Defending a Dothraki invasion

[PSHorton]

For those who compare the dothraki to the Mongols, it is important to remember that the Mongols were a lot more willing to borrow culture and technology. Without the Chinese siege engines the Mongols would have been unable to take the fortified Muslim cities. i don't think the dothraki are that willing to take others technology, plus as has been said, they would be hindered a great deal on most of the terrain. They have no chance in hell of even taking the Iron Islands, and Dorne and the North would also probably kill them. Finally their close range weapons are almost useless, as we see when Barristan fights the valyrian steel arakh

Very VERY true. I've been operating under the assumption that they would starve the Westerosi out. Mongols, during Ghengis Khan's invasion of China, liked to herd all the neighboring peasants into cities, thereby rapidly expending their food stores. They also had no qualms with just burning the place down and going on their merry way.

If Dany or Rahego were in charge, I'm sure they would figure out siege engines pretty quick. If not, and the Dothraki actually tried to assault a fortress, it would be a a disaster for them.

[PSHorton]

well that would need to be backed up.

horse archers by necessity have smaller bows, and being mounted, they make far larger targets, so even if the ranges are similar...

Solid point. The question still remains though, would Westeros have enough archers? Maybe on the whole continent yes, but in one army, probably not. The Western warrior ethos causes them to despise archery (Jaime comments on this at one point) whereas the Dothraki would have upwards of 20-30,000 archers.

Also, a regular infantry bow actually has LESS range than a steppe cavalry bow. So unless those are all longbows, bad news for Westeros. At Kalka river the mongols supposedly laughed at the weak range of the russian archers.

[PSHorton]

The best chance for Westeros would lie in Dorne. Those guys probably have good enough light cavalry to compete. (Interesting political ramifications for Dorne, eh?) As I said earlier, the Egyptians have great success against the Mongols at Ain Jalut, basically beating them at their own game. (Though to be fair, at that point the mongol army wasn't what it used to be)

[Terilien]

Solid point. The question still remains though, would Westeros have enough archers? Maybe on the whole continent yes, but in one army, probably not. The Western warrior ethos causes them to despise archery (Jaime comments on this at one point) whereas the Dothraki would have upwards of 20-30,000 archers.

Well archery was looked down upon by westerners in our world too, but we can't take that to imply that we lacked archers in so great a quantity. Anywho the warrior ethos only really affects knights who make up a mere 10 percent of westerosi armies.

i should reiterate that sieges are important.

And i'll cite ned, who didn't consider the dothraki a threat whatsoever xD.

[PSHorton]

Well archery was looked down upon by westerners in our world too, but we can't take that to imply that we lacked archers in so great a quantity. Anywho the warrior ethos only really affects knights who make up a mere 10 percent of westerosi armies.

i should reiterate that sieges are important.

I meant both the fictional west and the real one. Should have clarified that. While it's true that knights make up a small percent of a given army, they ARE in charge, Europeans got three chances at the mongols and made the same mistake every time.

There is a famous story where Richard the Lionheart had to hold his knights back from charging Saladin's light cav. Instead he made them hide behind the infantry. In the end, the knights told him to shove it and charged anyway. it worked out for Richard, but similar events ended in disaster against the mongols.

Another Crusades parallel I'd like to draw is the battle of Hattin, where Saladin lured the christians away from their supply hubs and basically killed them with thirst. They typically rushed his forced when they had enough thirst and were cut down.

[PSHorton]

I would add that no Euro army in my recollection employed large amounts of archers except for England in the Hundred Years War. While it could be said that all of Westeros is analagous to England, we haven't had any indication from past battles in the War of the Five Kings that the Westerosi ever bring that many archers to the field. In fact, they're hardly mentioned.

[Ser Thomas Derpingham]

I would add that no Euro army in my recollection employed large amounts of archers except for England in the Hundred Years War. While it could be said that all of Westeros is analagous to England, we haven't had any indication from past battles in the War of the Five Kings that the Westerosi ever bring that many archers to the field. In fact, they're hardly mentioned.

Lord Howland "Howling Mad" Reed of Greywater Watch is hardly mentioned, but he's the most powerful Offscreen Player so far. I'll hold out hope for...oh, say, Northern Archers with frighteningly large longbows, hewn from godly wood? Commanded by Rickon, even?

Agincourt in Westeros. Watch it happen.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

King Robb's description in the show was a little pessimistic. The Westerosi can hole up in the castles and towns and the dothraki won't get to them. The Roman Empire employed such tactics to great effect against the Goths towards the end of the empire. Nobles like the Dorne will likely resist joining sides with the foreign barbarians that are torching land and killing peasants, especially as victory would not be easy. Even if the lower classes start viewing Targs as rightfull rulers as long as the military class doesn't then nothing changes.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

- The Dothraki would need to cross the Narrow Sea. 40,000 men would probably need at least 200 ships. Their mounts would need at least 2000 ships. Their remounts would need 20,000 ships. Their families would need... you get the meaning. And there is a nice little Royal Fleet in the Narrow Sea who would love to drown some Dothraki.

