[Book Spoilers] EP107 Early Discussion

[Mad Sweeney]

Edited...the below is my comment, I think I messed up somehow and the original post is not "blocked"...sorry OP, don't know how to detach what I did.

All I can think about during the gratuitous sex scenes is "Is this going to cost HBO viewers?" I want the show renewed again and again. I don't mind the sex, just not so much of it.

I don't see how showing boobies is going to cost HBO viewers. That's what they do and they have a long line of successful shows based around sex to show for it. If anything it will attract more viewers when word gets out that it's a character based, adult themed show and not a teen boy's geeky fantasy series.

[Mad Sweeney]

well surprise, surprise, people actually aren't so juvenile to be happy about character development being shortchanged for sexscenes.

Surprise, surprise, that was thus far the BEST and most layered character development of the show so your argument falls on deaf ears.

[Borias]

I get that Littlefingers speech was also about himself, that doesn't make the scene good though. I don't mind nudity, or sex, but when one of the characters is about to squirt on another characters face I'm wondering if I'm watching Californication or Game of Thrones. They have an hour each week, let's cut out the non essential stuff (like say, Theon paying to see Roz' poon or rather the entire Roz character) and make each minute count.

Roz is the Jar Jar Binks of Game of Thrones.

That's a bit too much. Roz has been indirectly responsible for us as the viewers to learn a good bit of information we wouldn't normally. If not for her, we would have a woefully small amount of development from Theon, or even backstory. Now it makes much more sense why he does what he does in aCoK. She's directly responsible for such a great introduction to Tyrion, and apparently well known in the north in her trade- which gives her the means to go south.

And since she's there, as other's have said, she might take over another characters role. And the scene with LF? It shows us that now and then, he does get directly involved with overseeing his investments, and gives us some of his backstory. Granted, it was done in a strange way, but it needed to be done. Who else was he going to tell?

Jar Jar had a horrible voice(borderline racist), was completely incompetent, needed rescuing more than Bella and Mary Jane Watson combined, and was designed to make the series more kid friendly. Oh, and he was the legal linchpin for the empire to take final control. They don't really compare well to each other.

[Manderly`s Personal Chef]

Why are there only 5 of the Kingsguard? And Tywin LAUGHS! Otherwise the best episode thus far.

[OhDanyBoy]

Why are there only 5 of the Kingsguard? And Tywin LAUGHS! Otherwise the best episode thus far.

5 Kingsguard in the throne room, 1 guarding Myrcella and Tommen, and Jaime has fled the city. Where is the confusion?

As for Tywin, that was a derisive and dry enough laugh that it still fits my image of the character, so I'll let it go.

[elmis]

That's a bit too much. Roz has been indirectly responsible for us as the viewers to learn a good bit of information we wouldn't normally. If not for her, we would have a woefully small amount of development from Theon, or even backstory. Now it makes much more sense why he does what he does in aCoK. She's directly responsible for such a great introduction to Tyrion, and apparently well known in the north in her trade- which gives her the means to go south.

And since she's there, as other's have said, she might take over another characters role. And the scene with LF? It shows us that now and then, he does get directly involved with overseeing his investments, and gives us some of his backstory. Granted, it was done in a strange way, but it needed to be done. Who else was he going to tell?

Jar Jar had a horrible voice(borderline racist), was completely incompetent, needed rescuing more than Bella and Mary Jane Watson combined, and was designed to make the series more kid friendly. Oh, and he was the legal linchpin for the empire to take final control. They don't really compare well to each other.

I'm not suggesting that we cut Roz and leave blank space, the time would be filled up giving the viewer the same information, just without a busty naked woman there at every turn (I can't even believe I'm typing this, I love busty naked women). Why couldn't we learn a bit more about Theon when Maester Luwin was teaching Bran about the different Houses? I mean, it's not like he's not standing there, shooting arrows. That would be character development for three major characters, rather than just one and some flopping tits.

For what it's worth, I didn't think the introduction to Tyrion was all that great.. I'd imagine that getting more whores from your brother would be somewhat of a turn off for Tyrion, when you think about their history with Tysha.

The scene with Littlefinger was not good in my opinion (it was smartly done -- but not good), not just because of the gratuitous sex, but also because it didn't feel like something Littlefinger would do. It's like the writers thought; "We need a sex scene, but we also need to have Littlefinger hint at his future actions -- how to best do that?" rather than, "We need to have Littlefinger hint at his future actions -- how to best do that?".

Lastly, the analogy I made towards Jar Jar was that he was George Lucas' clown, the character to draw in the kids. Roz is a played by a beautiful young naked actress, she's there to draw in the 18-49 male demo's that HBO want.

