[Book Spoilers] EP107 Early Discussion

[Arrogant Bastard]

Some people realy disliked it (I'm one of them.) We're entitled to our opinion.

If it was a great episode (like 5 and 6), it wouldn't have this many people complaining about it.

Wait till the AV Club gives it a C or worse and other weekly reviewers butcher it. That was horrible TV

I thought it was a great episode, and I don't care one iota about the people complaining about it or what grade the AV Club gives it. I can form my own opinion, just because you and others didn't like it doesn't mean it was horrible TV. And I have a feeling most reviewers are going to like this episode more than the last two; either way, it doesn't change what I thought of it.

[End of Disc One]

It seems like overall this is the best received episode yet. Modehead is almost alone in his opinion.

[Morrigan]

It continues to amuse me that sex and nudity are "juvenile" or "immature" and yet beheadings and knives through the eye are just so awesome... :rolleyes:

I don't mind the sex scenes but I was deeply disturbed by Viserys' crowning and even the knife through the eye of Jory.

You know, sometimes I feel the world would be better if more people thought like me.

Maybe because, you know, these beheadings and melted gold crowning are, I don't know... plot-relevant? :rolleyes:

[tybeechris]

I think we will get even more complaints of excessive nudity with the LF/Roz/new girl scene. As the scene started, I was thinking the same but as it progressed I felt it worked because we got to see LF's naked ambition. pun intended.

I felt that scene heavily foreshadowed that LF would betray Ned, that he would pick his ambition over doing "the right thing".

I peeked over at TWP and no one there is even mentioning all the sex. It seems to flow right along with the plot for them. For us it seems we want every minute to give us each some more info so we are trying to steal that time from the sex. As long as it does not turn them off and we have two rousing seasons I will be happy. Maybe George will get book 6 done so there will be a continuity to the TV seres. I can dream.

[Tywin's bastard]

Maybe because, you know, these beheadings and melted gold crowning are, I don't know... plot-relevant? :rolleyes:

I don't think you understood what they meant. Just as you can shoot sex scenes that don't reveal much you can also shoot death/battle scenes without any gore. The sex and the violence is about on the same relative levels in this show and the relevance to the plot doesn't differ either since the sex scenes have this far told more than the action scenes.

Note that I'm not complaining about neither the sex nor the violence, I just put it in perspective since people are right in that there's a significant double standard regarding sex and violence.

[Greywolf2375]

LF's double entendre monologue was the character based part of it, not the boobs. If you guys would get that straight (that the scene was about LF, not the sex), then you wouldn't have to be so hung up about it. Oh yeah, GRRM is an executive producer on it so I guess you should direct your anger at him for his gratuitous sex scene in his TV show! :lmao:

This is worse than the argument that gold shouldn't melt in a cookpot, even though GRRM wrote that gold melted in a cookpot!

We got it, thanks, it was as subtle as Jaime's dagger through Jory's eye.

But please, explain then how "play with her ass" and showing one whore diddle another's ass put the Littlefinger character arc forward? Is that some subtle reference to how LF was going to fuck over Ned?

[Rockroi]

But please, explain then how "play with her ass" and showing one whore diddle another's ass put the Littlefinger character arc forward? Is that some subtle reference to how LF was going to fuck over Ned?

Okay, look, I'm one of the people who actually liked the scene in terms of Littlefinger's ambitions superimposed on a sexual act. Yes, I fully admit that the sexual act itself was far too gratuitous and even a little silly. I am committed to that part of the discussion. Yes, "Play with her ass" was about as subtle as the sucking noises coming off Renly's cock in the prior episode.

At the same time, the overall message of that scene encompasses how LF can go- effortlessly -from being perceived (correctly) as a self-possessed schemer who wants only what is best for himself and somehow transform himself (in the eyes of his "partner") into somebody who is seen (incorrectly) as having scruples and morals and will do what is best for others. The whole point of the scene- once we look beyond the flapping boobs and the moans -is that Littlefinger creeps not onto you physically but into you mentally. As he states, he knows that he is "...not fooling them …" and that "they know what he is…" They know what LF is, and its his job- much like the whore's job, "to make them forget what they know… that takes time…"

By the time its all over, the customer thinks he;s actually really GOOD at this; that he has the ability- has always had the ability -to win the slut over. The slut- the Littlefinger - cannot POSSIBLY stand in the way of a man who is just so ... GOOD! After all, Ned "knows he’s better than other men..." Are we really to believe that Ned Stark did not think this? That Ned Stark had not forgotten what LF was? And that LF had not MADE him forget?