- Westeros isn't Essos. More wood, more mountains, more of everything but grazing plains. The Dothraki would have to split up several times or starve their horses.

- The Dothraki don't use siege. Every shitty little castle would cost them dearly or stay a danger in their back.

- The Dothraki don't use heavy cavalry. Bad times against anybody NOT being as incompetent as them.

- The Dothraki are at a 1:10 numerical disadvantage.

- Everybody would hate them and unite against them.

- These funny little fords and bridges crossing all the streams in Westeros? Almost untakeable for the Dothraki without heavy cavalry or decent infantry.

- Winter is coming, bare-chested riders on summer mounts won't last.

- And lastly, judging from their tactic at Quohor, the Dothraki are incompetent tacticians.

In short order, comparing them to mongols is an insult to the mongols. The Dothraki would have ceased to exist as a people if they had invaded Westeros*.

* admittedly, scattering several thousand defeated raiders through the continent to wreak havoc would severely weaken Roberts authority.But that wouldn't do the DOTHRAKI any good.

[Silverin]

First I am not a real expert when it comes to war, but to me the Dothraki and a possible Dothraki invasion is not the same as the the Mongols or the Mongol invasion was.

1. As others said, Mongols were accustomed to winter and even liked to attack during winter. The Dothraki never even saw snow, and are going around half naked I don't see any reasonable argument why they would be able to endure it and could function in the North.

2. Europe back then is not the same as Westeros. For example in the eastern region (which mainly suffered from the invasion) there were not many stone fortress, they were mainly built from wood and mud, compard to Westeos, where there are lot of stone castles.

Moreover, the Eastern Europeans, while feudal and sharing similar technology to the Western European states, did not share the same Roman and Greek-influenced tradition of disciplined heavy infantry. ^[29] The Mongols did have success in luring the Hungarians to break their ranks at Legnica, but whether these tactics could have been successfully repeated against veteran infantrymen farther west in the Holy Roman Empire is up for debate.

Not to mention the Mongols had siege weapons compared to the Dothraki's. For exmple when the first Mongol Invasion happaned against Hungary (1241) well it was an uter loss for my country, but then the Khan died so they went back, but when the Mongols came back later 1280s,

As with later invasions, it was repelled handily, the Mongols losing much of their invading force. The outcome could not have contrasted more sharply with the 1241 invasion, mostly due to the reforms of Béla IV, which included advances in military tactics and, most importantly, the widespread building of stone castles, both responses to the defeat of the Hungarian Kingdom in 1241.

3. The Mongols knew the terrain! Years before the invasion they spent spies so they could be prepaired and gather as many information as possible, so the terrain would not be foreign to them, and actually had battle strategies, the Dothraki has absolutly no war strategy beside we attack pillage and rape.

4. The Mongols never had to bring all their soldiers across any sea in order to invade Europe.

5. I am no expert in weaponary but how the hell would the Dothraki arakh or what work in close combat against a knight? Well Jorah did kill off that one guy easily. And weren't the Mongols way more advanced? I just read, the Mongols did wear armor! They were not halfnaked like the Dothraki.

The basic costume of the Mongol fighting man consisted of a heavy coat fastened at the waist by a leather belt. From the belt would hang his sword, dagger, and possibly an axe. This long robe-like coat would double over, left breast over right, and be secured with a button a few inches below the right armpit. The coat was lined with fur. Underneath the coat, a shirt-like undergarment with long, wide sleeves was commonly worn. Silk and metallic thread were increasingly used. The Mongols wore protective heavy silk undershirts. Even if an arrow pierced their mail or leather outer garment, the arrowhead was unlikely to completely pierce the silk, thus preventing an arrow from causing deadly harm.

Lamellar armor was worn over the thick coat. The armor was composed of small scales of iron, chain mail, or hard leather sewn together with leather tongs and could weigh 10 kilograms (22 lb) if made of leather alone and more if the cuirass was made of metal scales. The leather was first softened by boiling and then coated in a crude lacquer made from pitch, which rendered it waterproof.^[8] Sometimes the soldier's heavy coat was simply reinforced with metal plates.

Helmets were cone shaped and composed of iron or steel plates of different sizes and included iron-plated neck guards. The Mongol cap was conical in shape and made of quilted material with a large turned-up brim, reversible in winter, and earmuffs. Whether a soldier's helmet was leather or metal depended on his rank and wealth.

