Is Rhaegar alive?!?

[FittleLinger]

Actually he is seen drinking, eating, and raping at several points, so there goes that theory.

“Qyburn pulled a roll of parchment from his sleeve. Though he wore maester’s robes, there was no chain about his neck; it was whispered that he had lost it for dabbling in necromancy.”

Or if you prefer more official, from the "Kings and their court" section:

“QYBURN, a chainless maester and sometime necromancer, his healer,”

Got anything else you want shot down?

Edit: Gregor is also noted with his urine being "clouded with pus." So we know that Gregor pisses in addition to eating, drinking, and raping.

Yeah, there's also zero evidence that Alleras is Sarella. Except for being feminine, the name is backwards, Sarella is in Oldtown "playing a game", and the matching skin color.

But it can totally be someone else as it's not proved, so that makes it as likely as Mance = Rhaegar :dunno:

[johndance]

Rhaegar read in his books that he had to be a knight and a wildling before faking his death on the Trident. As you can clearly see, the proof is in the text.

Huh? I am not exactly sure what this even means. Could you elaborate on this? How is this any sort of proof? There is clear contextual evidence that Mance has been heavily intwined in the NW since he was a child and is now the KBTW. Where is the contextual evidence questioning this to be fact?

[Universal Sword Donor]

Yeah, there's also zero evidence that Alleras is Sarella. Except for being feminine, the name is backwards, Sarella is in Oldtown "playing a game", and the matching skin color.

But it can totally be someone else as it's not proved, so that makes it as likely as Mance = Rhaegar :dunno:

Mance = Rhaegar = Gerion = Ned

It makes a lot more sense when you view it from that angle.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Huh? I am not exactly sure what this even means. Could you elaborate on this? How is this any sort of proof? There is clear contextual evidence that Mance has been heavily intwined in the NW since he was a child and is now the KBTW. Where is the contextual evidence questioning this to be fact?

Satire or Sarcasm. Take your pick. I was mimicking a certain style prevalent in this thread. The proof is in the thread!

[Modesty Lannister]

Because he hasn't lied about anything else.

Please provide the entire quote then. I'm sure you have it and the SSM page is clearly hiding it in its entirety. Nothing else in the world would make sense other than Rhaegar being alive and Westeros.org lying about it.

I've already done it on this thread.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I've already done it on this thread.

Humor or at least tell me which page to find it on. I've been through 2/3 of the thread at least while posting and have yet to see it.

[Modesty Lannister]

I can only speak for myself, but I do not bring negative energy upon you. I am willing to entertain this thought, but this has to be grounded on some foundation. As I said before, I accept right away that there is more to Mance than we know right now.

If what GRRM says does not count as evidence than I have to ask; what does?

You guys have pointed out interesting questions about Mance, and I like this thread, but you have to be prepared that people will question your speculations. Calling us trolls just because we do not jump on the MR=RT train right away is not ok....

How would you call people who don't read the thread, ask you to repeat what you already wrote because they couldn't be bothered to read the thread, but can be bothered to "quote" a part of GRRMs answer without being bothered to find it and read it. If one wants to debate anything, one should have arguments, not one partial quote and no will to even read a counterargument. I never addressed you in person. I addressed this behaviour and it's called trolling.

[Universal Sword Donor]

How would you call people who don't read the thread, ask you to repeat what you already wrote because they couldn't be bothered to read the thread, but can be bothered to "quote" a part of GRRMs answer without being bothered to find it and read it. If one wants to debate anything, one should have arguments, not one partial quote and no will to even read a counterargument. I never addressed you in person. I addressed this behaviour and it's called trolling.

Tell me where to find the quote and I will post it for all the "trolls."

[Modesty Lannister]

Humor or at least tell me which page to find it on. I've been through 2/3 of the thread at least while posting and have yet to see it.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/49802-is-rhaegar-alive/page-17#entry5611391

Q: Who recovered Rhaegar's corpse (if anyone did it) and where was he buried (if he was buried)?

GRRM: Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens.

This has been fun, but time is passing and I have another long day tomorrow, and so I´m going to need to wind this up.

Three more questions, and let´s close.

[Metopheles]

On this board are exaclty 4 types of threads.

+Daenerys bashing threads

+Stannis fanatic threads

+normal threads with normal discussions (very rare!!)