That's exactly what happened to Ned Stark. He forgot that this was a game; he was outsmarted by a slut; that the whore never changes his spots; he's always in it for himself, that its all just moans and groans and flapping gums. Its all just smoke, mirrors and cheap tricks to separate the man from his senses. As Harry Anderson used to say "Never eat at a place called 'Mom's; never play cards with a guy named 'Pops'; and a fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place."

“because what we don’t know usually is what gets us killed”

And Ned got fucked.

But what do I know; I still think the Drogo seen is laughably bad.

[Patrick Tully]

I've never really been clear on how Sansa's "betrayal" is supposed to have actually helped Cersei. Littlefinger knew way more about Ned's plans than Sansa did, and he had just hired the City Watch to side with Cersei. What information exactly did Sansa provide that Littlefinger didn't already have?

That is a point a lot of people seem to miss in the books. However, there is a part there Sansa's info was probably significant - the placing fake Stark guards on the boat to capture Arya. Had Arya not seen through the ruse, that would have been more important.

[FlipFantastic]

Man, Drogo's speech gave me chills and makes me wish he doesnt actually die. Now, I think having the Dothroki invade would have been much cooler than killing him off and having Dany wander around the free cities forever recruiting an army ball'less warriors. You blew it GRRM! The Dothroki and Drogo are kickASS, I dont expect the show to deviate from that plot line, though.

[em388480]

Okay, look, I'm one of the people who actually liked the scene in terms of Littlefinger's ambitions superimposed on a sexual act. Yes, I fully admit that the sexual act itself was far too gratuitous and even a little silly. I am committed to that part of the discussion. Yes, "Play with her ass" was about as subtle as the sucking noises coming off Renly's cock in the prior episode.

At the same time, the overall message of that scene encompasses how LF can go- effortlessly -from being perceived (correctly) as a self-possessed schemer who wants only what is best for himself and somehow transform himself (in the eyes of his "partner") into somebody who is seen (incorrectly) as having scruples and morals and will do what is best for others. The whole point of the scene- once we look beyond the flapping boobs and the moans -is that Littlefinger creeps not onto you physically but into you mentally. As he states, he knows that he is "...not fooling them …" and that "they know what he is…" They know what LF is, and its his job- much like the whore's job, "to make them forget what they know… that takes time…"

By the time its all over, the customer thinks he;s actually really GOOD at this; that he has the ability- has always had the ability -to win the slut over. The slut- the Littlefinger - cannot POSSIBLY stand in the way of a man who is just so ... GOOD! After all, Ned "knows he’s better than other men..." Are we really to believe that Ned Stark did not think this? That Ned Stark had not forgotten what LF was? And that LF had not MADE him forget?

That's exactly what happened to Ned Stark. He forgot that this was a game; he was outsmarted by a slut; that the whore never changes his spots; he's always in it for himself, that its all just moans and groans and flapping gums. Its all just smoke, mirrors and cheap tricks to separate the man from his senses. As Harry Anderson used to say "Never eat at a place called 'Mom's; never play cards with a guy named 'Pops'; and a fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place."

“because what we don’t know usually is what gets us killed”

And Ned got fucked.

But what do I know; I still think the Drogo seen is laughably bad.

I know it's your opinion, but you're just like...wrong man. The Drogo seen was actually better than the book portrayed it - and the LF scene was too much to the point of being ridiculous. I can't even think of any mainstream movies where such an awkward and filthy sex scene occurs.

[Kalbear]

Rock, I absolutely understand the subtext.

The problem for me was that having that at the beginning of the episode robbed Littlefinger's dramatic betrayal. He just told us he's going to fuck over Ned - and then he goes and fucks over Ned. SHOCKING.

