Is Rhaegar alive?!?

[Viking]

There is alot of evidence but that discussion should be taken to the R+L=J thread. What I will say is that R+L=J is a circumstantial case based largely on symbolism, subtext and foreshadowing that point to it.

Eta. As I've stated before, my main issue with MR=RT is that it makes too many assumptions that we have to just blindly accept in order for the theory to ring plausible.

And I'm saying all the R+L=J evidence is circumstantial and conjecture too. That story too makes lots of assumptions that we have to accept in order for them to be plausible.

[Sylva Santagar]

I do not have a problem with MR=RT, too.

But there is sooooo much that needs further explanation.

There is more to Mance than we know about, I am willing to accept that right away.

But please let's be real here...

So, if Rhaegar is Mance.... Who died at the Trident???

That's one to start with...

[Viking]

I do not have a problem with MR=RT, too.

But there is sooooo much that needs further explanation.

There is more to Mance than we know about, I am willing to accept that right away.

But please let's be real here...

So, if Rhaegar is Mance.... Who died at the Trident???

That's one to start with...

Jonothor Darry or Richard Lonmouth?

[Metopheles]

I do not have a problem with MR=RT, too.

But there is sooooo much that needs further explanation.

There is more to Mance than we know about, I am willing to accept that right away.

But please let's be real here...

So, if Rhaegar is Mance.... Who died at the Trident???

That's one to start with...

I think the best guess, no logic, would be one of those people that were at the Tower of Joy.

Hightower, Whent or Dayne. All of these were able fighters at Rhaegar's level and therefore good individuals to be his double. Also, he was there not long ago and could have given them the armour and the glamour(which wouldn't even be needed, as Varys' pisswater prince was also without glamour. Once the face is smashed, which Robert surely did)

Also, Ned must have known, otherwise this whole "Jon go to the NW, it's cool" but then stating to Varys "NW is shit, I wouldn't go there" would be super illogical.

It would be the only good reason for Ned to tell his beloved son to go to the NW to find his father, because Ned himself isn't so high about the NW.

[Modesty Lannister]

There is alot of evidence but that discussion should be taken to the R+L=J thread. What I will say is that R+L=J is a circumstantial case based largely on symbolism, subtext and foreshadowing that point to it.

Eta. As I've stated before, my main issue with MR=RT is that it makes too many assumptions that we have to just blindly accept in order for the theory to ring plausible.

Have you read this thread?

[johndance]

I think the best guess, no logic, would be one of those people that were at the Tower of Joy.

Hightower, Whent or Dayne. All of these were able fighters at Rhaegar's level and therefore good individuals to be his double. Also, he was there not long ago and could have given them the armour and the glamour(which wouldn't even be needed, as Varys' pisswater prince was also without glamour. Once the face is smashed, which Robert surely did)

Also, Ned must have known, otherwise this whole "Jon go to the NW, it's cool" but then stating to Varys "NW is shit, I wouldn't go there" would be super illogical.

It would be the only good reason for Ned to tell his beloved son to go to the NW to find his father, because Ned himself isn't so high about the NW.

I'm not on board with this. I actually think it's quite logical that Ned would think the NW is shit for himself but be fine with sending Jon. Ned is the lord of Winterfell. To anyone who is a lord and accustomed to that lifestyle the NW is going to look like shit. From Ned's perspective, here is Jon, who is a bastard who can't inherent anything and really is searching for his place in life, and who also is hated by his wife. Ned also has his brother at the NW to 'look out after' Jon in a sense. Jon is the one that wants to go to the NW. Again, from Ned's perspective because of all this, the NW starts to look appealing for Jon. It's just as simple as that. Logically, makes sense.

If this doesn't do it for you, another reason, which imo is less likely but certainly would make sense has to do with if R+L=J is true. Best way for Ned to keep his promise and protect Jon? Agree to allow him to go to the NW. Once a man of the NW, Jon renounces all claims, titles, etc. So now Jon has no claim to the Targs or the IT. No reason for people to want to kill him if who he really is gets revealed. No reason for Jon to get a pipe dream about that stuff either and do something dangerous. It worked for Aemon, could work for Jon, too.

[Consigliere]

And I'm saying all the R+L=J evidence is circumstantial and conjecture too. That story too makes lots of assumptions that we have to accept in order for them to be plausible.