I am sorry but it seems to me that comparing the Dothraki to the Mongols is a huge offense to the later.

[tyrion84]

Build ditches filled with spikes cowered in manure that should cripple the Dorthraki.

[Walder Waters]

The Dothraki are considered a threat to large and walled cities in Essos, so there has to be some Dothraki siege technology or tactic.

But it may be different to a fortress.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The citizens of these cities are confident that they could repel the Dothraki if necessary, but they prefer to buy them off. Furthermore, cities are relatively easy to siege compared to castles since they focus on economic advantages instead of natural defenses and building good defenses for a large city costs several fortunes more than to build five castles.

And thanks to all the guys living in a city, starvation and plague are far closer than in castles. Oh, and a siege disrupts trade and tends to be a large disadvantage for the ruling merchant class.

[Walder Waters]

So if they are only used to the siege of cities they may not have the patience for the longer siege of a castle. And there may be less to plunder. Their khal would have to deal a lot more with his own impatient warriors than his enemy.

[Lord Damian]

The Dothraki would need either all 3 dragons fighting with them or a slave land army or ally army from Westeros to help them. That last one might not be possible.

[SeanF]

The Dothraki are much less sophisticated fighters than the Mongols were under Ghengis Khan and his successors. The Mongol cavalry were organised into regular regiments, and squadrons; the Mongols were familiar with armour; they used a mix of light cavalry, armed with the traditional bows and swords, and heavy cavalry, armed with lances and axes and wearing heavier armour. They were used to close quarter fighting, as well as fighting at a distance, and their generals, like Ghengis himself, Subodai, Jebe, Kitbuqa were superb strategists and tacticians.

And, they were very adaptable. They quickly learned siege warfare from the Chinese, and recruited infantry from among the peoples they conquered.

The Dothraki are brave fighters, superb horsemen, and outstanding archers, but they don't understand siege warfare, and appear to have no tactics other than a wild charge at the enemy (which is often enough to break poor quality troops). We know, however, from Qhohor, that disciplined infantry armed with pikes can gut them.

Assuming they got to Westeros, they would be hugely outnumbered, and unable to take its cities and castles. Much of the terrain would be unsuitable for wild cavalry charges, and they would face hand to hand combat with well-trained, armoured opponents. I wouldn't rate their chances highly.

On Essos, I don't doubt that a force like the Golden Company could rout an equal number of Dothraki. Tyrion was quite correct in his comment that Pentos could rout a khalasar. So, why do the Free Cities pay them protection money? Evidently, it's cheaper than fighting them, but more than that, the Dothraki generate an endless supply of slaves for the Free Cities. There are massive vested interests in favour of remaining on good terms with the Dothraki.

[Lord Leyton]

For those who compare the dothraki to the Mongols, it is important to remember that the Mongols were a lot more willing to borrow culture and technology. Without the Chinese siege engines the Mongols would have been unable to take the fortified Muslim cities. i don't think the dothraki are that willing to take others technology, plus as has been said, they would be hindered a great deal on most of the terrain. They have no chance in hell of even taking the Iron Islands, and Dorne and the North would also probably kill them. Finally their close range weapons are almost useless, as we see when Barristan fights the valyrian steel arakh

Not to mention that the Mongols weren't completely retarded and used armour, also most if not all of the Dothraki is portrayed as horse archers while among the Mongols 4/10 warriors were heavily armoured shock troops.

[Anvilbreaker]

4. The Mongols never had to bring all their soldiers across any sea in order to invade Europe.

They tried to with Japan though. It ended badly for them. twice

[Jaehaerys Sand]

As to the points about archers, Dothraki use mainly dragonbone bows, which far outdistance and overpower normal bows. Using a lot of archers isn't going to cut it.

The best strategy would be a large scale naval battle while they are trying to cross. Certainly the dothraki would have a significant advantage due to their bows, but with no experience sailing, Westeros would still probably win.

If they did manage to win, the best strategy would be to raid their camps at night. They don't seem to have guards or build defenses, so taking them by surprise is probably the best bet.

Also, I think you guys underestimate the Dothraki a little. Robert was worried about peasant conscripts retreating out of panic, and the Dothraki WILL tear apart peasants. Plus, I think Dorne probably would ally with the Dothraki with a Targaryen leading them.

[Scipio Africanus]

Silverin already mentioned the best arguements why the Dothraki shouldn't be compared to the Mongols. The Mongols were more advanced then the Dothraki. Which turns out a blessing becaues it makes a solo invasion much less likely to succeed. If they were anywhere near as good as the Mongols (in terms of adaptability and weapon technology) Essos and Westeros would be toast.