[Clumber]

I don't see how showing boobies is going to cost HBO viewers. That's what they do and they have a long line of successful shows based around sex to show for it. If anything it will attract more viewers when word gets out that it's a character based, adult themed show and not a teen boy's geeky fantasy series.

I disagree. Gratuitous lesbian sex makes it more "teen boy's fantasy." And throwing in random sex scenes does not make this "character based." I, for the most part, enjoy sex/nudity in my movies/shows. That scene just made me cringe though.

[Été]

Yeah I'm not a prude by any means but I thought that scene was a bit much. LF's monologue about screwing over the world in general wasn't ingenious innuendo, it was as subtle as a brick.

That said, it's hasn't ruined everything for ever, it's my only quibble with an otherwise fantastic episode.

[Mad Sweeney]

I disagree. Gratuitous lesbian sex makes it more "teen boy's fantasy." And throwing in random sex scenes does not make this "character based." I, for the most part, enjoy sex/nudity in my movies/shows. That scene just made me cringe though.

LF's double entendre monologue was the character based part of it, not the boobs. If you guys would get that straight (that the scene was about LF, not the sex), then you wouldn't have to be so hung up about it. Oh yeah, GRRM is an executive producer on it so I guess you should direct your anger at him for his gratuitous sex scene in his TV show! :lmao:

This is worse than the argument that gold shouldn't melt in a cookpot, even though GRRM wrote that gold melted in a cookpot!

BTW, fantasy as in swords and elves, not sexual fantasies. They will get more viewers by distancing themselves more from the former than from the latter. That was the comment I was responding to about this issue; that HBO will "lose viewers" because of scenes like this.

[elmis]

That said, it's hasn't ruined everything for ever, it's my only quibble with an otherwise fantastic episode.

I definitely agree with this, episode 7 was superb. The stuff I (and I assume others) are complaining about are nitpicks in the grand scheme of things. :D

[Arrogant Bastard]

Yeah I'm not a prude by any means but I thought that scene was a bit much. LF's monologue about screwing over the world in general wasn't ingenious innuendo, it was as subtle as a brick.

That said, it's hasn't ruined everything for ever, it's my only quibble with an otherwise fantastic episode.

Yeah, I thought the Lesbian action was a little gratuitous, but I liked LF's monologue. It wasn't subtle at all, but I don't think it was supposed to be. I thought his monologue got across his motivations well, something that isn't really established in the books but I think for TV it's important to know what makes him tick.

Also, I've never found LF to be a very subtle character. He was always openly distrustful, constantly mocking Ned and everyone to their face. So I don't think it was that out of character for him to tell the whores his motivations and backstory. He openly tells Ned not to trust him, [spoilerS FOR BOOK 2 and 3] blatantly shows Tyrion the knife he lied about that caused Tyrion's capture, and kisses Sansa in a spot where his wife could see. So to me, LF does all this because he knows how smart he is and he can get away with all of it, which he does. So I'm sure he knows that telling the whores his backstory will have no repercussions for him at all.

[modehead]

Surprise, surprise, that was thus far the BEST and most layered character development of the show so your argument falls on deaf ears.

This is your opinion. What did it add to Littlefingers character? That he's a scheming pimp with twisted feelings for cat? We all know that already.

[modehead]

Not really. Tissue?

Some people realy disliked it (I'm one of them.) We're entitled to our opinion.

If it was a great episode (like 5 and 6), it wouldn't have this many people complaining about it.

Wait till the AV Club gives it a C or worse and other weekly reviewers butcher it. That was horrible TV

[Wunhopkuendo]

I have finally come to terms with the LF scene I hate so much. So here is how I have reconciled it in my head: LF knows that Varys has spies everywhere. So he is less than subtle about his intentions to take down Ned so that if Varys is in any way inclined to inform Ned, LF will certainly know, as Ned would confront him on it almost instantly. Ned isn't one that would keep that information in his pocket for later use, and LF knows this. To which, LF also knows he could easily talk his way out of it and shift the blame back to Varys. So LF needs to know if Varys will indeed sell him out before he can set his betrayal plan into motion. In that regard, the scene makes perfect sense. Yeah. That's my story and I am sticking to it. Now to re-watch the scene a few more times just to make sure that is what is going on and not at all to see two hot chicks going at it.

[modehead]

Sex and violence help ratings. Then why in gods name don't you show the drunk king get gored by a wild boar? Imagine watching Star Wars, and instead of seeing Obi Wan die, you find out over the intercom. It's bad film making. There's no literary device keeping this TV show from showing Robert die, so there's no excuse.

This series is confusing for new people.

Make it simpler:

SHOW thing king dying, DONT TELL us the king died.

SHOW Littlefinger scheming, DONT TELL us through an absurdly long monologue that is cluttered by the "play with her ass" crap.