The difference being that the MR=RT theory makes too many assumptions without any textual evidence to back it up. The very basis of the theory is that Rhaegar convinced a Person X to wear a glamour, go to the Trident and face off against the rebel forces. Rhaegar then wears a glamour or disguises himself and assumes the Mance Raydar identity, heads north to The Wall and joins the NW. Is there a shred of textual evidence to support this claim?

Have you read this thread?

Yes, I have.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The difference being that the MR=RT theory makes too many assumptions without any textual evidence to back it up. The very basis of the theory is that Rhaegar convinced a Person X to wear a glamour, go to the Trident and face off against the rebel forces. Rhaegar then wears a glamour or disguises himself and assumes the Mance Raydar identity, heads north to The Wall and joins the NW. Is there a shred of textual evidence to support this claim?

There could be. We have two books left.

Actually it depends on what you consider to be evidence. Example: if the red and black cape he won't give up is evidence, well there's something right there and it's in the text. If you don't consider that to be evidence then to you it won't count. Different people are convinced by different things.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

BTW, on the topic of GRRM speaks, has he at any point said that Jon is Ned's Bastard son?

Nope. He's danced around that rather effectively. When asked who named certain characters he said that "most likely" Daenerys was named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, and Jon by Ned. Specifically avoided referring to Ned as Jon's father.

[Facebookless Man]

I hope this forum never disappears. Even long after the last book is out.

It is a testimony to, umm, something.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I hope this forum never disappears. Even long after the last book is out.

It is a testimony to, umm, something.

:lol: :agree:

[Metopheles]

I'm not on board with this. I actually think it's quite logical that Ned would think the NW is shit for himself but be fine with sending Jon. Ned is the lord of Winterfell. To anyone who is a lord and accustomed to that lifestyle the NW is going to look like shit. From Ned's perspective, here is Jon, who is a bastard who can't inherent anything and really is searching for his place in life, and who also is hated by his wife. Ned also has his brother at the NW to 'look out after' Jon in a sense. Jon is the one that wants to go to the NW. Again, from Ned's perspective because of all this, the NW starts to look appealing for Jon. It's just as simple as that. Logically, makes sense.

If this doesn't do it for you, another reason, which imo is less likely but certainly would make sense has to do with if R+L=J is true. Best way for Ned to keep his promise and protect Jon? Agree to allow him to go to the NW. Once a man of the NW, Jon renounces all claims, titles, etc. So now Jon has no claim to the Targs or the IT. No reason for people to want to kill him if who he really is gets revealed. No reason for Jon to get a pipe dream about that stuff either and do something dangerous. It worked for Aemon, could work for Jon, too.

If R+L=J is true, and Ned knows it and thinks the best thing would be to send Jon to the Wall, to destroy his claim, then Ned should be resurrected by Thoros and then burned by Melisandre.

Because this would make Ned the single most awful person in the history of literature. A man who promises to save his sister's son, the prince, and sends him to the doom of this claim. No, now that is a son of a bitch then. Just saying. Would you like that as an outcome at the end ? Because for now, this is it. Ned send the prince to destroy his claim. The only thing that would set it right that Ned send him there, would be so that he meets his true father.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

The only thing that would set it right that Ned send him there, would be so that he meets his true father.

What a stupid theory

Once again...THE AUTHOR SAID RHAEGAR WAS CREMATED LIKE ALL FALLEN TARGS.

Jesus, if that really doesn't stop you from believing it, nothing will.

GRRM hints at things all the time, yet for this he was pretty clear...Rhaegar was cremated.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Have you read this thread?

Have you read the author plainly stating that Rhaegar was cremated?

I guess we should ignore him for some Rhaegar fanboy/fangirls to have their little theories?

[Metopheles]

Have you read the author plainly stating that Rhaegar was cremated?

I guess we should ignore him for some Rhaegar fanboy/fangirls to have their little theories?

Hate to break this to you, but people lie. All the time.

If I were an author of a series that builds on these plot twists, oh, I would lie day and night, all to keep the twists for the right moment.

Like I said, many literary characters died and are resurrected again, or not even have been dead. Monte Cristo, Dantes was dead. Darth Vader(my favourite example here), Anakin was dead, from a certain point of view. Just like Rhaegar. Rhaegar is dead. But the moment the crown prince died, Mance Rayder, the King-Beyond-The-Wall was born.

The Bride from Kill Bill, was shot in the head, but was alive, Otomo died in Outrage to be returned out of prison incognito.

Michael Townly was dead, but Michael DeSanta was born.