+this. the classical "No I don't like this thread and because of that I just say the same stupid nonsense all the time to troll of the people who really want to get into that matter, because that's what I do, that's how I roll. I don't agree, I don't like, I spoil the fun for everyone else."

Why ?

[Universal Sword Donor]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/49802-is-rhaegar-alive/page-17#entry5611391

Q: Who recovered Rhaegar's corpse (if anyone did it) and where was he buried (if he was buried)?

GRRM: Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens.

This has been fun, but time is passing and I have another long day tomorrow, and so I´m going to need to wind this up.

Three more questions, and let´s close.

Ah okay. So GRRM confirms that Rhaegar is dead and then asks to end a chat that has been going on for almost two hour. That clears it up.

The quote out of context is *totally* different than in its entirety. It does an about face. You're so clever to see it!

Edit: Also you apparently managed to link back to your own quoteless post, so I will do you a solid and link to the actual source:

http://www.asshai.com/foro/search.php?search_author=George+R.R.+Martin&showresults=posts&sid=164062082719b91285f50b81abd6f9fd

[Modesty Lannister]

Ah okay. So GRRM confirms that Rhaegar is dead and then asks to end a chat that has been going on for almost two hour. That clears it up.

The quote out of context is *totally* different than in its entirety. It does an about face. You're so clever to see it!

Edit: Also you apparently managed to link back to your own quoteless post, so I will do you a solid and link to the actual source:

http://www.asshai.com/foro/search.php?search_author=George+R.R.+Martin&showresults=posts&sid=164062082719b91285f50b81abd6f9fd

It is, because GRRM didn't answer the question. If this answer satisfies you, that's fine. Many people, including myself, think that GRRM, apart from not answering who retrieved RTs body and where the body was buried, which was the actual question, said RT was cremated. Some people think he was foreshadowing book 5 in which MR gets burned (or not) or foreshadowing the very end of the saga. I think the latter. Also, it is pretty obvious he wanted to change the subject. If RT is indeed dead, what would be a problem for GRRM to say who retrieved the body and where it was buried or cremated. Effectively, GRRM just corrected the person who asked the question, saying that RT was cremated (not buried) and changed the subject.

[Consigliere]

Good point. Though how does the woman know it was silk from Asshai ? Would the label be written (most can't read) then most likely in valyrian, which no one in westeros speaks, except select nobles or maesters perhaps, certainly no wildling woman.

Another interesting thing about the cog, even if it is Westerosi, is how did it end up on the Frozen Shore which stretches west of Bear Island. In this SSM, Martin says that trading ships bound for Asshai go east through the Summer and Jade Seas and that the Sunset Sea is uncharted. IIRC, it is only Euron who claims to have crossed the Sunset Sea.

[Universal Sword Donor]

It is, because GRRM didn't answer the question. If this answer satisfies you, that's fine. Many people, including myself, think that GRRM, apart from not answering who retrieved RTs body and where the body was buried, which was the actual question, said RT was cremated. Some people think he was foreshadowing book 5 in which MR gets burned (or not) or foreshadowing the very end of the saga. I think the latter. Also, it is pretty obvious he wanted to change the subject. If RT is indeed dead, what would be a problem for GRRM to say who retrieved the body and where it was buried or cremated. Effectively, GRRM just corrected the person who asked the question, saying that RT was cremated (not buried) and changed the subject.

So he's cremated with a giant hole in his chest, just not dead. Gotcha.

[Modesty Lannister]

So he's cremated with a giant hole in his chest, just not dead. Gotcha.

The only thing you proved so far is that you like being sarcastic. And yes, we got your point ages ago. You think RT is dead. I, like many people on this thread, don't. That's why we ARE on this thread - to state our arguments for believing what we believe. So, that's out motive for writing here. What is yours?

[Universal Sword Donor]

The only thing you proved so far is that you like being sarcastic. And yes, we got your point ages ago. You think RT is dead. I, like many people on this thread, don't. That's why we ARE on this thread - to state our arguments for believing what we believe. So, that's out motive for writing here. What is yours?

To state my arguments as to why he's dead, per the author's words, and then read the entire quote you kept referencing but never actually linked to.