Remember how in that episode we SEE Ned find out how Joffery is not a Baratheon? We actually SEE Sansa clue him in, then see him look at the actual words. We DONT have someone TELL us that Jofferey is not the rightful heir. We see it.

Then, in the next scene, we SEE Joffery on the throne.

[modehead]

I strongly disagree with you- in any medium, finding out suddenly from Ned's PoV what happened to robert rather than seeing it creates far more suspense, surprise and emotion for me. If they'd shown him being gored I would have hated it.

Lots of people think Ned's actions are ridiculous in the books. I don't think theyve changed that. On TVWP, so far people have gotten that Ned was silly but was doing it because he was honourable. I think the scenes do highlight Ned's choices as foolish but I'm fairly sure that's diberatd and consistent with the source. If you don't like it, your problem is with Ned, not the writers.

Fair enough, but this is worth a debate:

Finding out about Robert third hand can't create suspense. It's the antithesis of suspense. Does it add intensity to Ned's feeling of impending doom. Definitely. Here's my opinion on the subject: in this TV series, we get to know Robert (almost intimately). Between the scene where he's drunk and can't get dressed, and the 1-on-1 with Cersei, he feels like a major player. For him to die off screen just doesn't seem to add suspense for me.

And yes, I have problems with Ned. His actions, spaced out over 10 weeks make him look like an idiot, which is a shame. You've seen the "Stupid Ned Stark" meme going around, right? I'm not alone in my opinion on the character.

[Mad Sweeney]

This is your opinion. What did it add to Littlefingers character? That he's a scheming pimp with twisted feelings for cat? We all know that already.

Well, it highlighted his "short man's complex" with the description of his ways versus the ways of the "stronger" men he has to fight with for his ambitious goals. It also showed that he is perfectly capable of ignoring the goods in front of him to achieve his very particular goals. He's not interested in the two women right in front of him, he's barely even looking at them as sexual objects (as they relate to him). They're tools that he's training, just like all the other people that he uses. And since they're just tools (like all the other tools he uses), once they have no value to him they can be discarded, just as Ned is. Maybe that's a little hindsight as a revelation since I've already seen the depths he goes to, but the impersonal way he treated the girls and his complete disinterest in them as people can quite easily be seen from that. I have to watch it again on the big TV after this weekend to get more, but it's not "opinion" that the scene added no character development to LF, it's just plain wrong.

[aimlessgun]

While I take all of your points Mad Sweeney, a lot of my discomfort with the scene is how it comes across to the non-readers I know. They don't see all the character development. They see lolHBO smut quota being filled and roll their eyes. If the scene has all that stuff, but doesn't communicate it, it is useless and a failure.

And of course for readers, there's the serious issue that LF frankly wouldn't be teaching whores their trade and telling them his plans.

[Impish]

If it was a great episode (like 5 and 6), it wouldn't have this many people complaining about it.

Even ignoring the problems with argumentum ad populum, are you really suggesting there were significantly less complaints about episodes 5 and 6?

Loras was too skinny and not attractive enough, Renly wasn't kingly enough, their scene was unneeded or too obvious or too explicit (slurping sounds, etc), the Theon/Roz scene was awful, Lysa wasn't fat like the books, Vardis wasn't old enough, the Robert/Cersei scene was terrible and totally out-of-character, the Varys/LF scene was terrible and totally out-of-character, the Ned/Jaime fight was way too even, the swordfighting was all terrible, the Eyrie looked unrealistic and we didn't get to see the ascent... on and on and on and on.

That's just from skimming the first couple pages of the Ep5 thread.

The only real complaints about Ep7 seem largely to do with the LF scene, and nitpicking over Tywin's introduction. And you're convinced we needed to see Robert getting gored, but clearly GRRM and the show's writers felt differently, and trusted in how things unfolded the book. I would tend to agree, and think the show is in very good hands. But that's just my opinion of course.

[Tywin's bastard]

Some people realy disliked it (I'm one of them.) We're entitled to our opinion.

If it was a great episode (like 5 and 6), it wouldn't have this many people complaining about it.

Wait till the AV Club gives it a C or worse and other weekly reviewers butcher it. That was horrible TV

Everyone are entitled to their opinions but both of you are stating opinions as facts. Not much constructive debate will come out of that.

I don't see much point in trying to point towards other things to try to validate your opinion either, especially since it doesn't really fit. Episode 5 had as much criticism as this one had (haven't read that much on episode 6 as I moved to this forum part instead) and why would anyone give a C to something that's "horrible"? C is a passing grade while horrible is about as bad as you can possibly make something.

Our opinions about art aren't more or less valid depending on how many others that think the same way.