The best way to take a new identity is to kill the old one. By any means required.

It all depends on a certain point of view. Rhaegar is dead. But Mance is alive since the other's death.

And Martin would be stupid to say outright, if questioned if they are the same :

"Oh uh, ah, yea. Shit you found that out so quickly. Guess I could cut three chapters of the book now, cuz you already knows, aye?"

-.-

One does not simply reveal a plot twist 5 years before it is written. Who would buy the books if the author tells all the twists beforehand ?

Come on, R+L=J would never be revealed beforehand, and still the complete forum here is unanimous that it is true. Even if Martin would write a new book about how it is not true, we would still know that it is.

Authors lie to protect the story.

Nobody asked Lucas if Vader was Luke's father and Leia his sister after the first film and got the answer "YES" from Lucas.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Hate to break this to you, but people lie. All the time.

If I were an author of a series that builds on these plot twists, oh, I would lie day and night, all to keep the twists for the right moment.

Like I said, many literary characters died and are resurrected again, or not even have been dead. Monte Cristo, Dantes was dead. Darth Vader(my favourite example here), Anakin was dead, from a certain point of view. Just like Rhaegar. Rhaegar is dead. But the moment the crown prince died, Mance Rayder, the King-Beyond-The-Wall was born.

The Bride from Kill Bill, was shot in the head, but was alive, Otomo died in Outrage to be returned out of prison incognito.

Michael Townly was dead, but Michael DeSanta was born.

Nobody asked Lucas if Vader was Luke's father and Leia his sister after the first film and got the answer "YES" from Lucas.

He legit hints at things in interviews, like Aegon being alive, yet Rhaegar he'd outright lie about it? He never has lied about this type of thing, or else he'd evade the question like he usually does.

Hey, if you want to believe it, go ahead...i'd rather take his word over a bunch of random shit that doesn't amount to actual proof except the hopes and wishes of Rhaegar fans.

GRRM didn't just say he died, he said he was CREMATED. That's a pretty definitive answer.

[Steelcan]

I won't say no since there is always an outside chance

But probably not

[Metopheles]

He legit hints at things in interviews, like Aegon being alive, yet Rhaegar he'd outright lie about it? He never has lied about this type of thing, or else he'd evade the question like he usually does.

Hey, if you want to believe it, go ahead...i'd rather take his word over a bunch of random shit that doesn't amount to actual proof except the hopes and wishes of Rhaegar fans.

But if you aren't open for theories and are only able to reply in hate and be straight against it, why bother and watch/comment in such threads ?

Why are you even talking to such "nutjobs" like me ?

And if you ask "is he alive?" and any other answer comes than "no" then you can be certain he is alive. So to keep him "dead" the only answer you can give is "yes he is dead". Or how would you evade such a question without accidentally answering it?

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

But if you aren't open for theories and are only able to reply in hate and be straight against it, why bother and watch/comment in such threads ?

Why are you even talking to such "nutjobs" like me ?

And if you ask "is he alive?" and any other answer comes than "no" then you can be certain he is alive. So to keep him "dead" the only answer you can give is "yes he is dead". Or how would you evade such a question without accidentally answering it?

He did it with Aegon....by saying "oh that's what you think?"....so yes, he does hint/evade when necessary about dead characters coming back

And i reply because it makes no sense, and it's a forum...you expected everyone to agree with you? The author didn't just say Rhaegar died, he said he was cremated. Why the hell would he even add that if their was a chance he's alive?

You're not a "nutjob", just a fan hoping a character comes back...i just happen to disagree and side with the author literally saying he was cremated.

[Consigliere]

There could be. We have two books left.

Actually it depends on what you consider to be evidence. Example: if the red and black cape he won't give up is evidence, well there's something right there and it's in the text. If you don't consider that to be evidence then to you it won't count. Different people are convinced by different things.

You cannot base an argument on something that may or may not appear in future books.

What I would like to know is how does the red and black cloak point to Mance being Rhaegar. Mance did not have that particular cloak all along. According to Mance a wilding woman mended his NW cloak with scarlet silk from Asshai. It is equally possible that the cloak held sentimental value to him since that woman nursed him back to health and the scarlet silk was the greatest treasure she had yet she gifted it to him.

Furthermore the example I used in my previous post is the starting point of this theory yet there is nothing in the existing text that points toward it. Without at least some textual evidence to support the starting point this theory does not even get off the ground.