I didn't think the exposition was necessary; did we need to see Littlefinger's motivations for this right now? Couldn't we have seen this next ep or something? I also thought Littlefinger coaching random whores to be...well, really beneath him. I mean...Al Swearengen owns a brothel, but could you imagine him actually telling the whores how to fuck? The exposition was okay if not a bit too early, but the actual framing of the exposition was fairly stupid.

[smegma]

Rock, I absolutely understand the subtext.

The problem for me was that having that at the beginning of the episode robbed Littlefinger's dramatic betrayal. He just told us he's going to fuck over Ned - and then he goes and fucks over Ned. SHOCKING.

I didn't think the exposition was necessary; did we need to see Littlefinger's motivations for this right now? Couldn't we have seen this next ep or something? I also thought Littlefinger coaching random whores to be...well, really beneath him. I mean...Al Swearengen owns a brothel, but could you imagine him actually telling the whores how to fuck? The exposition was okay if not a bit too early, but the actual framing of the exposition was fairly stupid.

The way I took it was just as Rockroi said, but also playing to the viewer as well. The non-book reader thinking, I can see that this guy is sleazy but he won't do that, will he? So the viewer is lulled a bit when we see him bargaining with Ned because it came across as "yes I'm a bastard but you won me this time", so when the viewer "gets fucked" with the capture of Ned, they saw it coming but hoped it wasn't the case.

Or maybe I'm just talking outta my ass. While it's being fingered, of course. :lmao:

[oneeye]

It would be too easy with Drogo staying alive, it's all about Dany leveling up and kicking butt

I don't even remember Roz from the books but I like her now ;p

[Asha—Not Yara!]

Eh, my brother hadn't read the book, and the scene didn't take away from his surprise that he betrayed Ned. He might have been too distracted though to pay attention to what LF was saying. ;)

[fall from grace]

Eh, my brother hadn't read the book, and the scene didn't take away from his surprise that he betrayed Ned. He might have been too distracted though to pay attention to what LF was saying. ;)

Were you watching it with your brother? I would think that would be pretty uncomfortable... :huh:

I'm waiting for some of my non-reader friends to see Ep. 7. I'm interested to see if that scene spoiled the surprise.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

Yeah it was a bit uncomfortable! I had no idea the opening scene was going to be like that.

[Mad Sweeney]

We got it, thanks, it was as subtle as Jaime's dagger through Jory's eye.

But please, explain then how "play with her ass" and showing one whore diddle another's ass put the Littlefinger character arc forward? Is that some subtle reference to how LF was going to fuck over Ned?

I've already answered that a few times. And it's not a reference, but coupled with his attempt to show Ned how to resolve the transition peacefully, it's certainly an indicator that it was possible. Psssst, that's called character developmen!

[Mad Sweeney]

I know it's your opinion, but you're just like...wrong man. The Drogo seen was actually better than the book portrayed it - and the LF scene was too much to the point of being ridiculous. I can't even think of any mainstream movies where such an awkward and filthy sex scene occurs.

Perhaps you forgot that you're not watching a mainstream movie. You're watching an HBO original series where they have stuff like that all the time.

[Alcarin]

Basically what Rockroi said sums up that Brothel scene 99%

I think it was awesome, the only problem i had is that i had to rewatch it twice to actually get all the story......

Just lost the story at some point watching the ladies... Damn it :P

[Rex]

Well, the way I see it, there were two reasons for the sex during LF's little exposition.

1) Yes, using the sex that was happening as a metaphor with what he was planning to do to Ned. This part pandered to the readers, who obviously already knew what was going to happen. It's sly, it's clever and it's very Littlefinger.

2) It's a distraction. Yes; I watched this with three friends and all were shocked when LF betrayed Ned. It's hard for a viewer who doesn't know the books (and even ones who do) to get distracted by what their eyes see and so not pay as much attention to what their ears pick up. In essence it's the show trying to be (and in at least three instances) succeeding to be very clever. They dangle info in front of the viewers eyes and still manage to let them not notice it.