like with any film that had a twist, the next time you see the details more clearly.

I'm not sure how wise that would be. In my personal opinion if one is predisposed to a particular idea then one tends to twist the narrative in order to fit that particular predisposition.

[Modesty Lannister]

I'm not saying he wore a glamour like Modesty, I'm suggesting he was at the trident, was brutally injured but survived like Tyrion did at the Green Fork and then floated down river to the Silent Isle like The Hound did.

Rubies do suggest deception and glamours being used, so I'm open to somebody else wearing the armor, Patroclus style. He doesn't really need the glamour to color his hair.

Personally I think Martin learned from R+L=J that he needed to be more subtle.

I have a whole post devoted to various ways RT may have used and is using to disguise himself. And the concept of faking one's own death is so new in history of literature that one cannot possibly wrap one's mind around it. The problem with you people is that you do not read other people's posts. Do you want a DNA of RT beyond the wall? Well, go and get it. The whole MR=RT theory is based on the text and you would know it if you bother to read this thread through. This is not a forum, it's a waste of time.