Now I need to figure out if Rhaegar had an egg with him when he was cremated. Only death can pay for life.

[-Ghost-]

How can George answer where Rhaegar was burried if he wasnt burried? He instead answers that he was cremated. How is that avoiding the question?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

In simple words: A theory is a collection of facts for the purpose of explanation of a certain topic. Whether or not a theory can be taken serious depends on the collected data and it's evaluation. Some so called theories can be dismissed easily, because some so called theories are BS (pardon my french). R+L=J cannot be used as a litmus test for other "theories", I agree on that. Yet, we need to be real here and look at what the text gives us and not get overly excited about speculations.

I do not disagree that you can base your arguments on anything, but if you do that, then you need to accept the possibility of not being taken serious by others. That's just the way it is.... Arguments work best when based on facts and not on fiction....

Proof is the establishment of truth. Something is either true or it is not. Proof is not something to be interpreted. None of what was presented here is proof, because we simply cannot tell if this whole assumption is true!

Other than that, I think it is great that you encourage people to look at things from a different perspective!!!! :D

That's why I came to this forum :)

And I think a lot about Mance lately... :)

Thanks for your response Sylva.

Who says we need to be real? This is the internet we're talking about. ;)

Until the next book is available what else do we have to get excited about? :D I view theories as an exercise in imagination as much as analysis and debate. Without imagination this series wouldn't even exist, and I meet so many people who don't seem to have any imagination that I worry about the world sometimes. I don't much care for the attitude that everyone who proposes something has to have a year's worth of notes to back it up and must "prove" what in the middle of the series cannot technically be proven (I really only see a few people on this site who are like that though). Asking for evidence is totally fine, but demanding proof is silly at this point.

"Arguments work best when based on facts and not fiction." I understand your point but I had to smile at that because we happen to be talking about fiction. :D

I never said it was proof. I routinely make distinctions between evidence and proof. My point to The Titan's Bastard is that nobody seems to agree on what constitutes evidence in this case. When something is proven we all tend to agree that it is.

This theory has a lot more going for it than some others (*cough* Ned is alive *cough*) and if Rhaegar turns out to be alive in spite of the cremation remark, Mance is one of the best candidates for an identity he assumed.

Again, thanks for your thoughtful response. :)

[Universal Sword Donor]

How can George answer where Rhaegar was burried if he wasnt burried? He instead answers that he was cremated. How is that avoiding the question?

You see, Rhaegar might have been crushed with a warhammer and cremated, but that doesn't mean he died. Thoros of Myr wasn't at KL. He was at the Trident in case Rhaegar actually died. When he went to give Rhaegar the kiss of life, he accidentally blew the ashes into the wind but Rhaegar was immediately reconstituted as a dust man. It's kind of like The Mummy. We just have to wait for the proof in the text.

[FittleLinger]

It is, because GRRM didn't answer the question. If this answer satisfies you, that's fine. Many people, including myself, think that GRRM, apart from not answering who retrieved RTs body and where the body was buried, which was the actual question, said RT was cremated. Some people think he was foreshadowing book 5 in which MR gets burned (or not) or foreshadowing the very end of the saga. I think the latter. Also, it is pretty obvious he wanted to change the subject. If RT is indeed dead, what would be a problem for GRRM to say who retrieved the body and where it was buried or cremated. Effectively, GRRM just corrected the person who asked the question, saying that RT was cremated (not buried) and changed the subject.

He did, though. "Keep reading, it will be revealed later" would've been a perfectly acceptable answer if he was trying to be ambigous.

He answers one thing with certainty - Rhaegar Targaryen was cremated.

That was the first question asked. This makes the latter ones, which are pretty much "who buried him" redundant, as he wasn't buried. Also, it shows that it probably means he never gave it too much thought.

Think of the other example with a knight with another's armor - Garlan Tyrell with Renly's. Everyone with a little sense and a little closer to the affairs, knows he wasn't Renly. And he didn't even die.

ETA: Saying he was smashed in the face, thus being unrecognazible, is simply unfounded in the text. Nothing shows as much, everyone is talking about the blow to the chest.

We have a precedent here as well - Aegon - who is often referred as smashed to pulp and unrecognizeble. He is the one who resurfaces in the story, but we have a well established "unrecognazible" motive. And even he is probably fake.